Catalog of palms native to each USA state/territory?

[L.A.M.]

I thought it may be interesting to create a catalog of how many and which palm species are native to each of the 56 USA states and inhabited territories. Who else is on board and wants to help? Feel free to point out any errors I may have made.

So far, I've counted the following numbers of palm species native to each state and territory:

1. AK: 0
2. AL: 3
3. AR: 2
4. AS: 1
5. AZ: 1
6. CA: 1
7. CO: 0
8. CT: 0
9. DC: 0
10. DE: 0
11. FL: 11
12. GA: 4
13. GU: 2
14. HI: 1
15. IA: 0
16. ID: 0
17. IL: 0
18. IN: 0
19. KS: 0
20. KY: 0
21. LA: 2
22. MA: 0
23. MD: 0
24. ME: 0
25. MI: 0
26. MN: 0
27. MO: 0
28. MP: 2
29. MS: 3
30. MT: 0
31. NC: 2
32. ND: 0
33. NE: 0
34. NH: 0
35. NJ: 0
36. NM: 0
37. NV: 1
38. NY: 0
39. OH: 0
40. OK: 1
41. OR: 0
42. PA: 0
43. PR: 10
44. RI: 0
45. SC: 4
46. SD: 0
47. TN: 1
48. TX: 3
49. UT: 0
50. VA: 1
51. VI: 1
52. VT: 0
53. WA: 0
54. WI: 0
55. WV: 0
56. WY: 0

All in all, 16 of 50 states and 5 of 6 territories have at least one native palm, bringing the total to 21 of 56. The District of Columbia is the only territory without them, and New Mexico is the only Sun Belt state without them. On the other hand, California, Nevada and Virginia have one palm species each despite being (mostly) outside of the Sun Belt.

1. AL: Alabama has three native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and Serenoa.
2. AR: Arkansas has two native palm species - Sabal minor and Serenoa.
3. AS: American Samoa has one native palm species - Cocos nucifera.
4. AZ: Arizona has one native palm species - Washingtonia filifera.
5. CA: California has one native palm species - Washingtonia filifera. California is one of only three states mostly outside of the Sun Belt to have a native palm species.
6. FL: Florida has eleven native palm species, which is the most of any state or territory and only state in the double-digits - Acoelorraphe wrightii, Coccothrinax argentata, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Rhapidophyllum, Roystonea regea, Sabal etonia, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto, Serenoa, Thrinax morrisii and Thrinax radiata. https://pinellas.fnpschapters.org/native-plant-profiles/palms/
7. GA: Georgia has four native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto and Serenoa.
8. GU: Guam has two native palm species - Cocos nucifera and Nypa fruticans. N. fruticans isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally.
9. HI: Hawaii has only one native palm species - Pritchardia affinis. It's only native to the little-known Northwest Hawaiian islands, which briefly confused me into thinking Hawaii has two native palm species when I finally learned about the island of Nihoa.
10. LA: Louisiana has two native palm species - Sabal minor and Serenoa. Sabal louisiana could be considered a separate species from Sabal minor due to its taller trunk, but the consensus seems to be that it's a subspecies or variant of S. minor instead.
11. MP: The Northern Mariana Islands have two native palm species - Cocos nucifera and Nypa fruticans. N. fruticans isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally.
12. MS: Mississippi has three native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and Serenoa.
13. NC: North Carolina has two native palm species - Sabal minor and Sabal palmetto. North Carolina has the northernmost formally documented S. minor and only ones above 35 degrees North latitude, although in reality there are undocumented ones equally far north in Tennessee and even further north in Virginia.
14. NV: Nevada has one native palm species - Washingtonia filifera. Nevada is one of only three states mostly outside of the Sun Belt to have a native palm species. Furthermore, this palm is only known to be native to one county in the southeastern corner of Nevada: Clark.
15. OK: Oklahoma has only one native palm species - Sabal minor. This palm is only known to be native to one county in the southeastern corner of Oklahoma: McCurtain.
16. PR: Puerto Rico has ten native palm species, which is the most of any area besides Florida and only territory in the double-digits - Acrocormia media, Aiphanes acanthophylla, Calyptronorma rivalis, Coccothrinax alta, Gaussia attenuata, Prestoea montana, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Roystonea borinquena, Sabal causiaram and Thrinax morrisii. https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/v28n4p168-172.pdf
17. SC: South Carolina has four native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto and Serenoa.
18. TN: Tennessee has one native palm species - Sabal minor. S. minor isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally.
19. TX: Texas has three native palm species - Sabal brazoriensis, Sabal mexicana and Sabal minor. S. brazoriensis is believed to be an ancient natural hybrid of S. minor and Sabal palmetto with the former's extra cold-hardiness and latter's tree size, and genetic analysis ruled out a close relation to S. mexicana. Contrary to some sources, Sabal palmetto is not known to exist naturally in Texas in the modern day; furthermore, it can be easily confused with S. brazoriensis and S. mexicana to a casual observer.
20. VA: Virginia has one native palm species - Sabal minor. S. minor isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally. Furthermore, Virginia is one of only three states mostly outside of the Sun Belt and only one entirely outside of it to have a native palm species; it's also the coldest state/territory to on average and slightly colder than Delaware, the District of Columbia and Kentucky which don't, in addition to being two degrees colder than Tennessee (the next-coldest area with a native palm species). Last but not least, Virginia's native palms are the northernmost in the country; those in Arizona, California and Nevada only reach the latitude of North Carolina and Tennessee.
21. VI: The United States Virgin Islands have only one native palm species - Coccothrinax alta.

[Xerarch]

Looks like a pretty good list, you pretty much addressed my concerns in your comments, namely that no palms are native to Tennessee or Virginia, but you explained the rational in the comments.  Another possible exception,  at least that someone might argue, is Nevada, not everyone accepts the Moapa population as native although I believe the evidence is pretty good for it.  Funny that Florida has more native palms than Puerto Rico, PR is missing the more temperate species that Florida has, also interesting that the nearby USVI only has 1, I would not have thought that given their location but I hadn't looked into that either.  Nice job

[L.A.M.]

