Palm Spacing - Check my plan!

[Peachs]

Hello everyone. I will soon have a pool in the garden, and I would like a jungle effect. However, I doubt the feasibility because of competition from palm trees and especially the possible lack of nutrients. The growth of the mule palms will be much higher than the Brahea.

I am in zone 8b, and its location would be very sunny. The soil is quite sandy, I fertilize and water my palms regularly.

Plan b would be not to put any Brahea, and to separate the Mule Palme by twice the distance.

What is your opinion?

[Kim]

My personal opinion: that is much too tight. Have you viewed images of those palms at maturity? Sure, when you first plant them, it will look fine. Some years down the road this will be quite a tangle, with the Brahea struggling in the shadows of the much faster mule palms. Again, this is my own opinion. I don't especially care for tightly crowded "jungle" gardens. I prefer to see the spreading crown of each palm, thus in my mind, 2 mule palms would be overlapping quite a bit within those 4 meters. Plan B might be okay. Or you could do 3 Brahea easily and they wouldn't crowd each other for many years and would get plenty of sun, which they love. Oh, and don't cram these up against a fence or house. Give them some space to perform.

[iDesign]

Just for fun...

The news story says this is a 14 foot gator (same as your space).

I superimposed the Mule Palm photo from this URL - https://www.moonvalleynurseries.com/mule-palm

Assuming I scaled the human correctly, you could in theory fit three mule palms in that space... AT THAT SIZE OF PALM... but if the mule palm got larger than this then it wouldn't fit.  And even at this size there's a lot of frond smashing.

This also assumes the fronds can spread beyond the 14 feet. If the fronds need to stay within the 14 feel it would look like this...

 

This is FAR from a scientific analysis (using gators and internet photos), but hopefully that helps with visualization.

Your best advice will come from more advanced palm growers (like @Kim)... but made for an enjoyable Photoshop experiment.

[Patrick]

For mules you should do at least 10 feet apart, probably more like 12-15. They will look all smashed together otherwise, and especially at 6' spacing. Mature fronds are at least 10' long.

 

I'd eliminate the three in the middle, or plant something shorter, like Arenga engleri in between. What about 2 Mules 12' apart, engleri in the middle and like some Chamaedorea radicalis or microspadix on the outsides? 

 

Or Rhapidophylum hystrix on the outsides. Those would be bulletproof and give you that fan shape you would be missing by not having the Braheas.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Patrick

[Patrick]

22 minutes ago, iDesign said:

Just for fun...

The news story says this is a 14 foot gator (same as your space).

I superimposed the Mule Palm photo from this URL - https://www.moonvalleynurseries.com/mule-palm

Assuming I scaled the human correctly, you could in theory fit three mule palms in that space... AT THAT SIZE OF PALM... but if the mule palm got larger than this then it wouldn't fit.  And even at this size there's a lot of frond smashing.

This also assumes the fronds can spread beyond the 14 feet. If the fronds need to stay within the 14 feel it would look like this...

 

This is FAR from a scientific analysis (using gators and internet photos), but hopefully that helps with visualization.

Your best advice will come from more advanced palm growers (like @Kim)... but made for an enjoyable Photoshop experiment.

Can you edit a sasquatch in for good measure? Thanks. 

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, Patrick said:

Can you edit a sasquatch in for good measure? Thanks. 

Reminds me of this guy’s editing requests…

[Patrick]

The photoshop is cool. Just having a bit of fun, as are you looking glass! 

Here's a contribution at least, finally  l. This is a photo of one of my mules in the backyard, albeit a bad one. There's about 7 or 8 feet of trunk. My back yard is 35 feet wide. This thing is probably 25 feet across in the canopy. This is not full sun so fronds would be shorter in that exposure (a little), but hopefully you get point. But definitely DO the mules!!!

 

 

Edit. Horrible picture! Ill try to get a better one during daylight, but its the one center-ish.  The one on the right is a Livistona decora

Edited November 3, 2023 by Patrick

[DoomsDave]

8 hours ago, Peachs said:

Hello everyone. I will soon have a pool in the garden, and I would like a jungle effect. However, I doubt the feasibility because of competition from palm trees and especially the possible lack of nutrients. The growth of the mule palms will be much higher than the Brahea.

I am in zone 8b, and its location would be very sunny. The soil is quite sandy, I fertilize and water my palms regularly.

Plan b would be not to put any Brahea, and to separate the Mule Palme by twice the distance.

