Lava rocks??

[palm789]

Just came back from fuerteventura and I noticed with palms over there even though its dry, all I seen is palms grown in volcanic small lava rock looking chippings? Where do those palms get the nutrients from? I live in the uk could I do this with my windmills etc? 

[Silas_Sancona]

4 hours ago, palm789 said:

Just came back from fuerteventura and I noticed with palms over there even though its dry, all I seen is palms grown in volcanic small lava rock looking chippings? Where do those palms get the nutrients from? I live in the uk could I do this with my windmills etc? 

Lava ..and most other types of volcanic- derived ( Igneous ) rock tends to be quite fertile due to the abundance  of minerals / elements contained in the rock itself..  That said, all the " nutrients " are released very slowly    ..which is better for plants anyway.. 

A good example of this are Quartz- rich Granites ( Common here ) which often contain large amounts of Potassium or Magnesium. 

Depending on how it was formed, Lava can contain lots of Iron  " Red " Lava? can be regular black colored stuff that has been exposed to the surface long enough that it starts to rust as the iron content reacts to chemical and physical weathering.

Other nutrients  palms ..or other plants  growing in Lava might need,  like Nitrogen,  are provided by decomposing organic matter that settles onto.. and then sifts down through... the lava to the more decomposed " lava soil " below ..where soil dwelling critters continue the recycling / nutrient releasing process.

Lava is excellent at both providing lots of space ( between each individual rock ) for oxygen to circulate down to / through a root zone, and, because it often is quite porous / has lots of moisture trapping crevices,  can retain some moisture / keep humidity levels higher, especially below the soil surface.  Can also draw moisture up from below as well.


You could definitely try out growing a windmill in straight Lava ..or a mix containing 75-90% lava, with the remaining %'age of a soil-less mix made up of Seramis ( Calcined Clay ) and a pinch or two of Coconut peat / Ground Coconut Husk..

Just be aware that such a soil mix like this can dry out faster ( Not always a bad thing )  There are videos online of someone demonstrating growing very healthy  palms in straight Pumice, which is another type of rock created by volcanic activity.



 

[Foxpalms]

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Just be aware that such a soil mix like this can dry out faster ( Not always a bad thing )  There are videos online of someone demonstrating growing very healthy  palms in straight Pumice, which is another type of rock created by volcanic activity.

 

For the climate of south Wales that's probably a benefit. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Silas_Sancona]

46 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

For the climate of south Wales that's probably a benefit. 

Possible i guess? ..no clue regarding the climate there..  but, the overall  idea is interesting.. @Palmfarmer had shared a link to the particular video in a similarly -themed thread elsewhere and i have to say, the palms shown in the video were quite healthy for being grown in just Pumice.. 

Could see a similar " idea " working in some warm, frost free corner of S. Cal. when attempting to grow X species of small-ish tropical palm / other plant(s) that might be too touchy in the ground -w/out it's feet being constantly moist  ...but not soaked either..  🤔

[Foxpalms]

24 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Possible i guess? ..no clue regarding the climate there..  but, the overall  idea is interesting.. @Palmfarmer had shared a link to the particular video in a similarly -themed thread elsewhere and i have to say, the palms shown in the video were quite healthy for being grown in just Pumice.. 

Could see a similar " idea " working in some warm, frost free corner of S. Cal. when attempting to grow X species of small-ish tropical palm / other plant(s) that might be too touchy in the ground -w/out it's feet being constantly moist  ...but not soaked either..  🤔

The problem here at northern latitudes 50Ns is that during the winter it takes a long time for evapotranspiration to occur and for Wales which is wetter than here it's probably better to keep most palms on the drier side through winter. Especially if experimenting with more marginal palms. At least in London for palms such as syagrus romanzoffiana, that seems to be the difference between them surviving or dying. It never gets cold enough here for it to even damage queen's but wet cold soil that drains badly has a good chance of giving them root rot. That is the only thing here I have found queen's here are fussy about soil, needs to be able to dry out in the winter but retain moisture with regular watering in the summer. Palms such as archontophoenix and howea don't seem to care though. That is why I have some basalt mixed in with other things where my queen's are planted. The other benefit to it is that it is a thermal mass. 

[Palmfarmer]

6 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Possible i guess? ..no clue regarding the climate there..  but, the overall  idea is interesting.. @Palmfarmer had shared a link to the particular video in a similarly -themed thread elsewhere and i have to say, the palms shown in the video were quite healthy for being grown in just Pumice.. 

Could see a similar " idea " working in some warm, frost free corner of S. Cal. when attempting to grow X species of small-ish tropical palm / other plant(s) that might be too touchy in the ground -w/out it's feet being constantly moist  ...but not soaked either..  🤔

This video. Its just Pumice and clay for more cec. 

The weird thing is it seems like he is going to store with the resorvoir full of water for the winter. 

[96720]

If you have ever received palms from Flouibunda to they are in lava rock!!!

[Tomas]

20 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

On 10/27/2023 at 6:27 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Just be aware that such a soil mix like this can dry out faster ( Not always a bad thing )  There are videos online of someone demonstrating growing very healthy  palms in straight Pumice, which is another type of rock created by volcanic activity.

 

For the climate of south Wales that's probably a benefit. 