2 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Looks like a pretty good list, you pretty much addressed my concerns in your comments, namely that no palms are native to Tennessee or Virginia, but you explained the rational in the comments.  Another possible exception,  at least that someone might argue, is Nevada, not everyone accepts the Moapa population as native although I believe the evidence is pretty good for it.  Funny that Florida has more native palms than Puerto Rico, PR is missing the more temperate species that Florida has, also interesting that the nearby USVI only has 1, I would not have thought that given their location but I hadn't looked into that either.  Nice job

Thanks for your input! Yeah, I expected the most backlash for Tennessee and Virginia, possibly Nevada too, but I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. Besides, even the spotty USDA records show Washingtonia filifera in Clark County, and Sabal minor is hard to see from roads even where it's common in the wild with documented populations in counties along the Tennessee and Virginia borders as it is. Those three states are heavily disputed but, with detailed analysis, all likely true.

[L.A.M.]

Apparently I was mistaken. Many species of Pritchardia are native to various parts of Hawaii. It's too late to edit it now, though!

[L.A.M.]

It should say the following now if only I could edit it. Also, the number beside Hawaii should be 21, not 1.

FL: Florida has eleven native palm species, which is the only mainland state in the double-digits - Acoelorraphe wrightii, Coccothrinax argentata, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Rhapidophyllum, Roystonea regea, Sabal etonia, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto, Serenoa, Thrinax morrisii and Thrinax radiata. Pinellas Chapter FNPS

HI: Hawaii has twenty-one native palm species, all in the genus Pritchardia - Pritchardia affinis, P. arecina, P. aylmer-robinsonii, P. beccariana, P. forbesiana, P. glabrata, P. hardyi, P. hillebrandii, P. kaalae, P. lanaiensis, P. lowreyana, P. martii, P. minor, P. munroi, P. napaliensis, P. perlmanii, P. remota, P. schattaueri, P. viscosa, P. waialealeana and P. woodii. This is the most of any state or territory.

PR: Puerto Rico has ten native palm species, which is the most of any area besides Florida or Hawaii and only territory in the double-digits - Acrocormia media, Aiphanes acanthophylla, Calyptronorma rivalis, Coccothrinax alta, Gaussia attenuata, Prestoea montana, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Roystonea borinquena, Sabal causiaram and Thrinax morrisii. https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/v28n4p168-172.pdf

[awkonradi]

I look forward to a similar analysis for the 26 states and one federal district in Brazil!

[RFun]

I'm always skeptical of any lists on what palm is native to a given area.  That's a very difficult question to answer with thousands of years having passed by.  Numerous shifts in the earth's terrain and it's vegetation have occurred in that time span (along with the climactic shifts).  I'm reluctant to make any comment on this subject.

Edited October 23, 2023 by RFun

[Jim in Los Altos]

Great list! However there are 24 separate Pritchardia species on the Hawaiian Islands. 

[SeanK]

Has someone documented Serenoa native to Arkansas? I'm not convinced about it being in AL or MS, either. 

[L.A.M.]

7 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Great list! However there are 24 separate Pritchardia species on the Hawaiian Islands. 

I counted 21. The list could well be incomplete, though. Which ones did I miss? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pritchardia

6 hours ago, SeanK said:

Has someone documented Serenoa native to Arkansas? I'm not convinced about it being in AL or MS, either. 

I don't know, but multiple sources cite Arkansas and Louisiana as the western boundary. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, given the suitable soil/climate and its small size. Besides, saw palmettos were common in longleaf pine savannas, which used to exist in the coastal plains of those four states. I even listed Sabal minor as present in Tennessee and Virginia despite the lack of formal documentation given the absence of evidence to the contrary, sheer number of rural places along Tennessee's southern border they could plausibly be (not to mention that there's a population of them recently plainly visible in downtown Hornsby) and difficulty in properly exploring the Great Dismal Swamp. Remember, dwarf palmettos and saw palmettos are both so small that they don't really stand out in the swamps, jungles and savannas from roads and so slow-growing that they take decades to really recover in newly urbanized areas; I couldn't even see the Cherokee nor McCurtain palmettos in street view no matter how hard I tried and struggle to find plainly visible dwarf palmettos in Arkansas and North Carolina (in both of which it's long been common knowledge that they're common and widespread). If there are plainly visible wild dwarf palmettos in Tennessee and I can't find the wild ones in Oklahoma nor North Alabama nor easily find them in the right parts of Arkansas or North Carolina, I see no more reason to believe that Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi are devoid of saw palmettos than I do to believe that Nevada is devoid of California fan palms and Virginia devoid of dwarf palmettos - which is to say no reason at all. Most land is privately owned even in desert, rainforest and swampland areas, and views from roads and urban areas are limited overall and deceptive due to the disturbance.

[aabell]

AL, MS, and LA all have good records of Serenoa occuring, only near the gulf though.

The most reliable sources cite Lake Pontchartrain as the westernmost extent of Serenoa repens range, with a few websites listing Texas as well, although I don't see any collection data. Nowhere do I see any evidence or claim for Arkansas, which is quite far from the coast. 

If course new things are found all the time, hiding deep in a swamp on private land etc., but palms are large charismatic plants after all, so I am skeptical of pushing the known ranges past where they are well documented. In other words, if there was actually Serenoa growing wild in Arkansas, someone would have noticed by now. 

 

[SeanK]

Serenoa likes fast-draining, sandy soils. It won't grow in muck or red clay. Years back there were some small ones growing on sand berms along I20 west of Augusta, GA. Soil seems to be a limiting factor for range with saw palmetto.