What is your opinion?

Plan B is better but I propose plan C which is mules only at 5 meter distance.

As others have noted and I stridently scream; mules get BIG! Half a meter across the trunk, with maybe 7-10 m across the crown. But no spines. Plant like at least a couple meters from the pool.

Wait! As a palm vendor I’d still like to help you find a home for Brahea super silver too. Maybe a property portrait? Show us everything?

Don’t feel the need to hurry!! 

[JohnAndSancho]

3 hours ago, Patrick said:

Can you edit a sasquatch in for good measure? Thanks. 

Omg 😂☠️

[iDesign]

5 hours ago, Patrick said:

Can you edit a sasquatch in for good measure? Thanks. 

Of course! But only if I can add two (more generously spaced) mule palms as well... gotta keep the thread on topic. 🤣

And yes, as @DoomsDave suggested, ideal is if you can post actual photos of your yard. Otherwise you risk, um "substitutions".

[Peachs]

Thank you all! I add: I have 3 mule palms, one medium sized and two very small, I think I would have no problem planting them together. However, I will look for another location for the Brahea.
 

Medium:

 

Small:

 

Super Silver:

 

[Peachs]

 

 

I have recalculated, I can extend to 6 ft spacing between them.

[iDesign]

Very helpful... can you confirm scale from the following photo?

Top "scale" assumes there are approx. three feet between each of the white dots.
And that the area we can work with stretches from the far left to bottom of ht kiddie slide.

Bottom "scale" assumes the ENTIRE area is 14 feet wide.

[Peachs]

10 minutes ago, iDesign said:

Very helpful... can you confirm scale from the following photo?

Top "scale" assumes there are approx. three feet between each of the white dots.
And that the area we can work with stretches from the far left to bottom of ht kiddie slide.

Bottom "scale" assumes the ENTIRE area is 14 feet wide.

The total distance in that image is 30 ft
 

 

Marked with white stones where the palm trees would go, at a distance of 6 ft. between them.

[iDesign]

Gotcha! Here's what I believe is the proper scaling for a mature mule palm then, based on the updated measurements. The two plants on the right (near the trampoline) were part of the mule palm image, so were left in this version of the photo for scaling purposes)...

ASSUMING THE SCALING IS NOW CORRECT, this is what your proposed layout would look like when the mule palms mature...

Looks like it could technically work... just seems a tad crowded to me.

I can't speak personally for the light requirements of the Brahea (sounds like there might be some concern there).

If it were me, I'd mix it up a bit more. Here's a modified version of @Patrick;s layout based on internet photos (plus some artistic license on my end)...

This is more along the lines of what I would do (from a purely cosmetic perspective). Cut back to TWO mules and put something smaller & bushy in the middle (Arenga engleri?). Then fill the edges with zone-appropriate tropical plants (which I can't advise on... these were just internet plants that showed up when I typed "zone 8 tropical landscape"). The Brahea Super Silver is on the left (and you could add another one if desired).

And feel free to take everything with a big grain of salt. There's no "right" answer on how to do your landscaping, but hopefully this helped with visualizing possible options for your space. 🤔

[Peachs]

Incredible contribution. Thank you very much! The photos have great value.

The central mule palm, would be larger than the rest (see photos). The Brahea, supposedly, grow quite fast.

Thanks for the ideas.

[DoomsDave]

4 hours ago, Peachs said:

Incredible contribution. Thank you very much! The photos have great value.

The central mule palm, would be larger than the rest (see photos). The Brahea, supposedly, grow quite fast.

Thanks for the ideas.

Braheas don’t grow fast, as a group.

[DoomsDave]

Mules get big

Here’s my smaller mule, shoe is 32 cm 12.5” long.

[Peachs]

5 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Braheas don’t grow fast, as a group.

I agree, I was referring to the "super silver", they are one of the fastest Braheas. Growing slowly will help create that "jungle" effect. The trachycarpus on the left do grow fast.
 

 

Growth in 2 years of a mule palm, here they all grow quite slowly.

[WisTex]

Does anyone know the crown diameter for a mature Brahea Super Silver or have a photo of a mature one?

[DoomsDave]

Here’s my Brahea super silver. It’s about 9 feet 3 m tall overall, about ten years in the ground from a small plant.

[DoomsDave]

Here’s a crown shot of one of my mule palms; I estimate it’s about 25 feet of 8.3 m across.

