Catalog of palms native to each USA state/territory?

[MJSanDiego]

@L.A.M. You stated California Fan Palm can't tolerate a solid 8b in Tennesse. California Fan Palms do well in many areas of California that are even in zone 8a, such as the High Desert in San Bernardino County. So the issue could not be the cold hardiness zone in TN but some other factor like humidity. And Mexican Fan Palms do not have a lower heat requirement on the upper end and are far less cold hardy than the California Fan Palm 

[MJSanDiego]

OP states several times that California is mostly outside the Sun Belt.  I dont understand. Here is a map showing this is totally inaccurate. Source: Wikipedia. I'd like the OP to answer to this. Seems this thread has died out? There is so much bogus information in this thread. For one.CA Fan palm can handle 7b, even 7a if it's very dry. There are so many factors to survival of palms so you have to consider all variables not just cold hardiness zone but your heat zone, humidity, winds, elevation, etc.

[Spikeinthetriangle]

But why? It’s really quite arbitrary and inconsequential. A meaningless regional distinction. We all have our misapprehensions and biases regarding climate and where palms should or shouldn’t grow/ be grown. Not that important. 

OP was endeavoring to make a list of palms native to US states, and perhaps got a few things wrong. Some have seemed to take this personally 

[SeanK]

On 9/11/2024 at 8:25 PM, L.A.M. said:

California fan palms can't flourish in even the warmest parts of Tennessee, which are firmly in Zone 8a and have average annual temperatures around 62 to 63 degrees Fahrenheit - even though a handful in Zone 8b Dallas which averages a few degrees warmer in general supposedly somehow survived Winter Storm Uri. CFPs clearly need a hot climate in the sense that Koppen would rate it as a BSh or BWh climate if they're arid. Mexican fan palms have a lower heat requirement but are also somewhat less freeze-resistant. To be rated as a hot climate by Koppen, the average annual temperature must be at least 18 degrees Celsius/64.4 degrees Fahrenheit. Arizona's statewide average is only 60.8 degrees Fahrenheit due to most of it being high up, and areas with an average temperature of at least 65 degrees Fahrenheit are a clear minority when looking at maps. It's just that the state's major cities are in the Valley of the Sun which averages over 70 degrees Fahrenheit, in some cases over 75 and with only the three winter months failing the heat requirement (which is also Koppen's test of what constitutes a tropical climate, except the 18 degree Celsius minimum for tropical climates applies to the coldest month rather than annual average).

The problem in the SEUS is humidity.

First, you have to get one big enough so it can take the excess springtime rain. Then, when it goes below 20°F here, it can stay below freezing for 2 or 3 days. You may get ice in the bud, too.

[SeanK]

14 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

@L.A.M. Why do you state several times that California is mostly outside the Sun Belt?  Please review the attached map (Sunbelt in red), source: wikipedia

Considering all the rain in Louisiana, I'd have to question the Wiki.

[MJSanDiego]

58 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Considering all the rain in Louisiana, I'd have to question the Wiki.

Sun Belt is the area stretching from the SE to the SW USA, or roughly anything south of the 36th parallel. Many areas of FL and SE USA get 35 inches of rain, on average, each year.  Southern CA gets 10 inches on average.  Phoenix gets 7.5!  CA High Desert gets 3!  All in the Sun Belt regardless

[MJSanDiego]

1 hour ago, Spikeinthetriangle said:

But why? It’s really quite arbitrary and inconsequential. A meaningless regional distinction. We all have our misapprehensions and biases regarding climate and where palms should or shouldn’t grow/ be grown. Not that important. 

OP was endeavoring to make a list of palms native to US states, and perhaps got a few things wrong. Some have seemed to take this personally 

Why not? The Sun Belt is the area stretching from the SE to the SW USA, or roughly anything south of the 36th latitude.  I would think many would appreciate this update, so we can all be informed on the subject.  The OP mentioned the Sun Belt quite a few times, so it is relevant to the posting details. When the OP posted that a certain species of palm is the only one outside the Sun Belt, if you don't have the correct Sun Belt boundaries then it's all erroneous

[Spikeinthetriangle]

2 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

Why not? The Sun Belt is the area stretching from the SE to the SW USA, or roughly anything south of the 36th latitude.  I would think many would appreciate this update, so we can all be informed on the subject.  The OP mentioned the Sun Belt quite a few times, so it is relevant to the posting details. When the OP posted that a certain species of palm is the only one outside the Sun Belt, if you don't have the correct Sun Belt boundaries then it's all erroneous

Fair enough. It has been discussed, so I suppose it’s worth unpacking a bit.

Not sure there is a "correct" Boundary? The region doesn’t appear to be defined with any consistency. A cursory search provides several different maps, and without consensus, there’s little utility when discussing anything. OP was likely referencing a map that looks like one of these…

certainly open having my opinion changed🙂

 

[L.A.M.]

19 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

@L.A.M. Why do you state several times that California is mostly outside the Sun Belt?  Please review the attached map (Sunbelt in red), source: wikipedia

Definitions vary. From Wikipedia, "the Kinder Institute for Urban Research defines the Sun Belt as being south of 36°30′N latitude, which includes all of Arkansas, most of Oklahoma and virtually all of Tennessee (small parts of East and Middle Tennessee extend north of 36°30′ due to surveying errors) but leaves out most of Nevada and California, with only Southern California and parts of Nye County and the Las Vegas Valley being included. This definition also includes most of the Missouri Bootheel."