[RFun]

5 hours ago, SeanK said:

Serenoa likes fast-draining, sandy soils. It won't grow in muck or red clay. Years back there were some small ones growing on sand berms along I20 west of Augusta, GA. Soil seems to be a limiting factor for range with saw palmetto.

In muck or red clay, you can always modify the soil.  It might not be easy, but it's doable.  You can also take advantage of any soil patches that differ from the surrounding areas.

Edited October 24, 2023 by RFun

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

In muck or red clay, you can always modify the soil.  It might not be easy, but it's doable.  You can also take advantage of any soil patches that differ from the surrounding areas.

That may work in your garden, but for it's natural range, soil may be a limiting factor. I have never seen documented evidence of saw palmetto in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, or Texas.

[RFun]

3 minutes ago, SeanK said:

That may work in your garden, but for it's natural range, soil may be a limiting factor. I have never seen documented evidence of saw palmetto in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, or Texas.

Well, I have seen them in those states.  I won't make any comment on whether they are native or not.

[Jim in Los Altos]

17 hours ago, L.A.M. said:

I counted 21. The list could well be incomplete, though. Which ones did I miss? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pritchardia

I don't know, but multiple sources cite Arkansas and Louisiana as the western boundary. I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, given the suitable soil/climate and its small size. Besides, saw palmettos were common in longleaf pine savannas, which used to exist in the coastal plains of those four states. I even listed Sabal minor as present in Tennessee and Virginia despite the lack of formal documentation given the absence of evidence to the contrary, sheer number of rural places along Tennessee's southern border they could plausibly be (not to mention that there's a population of them recently plainly visible in downtown Hornsby) and difficulty in properly exploring the Great Dismal Swamp. Remember, dwarf palmettos and saw palmettos are both so small that they don't really stand out in the swamps, jungles and savannas from roads and so slow-growing that they take decades to really recover in newly urbanized areas; I couldn't even see the Cherokee nor McCurtain palmettos in street view no matter how hard I tried and struggle to find plainly visible dwarf palmettos in Arkansas and North Carolina (in both of which it's long been common knowledge that they're common and widespread). If there are plainly visible wild dwarf palmettos in Tennessee and I can't find the wild ones in Oklahoma nor North Alabama nor easily find them in the right parts of Arkansas or North Carolina, I see no more reason to believe that Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi are devoid of saw palmettos than I do to believe that Nevada is devoid of California fan palms and Virginia devoid of dwarf palmettos - which is to say no reason at all. Most land is privately owned even in desert, rainforest and swampland areas, and views from roads and urban areas are limited overall and deceptive due to the disturbance.

Got this from the Palmpedia site just now. 
 

[L.A.M.]

On 10/24/2023 at 2:56 PM, Jim in Los Altos said:

Got this from the Palmpedia site just now. 
 

Do you know the names of the three Pritchardia species I missed?

[ruskinPalms]

Not sure if Sabal miamiensis is recognized as a different species or if it is officially lumped in with etonia but they do apparently differ in flower structure and seed size. Kinda like all those Pritchardia species in Hawaii, it is hard to tell a lot of Sabal palms apart with just a quick glance. Also, I’m pretty sure you can add S. etonia to the list for Georgia. 

[ruskinPalms]

Also a quick question. Are Cocos native to anywhere in the Caribbean basin or are they all technically introduced by humans and naturalized? Cocos has indeed naturalized in south Florida for sure. 

[Kim]

Kew's list of Pritchardia: Genus Pritchardia

Note that many of the names are synonyms for defined species. Also note that not all Pritchardia grow in Hawaii -- Pritchardia tahuatana, for example, has a native range in the Marquesas (French Polynesia). I count 24 in Hawaii.

[L.A.M.]

On 10/28/2023 at 7:47 AM, ruskinPalms said:

Also a quick question. Are Cocos native to anywhere in the Caribbean basin or are they all technically introduced by humans and naturalized? Cocos has indeed naturalized in south Florida for sure. 

Coconut palms aren't native anywhere in the Atlantic, so I didn't count that. With Serenoa in Arkansas, Sabal minor in Tennessee and Virginia and Nypa frucitans in Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands, at least it's plausible - even likely - that they could've ended up there completely naturally.

As for soil, I don't buy that being a limiting factor for Serenoa in the Gulf Coastal Plain in Arkansas. The Mississippi Embayment has very sandy soil all the way up to Southern Illinois, even right by the river; I got my shoes coated in shallow quicksand twice when I went to Fort Defiance and got too close to the confluence. Normally the only parts of coastal plains with clay soil are river deltas and tidal estuaries. Also, remember that Arkansas actually extends all the way south to 33 degrees North latitude, unlike Tennessee which only reaches about a mile south of 35 degrees North and North Carolina which only arches southward near the coast and still barely reaches below 34 degrees North latitude.

[Cape Garrett]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:45 PM, L.A.M. said:

I thought it may be interesting to create a catalog of how many and which palm species are native to each of the 56 USA states and inhabited territories. Who else is on board and wants to help? Feel free to point out any errors I may have made.

So far, I've counted the following numbers of palm species native to each state and territory:

1. AK: 0
2. AL: 3
3. AR: 2
4. AS: 1
5. AZ: 1
6. CA: 1
7. CO: 0
8. CT: 0
9. DC: 0
10. DE: 0
11. FL: 11
12. GA: 4
13. GU: 2
14. HI: 1
15. IA: 0
16. ID: 0
17. IL: 0
18. IN: 0
19. KS: 0
20. KY: 0
21. LA: 2
22. MA: 0
23. MD: 0
24. ME: 0
25. MI: 0
26. MN: 0
27. MO: 0
28. MP: 2
29. MS: 3
30. MT: 0
31. NC: 2
32. ND: 0
33. NE: 0
34. NH: 0
35. NJ: 0
36. NM: 0
37. NV: 1
38. NY: 0
39. OH: 0
40. OK: 1
41. OR: 0
42. PA: 0
43. PR: 10
44. RI: 0
45. SC: 4
46. SD: 0
47. TN: 1
48. TX: 3
49. UT: 0
50. VA: 1
51. VI: 1
52. VT: 0
53. WA: 0
54. WI: 0
55. WV: 0
56. WY: 0

All in all, 16 of 50 states and 5 of 6 territories have at least one native palm, bringing the total to 21 of 56. The District of Columbia is the only territory without them, and New Mexico is the only Sun Belt state without them. On the other hand, California, Nevada and Virginia have one palm species each despite being (mostly) outside of the Sun Belt.