The same here in Rome, Italy, the marginal palms here do not like our long wet and cold winters, the mixes for pots  never dry uot quickly enough.

I have been using mixes with lava rock for decades, first of all for plants that need fast drainage.

A very important factor for plants in pots, but this apply also to those grown in full ground, is what I know as Air Filled Porosity (but has other names too), that is the quantity of air in a pot that remains when the mix is fully saturated with water. If the air content is very low, it will promote anaerobial bacteria growth, that then may damage the roots.

Lava rock itself is very coarse for a pot and, even if capable of holding moisture, has a low capacity to hold nutrients, so adding some soilless potting mix, as suggested by Silas Sancona is usefull. But here comes the problem, the lava beeing coarse, the mix will slowly sink to the bottom, lowering the Air Filled Capacity right in the place where it is really needed. Also, keep im mind, the lawa rock needs to be washed, because as it comes from the quarry, it is mixed with fine particles of every kind.

 

After a lot of experimenting, I now use a mix 2/3 perlite and 1/3 cocopeat, the coco peat is relatively slow to decompose, its pH is neutral (7pH) and the mix will stay homogeneous.

The top layer is than made of lava rock, that will prevent the ultralight perlite from being washed out.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Tomas said:

Lava rock itself is very coarse for a pot and, even if capable of holding moisture, has a low capacity to hold nutrients, so adding some soilless potting mix, as suggested by Silas Sancona is usefull. But here comes the problem, the lava beeing coarse, the mix will slowly sink to the bottom, lowering the Air Filled Capacity right in the place where it is really needed. Also, keep im mind, the lawa rock needs to be washed, because as it comes from the quarry, it is mixed with fine particles of every kind.

Depends on the Lava type.. If very dense / is a low pore content- type, yes, it may not hold much " applied " nutrients, though it releases many more ..albeit slowly..

If it is highly porous / has lots of " nooks and cranies ", so to say.., it will hang on to some nutrients ..and also release what mineral / elemental stuff it contains ..slowly.



True it will slowly be brought further down in the soil column. ..anything heavier than lighter decomposing organic content or stuff like perlite in a soil mix will eventually work its way toward the bottom, as the organics are broken down to .. eventually nothing / perlite floats up to the surface.. but, i've never had chunky inorganic components like Lava ..or Turface MVP ( Often called " Seramis " in other parts of the world ) Pumice, or the larger grained " Sand " / Grit i collect and sift to desired size  compact enough to cause issues w/ circulation of Oxygen ( The Air exchange between the surface of.. ..and deeper levels of the soil  you mentioned ) 

If anything, it has led to less " stale / Oxygen- depleted " soil conditions ( if / when kept too wet ) than when there is nothing but a thick layer of really fine sand, and /or thick, mucky, completely degraded organics at the bottom of a pot. 



Agree, if purchased in bulk, or unwashed bags of it, recommend washing Lava as well to get the fine " Lava sand " content of the package off the rock..  Really fine Lava sand can be as bad in a soil mix as fine sand from other rock types / silt.

One of these days, i want to make a trip up to Flagstaff to get a few bags of larger grained lava cinder.. Is a commonly used rock up there for flood control " Sand " bags, and as an alternative to salt to thwart accumulated snowfall.

[Tomas]

2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

True it will slowly be brought further down in the soil column. ..anything heavier than lighter decomposing organic content or stuff like perlite in a soil mix will eventually work its way toward the bottom, as the organics are broken down to .. eventually nothing / perlite floats up to the surface.. but, i've never had chunky inorganic components like Lava ..or Turface MVP ( Often called " Seramis " in other parts of the world ) Pumice, or the larger grained " Sand " / Grit i collect and sift to desired size  compact enough to cause issues w/ circulation of Oxygen ( The Air exchange between the surface of.. ..and deeper levels of the soil  you mentioned ) 

If anything, it has led to less " stale / Oxygen- depleted " soil conditions ( if / when kept too wet ) than when there is nothing but a thick layer of really fine sand, and /or thick, mucky, completely degraded organics at the bottom of a pot. 

I wanted to say the exact oposite, the fine organic mix will be washed down to the bottom, the big chunks of the lava rock will "let it go down". In my experience this doesn't happen with perlite/cocopeat mix as the particles of perlite are smaller and will keep the cocopeat in place.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Tomas

[Brian]

I had big planters made about 10 years ago and filled them with pumice for some Encephalartos. I’ve added bark mulch on top to keep the sun from heating up the root. Each year I add about 2 kilos of worm castings below the mulch. My thinking is that the worm castings will get washed down over time and Ill just add more each year. This year I pulled out a encephalartos eugene-maraisii to remove several pups. It was easier to just remove the whole plant before cutting the pups off. To my surprise, the top layer was all worm castings and decomposed bark. None of it had worked it way down that I could see. That plants are all healthy and have not had any issues but I was surprised that the worm castings did not work there way down. 

[Kim]

All my palms are growing in lava rock on the Big Island of Hawaii. I have noticed on how much fatter and fast-growing palms are in areas of the island that have more soil. The lava provides excellent drainage, but doesn't seem to offer the advantage of good soil. I fertilize, but with around 400 palms to tend to... ! Those planted in the few areas where I have more soil are notably more stout. In my observation a mix of good soil with crushed lava is best.