I use Kinder's strictly latitudinal-based definition because I agree both that a sun-related region should be latitudinally based and agree with them that 36 30 is the right line of latitude for that. Accounting for the seasonal variation of sun angle, places south of that line have an at least 30 degree sun angle (1/3rd of the way from the horizon to directly overhead) at some point every single day of the year, while places north of it don't. Basically, Kinder defines the Sun Belt as those places that reach at least a moderate sun angle at midday on even the winter solstice. That is key to a "sun" belt given that regardless of whether the sky is clear or cloudy (although clouds do have an impact) and of the thickness of the ozone layer and the atmosphere in general (which again do have an impact), the UV index and really the light level in general are higher the higher the sun angle is. Furthermore, San Francisco and Sacramento are narrowly outside of the latitudinal Sun Belt and culturally and economically distinctly not Sun Belt cities, whereas Oklahoma City/Norman, Tulsa, Little Rock, Nashville/Murfreesboro, the Piedmont Triad and the Research Triangle definitely do behave as Sun Belt cities in practice and superficially feel like them. Although that's not to say the cultural delineation is completely clear-cut; there are parts of Southern Appalachia with the economics and politics of the Rust Belt but on steroids in addition to bustling Chattanooga and the nice retiree/tourist areas, as well as places narrowly outside of the latitudinal Sun Belt like St. George and Colorado Springs that have the economics and culture of Sun Belt cities. There are even places right on the verge like Clarksville Tenn. and the Tri-Cities of Tennessee that have taken wildly different paths, with Clarksville being as poised as Murfreesboro to outpace Chattanooga and Knoxville population-wise soon and the Tri-Cities succumbing to the economic ruin facing Appalachia in general, including much of Southern Appalachia as mentioned above.

On 9/11/2024 at 8:54 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Koppin  ' sschaa - loppin  yada  yada    Dumbest means of classifying climates, imo..   Hate that s---  ..Next.. 

Only parts of AZ that are " high up " (  high up = above  7Kft ) are some peaks up on the rim, mountains near the Grand Canyon / far N.E' rn AZ,  White Mountains in far E' rn AZ,  and in the major mountain islands further south..  A minority  of territory in the state rather than most of it. 

Uri mention = Naming of non-Hurricane storms = weird  ..Really  weird..

Having lived within this region of the world all but 10 years my reasonably long life thus far, ..let alone the 1,000's of hours spent out getting dirty n bloody in it, to firmly understand it / confirm or deny the " what others had said " kind of info shared regarding X, Y, or Z aspect of,  reasonably confident w/ my knowledge of the ins / outs of how things work in this strangely wonderful corner of the world.

 Still?,  plenty of ground to explore and learn from / more about, ....and get scratched, stabbed, burnt, drenched, and scraped by...   ahead.

Yes, Koppen does have its flaws. I still think they got the "cold"/"hot" boundary for arid climates just right, though, at least as far as North America is concerned. California fan palms are a desert plant, and they do seem to need an average annual temperature of at least 18 degrees Celsius/64.4 degrees Fahrenheit to thrive.

 

On 9/11/2024 at 10:37 PM, SEVA said:

When you consider the actual average low temperatures experienced in an area, Norfolk and other areas of southeastern Virginia are warmer than anywhere in Tennessee. Tennessee’s warmest zone is 8a, while Virginia’s warmest is 8b. Those lows have a big impact when determining what will grow there. Just driving around Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and Hampton (to name a few) one of the most common native trees observed are live oaks. Many neighborhoods and natural areas have native Spanish-moss. There are even a few Washingtonia and Serenoa repens growing in these areas with Sabal minor, Sabal palmetto, Rhapidophyllum hystrix, Butia odorata, and Trachycarpus fortunei being more common. I never saw anything like that during my visits to Chattanooga, Memphis, or elsewhere in TN when I lived in Mississippi. Norfolk and other coastal areas of VA have less variable winter lows due to the moderating effect of the adjacent water bodies. Plenty of inland areas east of the mountains can have highly variable winter temperatures. Even so, I’ve seen mature palms west of Richmond.

Dwarf palmettos are very elusive even in the wild unless you own the land, given that they don't readily recolonize disturbed areas such as fencerows and roadside ditches. It takes decades for them to grow, and even when they do, they still tend to spread far more in small clusters than via longer-range seed dispersal. Furthermore, needle palms and Brazoria palmettos are seldom available in plant nurseries because they not only grow slowly too but also have limited natural ranges; they're probably glacial relics of what was warm enough and rainy enough even in the coldest periods but also are above sea level now. I will still say that we do lack many broad-leaved evergreen plants that other Southern states have, but that's also true compared to Arkansas and even drier Oklahoma and for many coastal plants that can last here if planted. Southern wax myrtles even reach as far north as New Jersey naturally, which still has similar growing zones to us despite coastal moderation. We do have swamp laurel oaks and sweetbay magnolias, but like dwarf palmettos, they're limited to scattered or isolated rural areas along our southern state line. I will admit that find it rather mysterious that Arkansas and Oklahoma have more than us in those ways and that so many naturally coastal plants that are able to thrive for decades in Zone 7a humid subtropical climates haven't yet spread back here too, but given the threats of desertification and sea level rise to them, fact that many wild birds and mammals here would benefit from their presence too, fact that our deciduous trees/shrubs are adapted to exist alongside them in Arkansas and coastal areas and fact that too many bare trees/shrubs can cause/worsen seasonal depression for some people, perhaps we should plant them here too so we don't have to live with having accidentally wiped them out once Greenland completely thaws? I think I've found my calling.