1. AL: Alabama has three native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and Serenoa.
2. AR: Arkansas has two native palm species - Sabal minor and Serenoa.
3. AS: American Samoa has one native palm species - Cocos nucifera.
4. AZ: Arizona has one native palm species - Washingtonia filifera.
5. CA: California has one native palm species - Washingtonia filifera. California is one of only three states mostly outside of the Sun Belt to have a native palm species.
6. FL: Florida has eleven native palm species, which is the most of any state or territory and only state in the double-digits - Acoelorraphe wrightii, Coccothrinax argentata, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Rhapidophyllum, Roystonea regea, Sabal etonia, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto, Serenoa, Thrinax morrisii and Thrinax radiata. https://pinellas.fnpschapters.org/native-plant-profiles/palms/
7. GA: Georgia has four native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto and Serenoa.
8. GU: Guam has two native palm species - Cocos nucifera and Nypa fruticans. N. fruticans isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally.
9. HI: Hawaii has only one native palm species - Pritchardia affinis. It's only native to the little-known Northwest Hawaiian islands, which briefly confused me into thinking Hawaii has two native palm species when I finally learned about the island of Nihoa.
10. LA: Louisiana has two native palm species - Sabal minor and Serenoa. Sabal louisiana could be considered a separate species from Sabal minor due to its taller trunk, but the consensus seems to be that it's a subspecies or variant of S. minor instead.
11. MP: The Northern Mariana Islands have two native palm species - Cocos nucifera and Nypa fruticans. N. fruticans isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally.
12. MS: Mississippi has three native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor and Serenoa.
13. NC: North Carolina has two native palm species - Sabal minor and Sabal palmetto. North Carolina has the northernmost formally documented S. minor and only ones above 35 degrees North latitude, although in reality there are undocumented ones equally far north in Tennessee and even further north in Virginia.
14. NV: Nevada has one native palm species - Washingtonia filifera. Nevada is one of only three states mostly outside of the Sun Belt to have a native palm species. Furthermore, this palm is only known to be native to one county in the southeastern corner of Nevada: Clark.
15. OK: Oklahoma has only one native palm species - Sabal minor. This palm is only known to be native to one county in the southeastern corner of Oklahoma: McCurtain.
16. PR: Puerto Rico has ten native palm species, which is the most of any area besides Florida and only territory in the double-digits - Acrocormia media, Aiphanes acanthophylla, Calyptronorma rivalis, Coccothrinax alta, Gaussia attenuata, Prestoea montana, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Roystonea borinquena, Sabal causiaram and Thrinax morrisii. https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/v28n4p168-172.pdf
17. SC: South Carolina has four native palm species - Rhapidophyllum, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto and Serenoa.
18. TN: Tennessee has one native palm species - Sabal minor. S. minor isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally.
19. TX: Texas has three native palm species - Sabal brazoriensis, Sabal mexicana and Sabal minor. S. brazoriensis is believed to be an ancient natural hybrid of S. minor and Sabal palmetto with the former's extra cold-hardiness and latter's tree size, and genetic analysis ruled out a close relation to S. mexicana. Contrary to some sources, Sabal palmetto is not known to exist naturally in Texas in the modern day; furthermore, it can be easily confused with S. brazoriensis and S. mexicana to a casual observer.
20. VA: Virginia has one native palm species - Sabal minor. S. minor isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally. Furthermore, Virginia is one of only three states mostly outside of the Sun Belt and only one entirely outside of it to have a native palm species; it's also the coldest state/territory to on average and slightly colder than Delaware, the District of Columbia and Kentucky which don't, in addition to being two degrees colder than Tennessee (the next-coldest area with a native palm species). Last but not least, Virginia's native palms are the northernmost in the country; those in Arizona, California and Nevada only reach the latitude of North Carolina and Tennessee.
21. VI: The United States Virgin Islands have only one native palm species - Coccothrinax alta.

Hawaii has many more Pritchardias native to the islands

[SEVA]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:45 PM, L.A.M. said:

.

1. VA: Virginia has one native palm species - Sabal minor. S. minor isn't officially listed as native, but it is present in the wild and could have plausibly spread there naturally. Furthermore, Virginia is one of only three states mostly outside of the Sun Belt and only one entirely outside of it to have a native palm species; it's also the coldest state/territory to on average and slightly colder than Delaware, the District of Columbia and Kentucky which don't, in addition to being two degrees colder than Tennessee (the next-coldest area with a native palm species). Last but not least, Virginia's native palms are the northernmost in the country; those in Arizona, California and Nevada only reach the latitude of North Carolina and Tennessee.

One thing to consider is that statewide averages can be misleading. Virginia’s geography is diverse from mountains in the west to the coastal plain and ocean to the east. The warmest part of Virginia (zone 8b) is warmer than any part of Tennessee, Kentucky, Delaware, and Washington, D.C. Depending on your source, Virginia is a Sun Belt state (I realize some sources say otherwise); at least as far as climate centers are concerned Virginia is part of the Southeast Region. While the native status of Sabal minor is uncertain, it seems reasonable for it to be potentially native. After all, Virginia has a native bromeliad, which is less hardy than Sabal minor. Interestingly, this article mentions Sabal minor as native to Virginia: https://www.pubs.ext.vt.edu/HORT/HORT-60/HORT-60.html.

[Josue Diaz]

For what it's worth, the California native plant society considers brahea armata a native plant. The society considers the greater California Floristic Province, which encompasses parts of southern Oregon and northern Baja as one cohesive biodiversity region, and it doesn't exactly line up with our political borders. So Brahea armata and some other plants (euphorbia xanti and lathyrus splendens come to mind) are considered native even though they exist just south of our political boundary. 

[Silas_Sancona]

8 minutes ago, Josue Diaz said:

For what it's worth, the California native plant society considers brahea armata a native plant. The society considers the greater California Floristic Province, which encompasses parts of southern Oregon and northern Baja as one cohesive biodiversity region, and it doesn't exactly line up with our political borders. So Brahea armata and some other plants (euphorbia xanti and lathyrus splendens come to mind) are considered native even though they exist just south of our political boundary. 

What's interesting about what is included within the CA F. P.  is depending on what source is referenced,  some people, like Rzedowski, include the Sierra De La Laguna in Baja Sur,  which would add any palm sps. and all other plants that occur there as well.

Guadalupe Island is also included within the CA.F.P.  ..So that immediately adds  Brahea edulis  to the CA palm list.



Rzedowski's thoughts:

[Jonathan]

17 hours ago, Josue Diaz said:

For what it's worth, the California native plant society considers brahea armata a native plant. The society considers the greater California Floristic Province, which encompasses parts of southern Oregon and northern Baja as one cohesive biodiversity region, and it doesn't exactly line up with our political borders. So Brahea armata and some other plants (euphorbia xanti and lathyrus splendens come to mind) are considered native even though they exist just south of our political boundary. 

I like this way of thinking, because biogeographically Australia and New Guinea are both part of Sahul, to the east of the Wallace Line and were joined by a land bridge until only 10K years ago...so can we claim the extra 250 NG palms to add to our current 57? Sounds good to me!

[L.A.M.]

On 9/9/2024 at 4:25 PM, Cape Garrett said:

Hawaii has many more Pritchardias native to the islands

Indeed. I corrected myself in retrospect. Sadly, I realized too late to edit the original post.

 

On 10/23/2023 at 12:27 AM, L.A.M. said:

It should say the following now if only I could edit it. Also, the number beside Hawaii should be 21, not 1.

FL: Florida has eleven native palm species, which is the only mainland state in the double-digits - Acoelorraphe wrightii, Coccothrinax argentata, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Rhapidophyllum, Roystonea regea, Sabal etonia, Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto, Serenoa, Thrinax morrisii and Thrinax radiata. Pinellas Chapter FNPS

HI: Hawaii has twenty-one native palm species, all in the genus Pritchardia - Pritchardia affinis, P. arecina, P. aylmer-robinsonii, P. beccariana, P. forbesiana, P. glabrata, P. hardyi, P. hillebrandii, P. kaalae, P. lanaiensis, P. lowreyana, P. martii, P. minor, P. munroi, P. napaliensis, P. perlmanii, P. remota, P. schattaueri, P. viscosa, P. waialealeana and P. woodii. This is the most of any state or territory.

PR: Puerto Rico has ten native palm species, which is the most of any area besides Florida or Hawaii and only territory in the double-digits - Acrocormia media, Aiphanes acanthophylla, Calyptronorma rivalis, Coccothrinax alta, Gaussia attenuata, Prestoea montana, Pseudophoenix sargentii, Roystonea borinquena, Sabal causiaram and Thrinax morrisii. https://palms.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/v28n4p168-172.pdf

 

[L.A.M.]

22 hours ago, SEVA said:

One thing to consider is that statewide averages can be misleading. Virginia’s geography is diverse from mountains in the west to the coastal plain and ocean to the east. The warmest part of Virginia (zone 8b) is warmer than any part of Tennessee, Kentucky, Delaware, and Washington, D.C. Depending on your source, Virginia is a Sun Belt state (I realize some sources say otherwise); at least as far as climate centers are concerned Virginia is part of the Southeast Region. While the native status of Sabal minor is uncertain, it seems reasonable for it to be potentially native. After all, Virginia has a native bromeliad, which is less hardy than Sabal minor. Interestingly, this article mentions Sabal minor as native to Virginia: https://www.pubs.ext.vt.edu/HORT/HORT-60/HORT-60.html.

Norfolk is actually only about as warm as Chattanooga, which is only the second-warmest documented part of Tennessee (behind Memphis). Norfolk just has less variable winters because it's east of the Blue Ridge. Nonetheless, I agree that statewide averages can indeed be wildly misleading; so are California's and Nevada's. Florida and especially Hawaii also have wild temperature variations depending on what part of the state you're in. Cuban royal palms thrive in Miami but would die in Jacksonville or Tallahassee, and no woody plants in general can survive indefinitely on the summit of Mauna Kea (let alone palms). Even Arizona, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas have substantial areas too cold to grow their own state's native palms, although they're in the minority of areas except with Arizona's California fan palms and Texas's Mexican palmetto. Here in Tennessee specifically, all six major cities - Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville, Clarksville, Chattanooga and Murfreesboro - average at least a degree and a half Fahrenheit warmer than the statewide average (Murfreesboro being the least warm of them, probably because its higher population density limits its urban heat island). I also noted that the only portions of California and Nevada known to have wild California fan palms are within the Sun Belt. I used the 36 degrees 30 minutes north line of latitude to define the Sun Belt (basically the northern borders of North Carolina, Tennessee, most of Arkansas and the Texas Panhandle if not for surveying errors), which is a common definition.

[L.A.M.]

3 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I like this way of thinking, because biogeographically Australia and New Guinea are both part of Sahul, to the east of the Wallace Line and were joined by a land bridge until only 10K years ago...so can we claim the extra 250 NG palms to add to our current 57? Sounds good to me!

I would say yes you can for mainland Australia but no for Tasmania. Tasmania became an island 12,000 years ago when the climate was still far cooler. It's the same reason I consider Norway spruce and European fan palms (potential) invaders in the British Isles but fine anywhere in mainland Europe; the area around the English Channel was still too cold when the opportunity for seeds that need continuous land to spread closed. Of course, if it's just separated by a little estuary like Long Island is from mainland North America, that'd be different than miles of open water even if the separation happened when the regional climate was unsuitable, though.

Also keep in mind changing climate zones over distance, not just time. The changing temperatures over high mountain ranges can pose a barrier unless there's a gap in the mountains like there is in Texas between the Rockies and Sierra Madre Oriental. Tropical morning glories can't naturally spread north through the deserts to the humid subtropical ecozones and chaparral, so all of them are considered invasive (although the southeastern USA does have a native salt marsh morning glory along the Gulf Coast). I also consider the Andes a key barrier to things spreading west from the Amazon and the hyperarid Atacama Desert a barrier stopping things from the Valdivian Rainforest from reaching the Choco Rainforest, and even if I didn't, the fact is that many plants native even to subtropical climates like southern magnolias and dwarf palmettos need at least a little relatively cool weather in winter and/or changing daylight hours to flower, let alone stratify seeds, meaning something could become invasive in the opposite hemisphere.

This kind of goes with my first point but on a much grander scale, but the only plants native to both Russia and Alaska are things that can survive in arid regions and/or as tundra vegetation; the area was extremely dry with cooler summers than presently and constant megafauna grazing during the last glacial period, and the too cold/dry for trees areas around and between the Laurentide and Cordilleran ice sheets separated the Yukon territory from the Canadian Prairies until it was too late for plants to spread from Asia to North America entirely on land anymore. If there wasn't constantly a barrier of some form to non-tundra/steppe vegetation spreading between the two continents, we'd have had to adapt to trees of hell (yes there's actually a thing commonly called that), empress trees and Persian silk trees here in Tennessee long long ago, and we'd have Basjoo bananas naturally too!

[Silas_Sancona]

12 minutes ago, L.A.M. said:

Even  Arizona, ................. have  substantial  areas too cold to grow their own state's native palms,

Where did you see this, lol... Washingtonia filifera  can be grown in at least 70% of the state..  Add in Sabal uresana, ..which is within our Floristic Province,  and may edge out W. filifera  by  -at least-  a couple degrees,  and at least one of our native palms can be grown in warm 7b/ 8A boundary / 8A+ areas of the state ..which occupy a majority of territory in AZ,   not less.  

As fast as the state is warming,  by the last two decades of the century, fairly reasonable to think all but the highest portions of the Rim / N.E corner of the state will be -at least- 7B.  ..Which means there is at least 1 native palm which could be grown in 87-90 -ish%  of AZ.  ..If the level of warming suggested to occur in the next 4 or 5 decades occurs.  


Oh and adding in all palms native to our Floristic Province,  which includes all of Sonora ( ...and possibly a couple towns just south of the Sonora / Sinaloa border ...on some maps at least ) ..and both states in Baja in Mexico, < on many maps. Others split things up a bit >,   that would be 7 for sure / 2 possible / potential, and  1 plausible species for AZ's list..  Not 1.

....Unless defining things using that silly " border " ...Which no one here uses when  looking over or  laying out the ranges / potential ranges of what plants / animals are native to the state ..esp. below the Rim / above the floor of the Grand Canyon.



- For sure: - 3 Genus, 7 total species..

Washingtonia:  filifera, and robustra  

Brahea:  nitida*  brandegeei,  armata,  dulcis,  elegans*   * = some separate them, others consider this Brahea one species.

Sabal:  uresana 




- Possible, though remote -  1 Genus,  2 sps.

* Sabal rosei  could also be added to the list if maps depicting the boundary of our Floristic Province being located just south of the Sonora / Sinaloa border are used.   Reallly  close otherwise.


* Sabal pumos  may have grown on the eastern Cape of Baja Sur as well  (  ** see it's range map on iNaturalist. Note the pink spot on the E'rn Cape in BCS. ** )



* Very remote, ...but not completely out of the question  now,  in the future,  or at sometime since the 1700's -  1 Genus, 1 sp.

* While up for debate,  some folks who have done extensive research in Southern Sonora, whose thoughts on the subject i trust,  have suggested Cryosophila nana  may have occurred in the extreme southern corner of Sonora ( Mexico ) before cattle ranching extirpated them from that area.  ..So, that would be species #10 ..if any live specimens / verified evidence of past occurrence is found.


Chamaedorea pochutlensis  is reasonably close, but occurs just far enough south in it's currently documented distribution to fall just outside our F. P.  < 🤞 hopefully someone stumbles upon wild specimens in a remote canyon in / near Alamos  so it can be included within our region >

[Jonathan]

8 hours ago, L.A.M. said:

I would say yes you can for mainland Australia but no for Tasmania. Tasmania became an island 12,000 years ago when the climate was still far cooler. 

 

 

Well yes...Tasmania was glaciated 12,000 years ago! There have been no native palms here since the Eocene, 50m years ago, when we had a nice Nypa species. If I keep a Nypa in my greenhouse, does it count as native?

Lol.

[L.A.M.]

20 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Where did you see this, lol... Washingtonia filifera  can be grown in at least 70% of the state..  Add in Sabal uresana, ..which is within our Floristic Province,  and may edge out W. filifera  by  -at least-  a couple degrees,  and at least one of our native palms can be grown in warm 7b/ 8A boundary / 8A+ areas of the state ..which occupy a majority of territory in AZ,   not less.  

As fast as the state is warming,  by the last two decades of the century, fairly reasonable to think all but the highest portions of the Rim / N.E corner of the state will be -at least- 7B.  ..Which means there is at least 1 native palm which could be grown in 87-90 -ish%  of AZ.  ..If the level of warming suggested to occur in the next 4 or 5 decades occurs.  


Oh and adding in all palms native to our Floristic Province,  which includes all of Sonora ( ...and possibly a couple towns just south of the Sonora / Sinaloa border ...on some maps at least ) ..and both states in Baja in Mexico, < on many maps. Others split things up a bit >,   that would be 7 for sure / 2 possible / potential, and  1 plausible species for AZ's list..  Not 1.

....Unless defining things using that silly " border " ...Which no one here uses when  looking over or  laying out the ranges / potential ranges of what plants / animals are native to the state ..esp. below the Rim / above the floor of the Grand Canyon.



- For sure: - 3 Genus, 7 total species..

Washingtonia:  filifera, and robustra  

Brahea:  nitida*  brandegeei,  armata,  dulcis,  elegans*   * = some separate them, others consider this Brahea one species.

Sabal:  uresana 




- Possible, though remote -  1 Genus,  2 sps.

* Sabal rosei  could also be added to the list if maps depicting the boundary of our Floristic Province being located just south of the Sonora / Sinaloa border are used.   Reallly  close otherwise.


* Sabal pumos  may have grown on the eastern Cape of Baja Sur as well  (  ** see it's range map on iNaturalist. Note the pink spot on the E'rn Cape in BCS. ** )



* Very remote, ...but not completely out of the question  now,  in the future,  or at sometime since the 1700's -  1 Genus, 1 sp.

* While up for debate,  some folks who have done extensive research in Southern Sonora, whose thoughts on the subject i trust,  have suggested Cryosophila nana  may have occurred in the extreme southern corner of Sonora ( Mexico ) before cattle ranching extirpated them from that area.  ..So, that would be species #10 ..if any live specimens / verified evidence of past occurrence is found.


Chamaedorea pochutlensis  is reasonably close, but occurs just far enough south in it's currently documented distribution to fall just outside our F. P.  < 🤞 hopefully someone stumbles upon wild specimens in a remote canyon in / near Alamos  so it can be included within our region >

California fan palms can't flourish in even the warmest parts of Tennessee, which are firmly in Zone 8a and have average annual temperatures around 62 to 63 degrees Fahrenheit - even though a handful in Zone 8b Dallas which averages a few degrees warmer in general supposedly somehow survived Winter Storm Uri. CFPs clearly need a hot climate in the sense that Koppen would rate it as a BSh or BWh climate if they're arid. Mexican fan palms have a lower heat requirement but are also somewhat less freeze-resistant. To be rated as a hot climate by Koppen, the average annual temperature must be at least 18 degrees Celsius/64.4 degrees Fahrenheit. Arizona's statewide average is only 60.8 degrees Fahrenheit due to most of it being high up, and areas with an average temperature of at least 65 degrees Fahrenheit are a clear minority when looking at maps. It's just that the state's major cities are in the Valley of the Sun which averages over 70 degrees Fahrenheit, in some cases over 75 and with only the three winter months failing the heat requirement (which is also Koppen's test of what constitutes a tropical climate, except the 18 degree Celsius minimum for tropical climates applies to the coldest month rather than annual average).

[L.A.M.]

14 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Well yes...Tasmania was glaciated 12,000 years ago! There have been no native palms here since the Eocene, 50m years ago, when we had a nice Nypa species. If I keep a Nypa in my greenhouse, does it count as native?

Lol.

Not all of Tasmania was glaciated, but the central plateau that currently has a subpolar oceanic climate was, indicating a clear cooling trend in the area. I suspect it probably had a mild-winter tundra climate similar to many Southern Ocean islands at low elevations, given its current climate and the fact that the central highlands alone were glaciated. Not to mention the Southern Ocean does reach Tasmania under some definitions, does influence even parts of mainland Australia's weather in the form of southerly busters and that those same Southern Ocean islands also tend to be heavily glaciated once you get onto the mountains. Pretty much the only trees that can grow in even marginal mild-winter tundra climates are Sitka spruce and some Magellanic trees, but even the former will not get nearly as big as usual and latter still will struggle if they're not sheltered from the brutal Roaring Forties/Furious Fifties/Screaming Sixties. The number of palms native to Patagonia and Alaska? Nada. Even well-sited (foreign) Chinese windmill palms ultimately succumbed to the lack of heat in Sitka (which has one of the state's warmest climates), which is an even colder climate than Swadlincote - still a place averaging below 10 degrees Celsius that has not only them but even European fan palms.

That was so long ago that I'd say no. Still, it shouldn't pose an invasiveness threat in a greenhouse.

[Silas_Sancona]

29 minutes ago, L.A.M. said:

California fan palms can't flourish in even the warmest parts of Tennessee, which are firmly in Zone 8a and have average annual temperatures around 62 to 63 degrees Fahrenheit - even though a handful in Zone 8b Dallas which averages a few degrees warmer in general supposedly somehow survived Winter Storm Uri. CFPs clearly need a hot climate in the sense that Koppen would rate it as a BSh or BWh climate if they're arid. Mexican fan palms have a lower heat requirement but are also somewhat less freeze-resistant. To be rated as a hot climate by Koppen, the average annual temperature must be at least 18 degrees Celsius/64.4 degrees Fahrenheit. Arizona's statewide average is only 60.8 degrees Fahrenheit due to most of it being high up, and areas with an average temperature of at least 65 degrees Fahrenheit are a clear minority when looking at maps. It's just that the state's major cities are in the Valley of the Sun which averages over 70 degrees Fahrenheit, in some cases over 75 and with only the three winter months failing the heat requirement (which is also Koppen's test of what constitutes a tropical climate, except the 18 degree Celsius minimum for tropical climates applies to the coldest month rather than annual average).

Koppin  ' sschaa - loppin  yada  yada    Dumbest means of classifying climates, imo..   Hate that s---  ..Next.. 

Only parts of AZ that are " high up " (  high up = above  7Kft ) are some peaks up on the rim, mountains near the Grand Canyon / far N.E' rn AZ,  White Mountains in far E' rn AZ,  and in the major mountain islands further south..  A minority  of territory in the state rather than most of it. 

Uri mention = Naming of non-Hurricane storms = weird  ..Really  weird..

Having lived within this region of the world all but 10 years my reasonably long life thus far, ..let alone the 1,000's of hours spent out getting dirty n bloody in it, to firmly understand it / confirm or deny the " what others had said " kind of info shared regarding X, Y, or Z aspect of,  reasonably confident w/ my knowledge of the ins / outs of how things work in this strangely wonderful corner of the world.

 Still?,  plenty of ground to explore and learn from / more about, ....and get scratched, stabbed, burnt, drenched, and scraped by...   ahead.

[SEVA]

On 9/10/2024 at 9:28 PM, L.A.M. said:

Norfolk is actually only about as warm as Chattanooga, which is only the second-warmest documented part of Tennessee (behind Memphis). Norfolk just has less variable winters because it's east of the Blue Ridge. Nonetheless, I agree that statewide averages can indeed be wildly misleading; so are California's and Nevada's. Florida and especially Hawaii also have wild temperature variations depending on what part of the state you're in. Cuban royal palms thrive in Miami but would die in Jacksonville or Tallahassee, and no woody plants in general can survive indefinitely on the summit of Mauna Kea (let alone palms). Even Arizona, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas have substantial areas too cold to grow their own state's native palms, although they're in the minority of areas except with Arizona's California fan palms and Texas's Mexican palmetto. Here in Tennessee specifically, all six major cities - Nashville, Memphis, Knoxville, Clarksville, Chattanooga and Murfreesboro - average at least a degree and a half Fahrenheit warmer than the statewide average (Murfreesboro being the least warm of them, probably because its higher population density limits its urban heat island). I also noted that the only portions of California and Nevada known to have wild California fan palms are within the Sun Belt. I used the 36 degrees 30 minutes north line of latitude to define the Sun Belt (basically the northern borders of North Carolina, Tennessee, most of Arkansas and the Texas Panhandle if not for surveying errors), which is a common definition.

When you consider the actual average low temperatures experienced in an area, Norfolk and other areas of southeastern Virginia are warmer than anywhere in Tennessee. Tennessee’s warmest zone is 8a, while Virginia’s warmest is 8b. Those lows have a big impact when determining what will grow there. Just driving around Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and Hampton (to name a few) one of the most common native trees observed are live oaks. Many neighborhoods and natural areas have native Spanish-moss. There are even a few Washingtonia and Serenoa repens growing in these areas with Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Butia odorata, and Trachycarpus fortunei being more common. I never saw anything like that during my visits to Chattanooga, Memphis, or elsewhere in TN when I lived in Mississippi. Norfolk and other coastal areas of VA have less variable winter lows due to the moderating effect of the adjacent water bodies. Plenty of inland areas east of the mountains can have highly variable winter temperatures. Even so, I’ve seen mature palms west of Richmond.

[dany Provence]

you can add sabal miamiensis to FL recently rediscovered in the wild (PALMS 68/1 march 2024 Noblyk, Tucker& Joyner )

greeting IPS member from France

Daniel

[MJSanDiego]

How about Baja California? Well it's in Mexico. But it borders California anyway!!! But many might not know Washingtonia Robusta (Mexican Fan Palm) is native to Baja. But it's so ubiquitous and naturalized in California that people often believe it is native to California. But it's not. As OP listed, only Washingtonia Filifera is native to California (California Fan Palm)

[Jonathan]

20 hours ago, L.A.M. said:

Not all of Tasmania was glaciated, but the central plateau that currently has a subpolar oceanic climate was, indicating a clear cooling trend in the area. I suspect it probably had a mild-winter tundra climate similar to many Southern Ocean islands at low elevations, given its current climate and the fact that the central highlands alone were glaciated. Not to mention the Southern Ocean does reach Tasmania under some definitions, does influence even parts of mainland Australia's weather in the form of southerly busters and that those same Southern Ocean islands also tend to be heavily glaciated once you get onto the mountains. Pretty much the only trees that can grow in even marginal mild-winter tundra climates are Sitka spruce and some Magellanic trees, but even the former will not get nearly as big as usual and latter still will struggle if they're not sheltered from the brutal Roaring Forties/Furious Fifties/Screaming Sixties. The number of palms native to Patagonia and Alaska? Nada. Even well-sited (foreign) Chinese windmill palms ultimately succumbed to the lack of heat in Sitka (which has one of the state's warmest climates), which is an even colder climate than Swadlincote - still a place averaging below 10 degrees Celsius that has not only them but even European fan palms.

That was so long ago that I'd say no. Still, it shouldn't pose an invasiveness threat in a 

You need to be careful about Google knowledge because it often lacks nuance or is actually just plain wrong. Koppen climate classification particularly is very unreliable except on a pointlessly broad scale, in my experience.

The central plateau is cold but not sub polar or tundra. There are broad leaf eucalypt forests at 1000m and higher, (which is the average elevation of the plateau, give or take). Temperate rainforest is common in sheltered pockets up there, with some species and even whole rain forest communities continuing as stunted shrubs to over 1200m. Considering that the highest peaks in Tas are only 1600m, and generally max out at 1200, there aren't many areas without trees. The plateau was indeed the major area of glaciation, along with the NE highlands and parts of the SW, and those areas are generally where the current 'tundra' like vegetation is found in Tasmania, as a result of glacial scouring, and traditional burning by indigenous people over tens of thousands of years resulting in very thin acid soils incapable of supporting trees. Anywhere with decent soil depth is fully forested.

The Nypa comment was of course a joke!

[Jonathan]

And I'll butt out of this thread now, sorry to hijack it!

[MJSanDiego]

@L.A.M. Why do you state several times that California is mostly outside the Sun Belt?  Please review the attached map (Sunbelt in red), source: wikipedia