 

[Peachs]

7 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Here’s my Brahea super silver. It’s about 9 feet 3 m tall overall, about ten years in the ground from a small plant.

 

7 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Here’s a crown shot of one of my mule palms; I estimate it’s about 25 feet of 8.3 m across.

 

 

Did you plant them at the same time with the same size?
 

I love both. The mule palm takes up much more space, the brahea is very compact.

[mnorell]

Sergio, I'm afraid you'll need to make sure you keep plenty of mules in your greenhouse as springtime replacements, because you'll likely never have any mature specimens in an 8b climate zone. These are borderline 9a/b plants that do not like temperatures below 20F and will likely severely damage or completely defoliate in the upper teens, with possible bud-kill except in the driest of climes. If you expect mid/upper teens most years, you will be losing them unevenly in your "average" winters and lose the whole crop when you experience your sub-average winters with low teens (and possibly single digits depending on your topography/location). So unless you have unlimited funds and don't mind the idea of planting an annual garden of palms, you will want to find an alternative.

Remember with tall foundation palms you have to take into consideration the range of minima you are likely to experience over the desired life of your landscape composition. Which means digging into your temperature records over the years. And don't forget to look at 1985. I don't mean to be a total nay-sayer, but zone-ratings are just a ballpark helper and people often think they're safe planting something in 8b that has a minimum survival temperature of 15F. Big mistake. You don't give us your location ("Spain" is a big area and of little help to any of us here), so it's hard for anyone to make specific recommendations to help you, but perhaps you should consider the hardiest Butia you can find (even that may be marginal) or perhaps a Butia-Jubaea cross, though that sounds far too large for your limited space. Better yet, take the space you want to use for your mules and invest in a bulletproof evergreen canopy to protect everything else you plant in that bed. And I agree with Patrick about working in some Rhapidophyllum (it is really a beautiful palm for background-massing in dappled-to-full shade) and perhaps some Chamaedorea radicalis and C. microspadix. Sabal is a great choice for a tall foundation palm though they are large until their crown gets up and out of your walking-height. Your choices for tall, hardy feather-leaf palms is highly limited below the borderline of 9a/b unless you're in a very dry desert climate.

[Josue Diaz]

I think the mules will grow vertically much, much faster than the brahea. As long as you're ok with the crowns running into each other, i don't see a problem planting the mules 6 feet apart. Many people plant queens in groups of 3 (granted, your grouping is along a vertical line, and not in triangle formation), but they look just fine. Sometimes they will grow away from each other so that you get a leaning trunk. If your wall faces west, or south, a high canopy will allow sufficient light in for a shorter palm between them, like the super silvers you're talking about. Here is my super silver, planted here about 6/7 years ago or so. It's maybe 6 feet away from a syagrus which you can see on the left edge of the photo here. 

You might also consider sabal minor... here is a sabal minor at a local garden that is perhaps 7 feet tall, and the leaves are HUGE. 

And here is a local mule as well. You can see it is planted maybe 6 feet away from a jubaea... so yeah haha one of them will ultimately win this battle, but for now they are happy together. 

[DoomsDave]

@Peachs Sergio, maybe give us a general location of your garden on a map?

As @mnorell notes, Spain is a big place, with lots of variety. If you turn out to have a USDA Zone 9, much better.

A HUGE thing is is if you're on or near a slope which drains off cold air away from your garden on a cold night. That might make a critical difference.

[Peachs]

9 hours ago, mnorell said:

Sergio, I'm afraid you'll need to make sure you keep plenty of mules in your greenhouse as springtime replacements, because you'll likely never have any mature specimens in an 8b climate zone. These are borderline 9a/b plants that do not like temperatures below 20F and will likely severely damage or completely defoliate in the upper teens, with possible bud-kill except in the driest of climes. If you expect mid/upper teens most years, you will be losing them unevenly in your "average" winters and lose the whole crop when you experience your sub-average winters with low teens (and possibly single digits depending on your topography/location). So unless you have unlimited funds and don't mind the idea of planting an annual garden of palms, you will want to find an alternative.

Remember with tall foundation palms you have to take into consideration the range of minima you are likely to experience over the desired life of your landscape composition. Which means digging into your temperature records over the years. And don't forget to look at 1985. I don't mean to be a total nay-sayer, but zone-ratings are just a ballpark helper and people often think they're safe planting something in 8b that has a minimum survival temperature of 15F. Big mistake. You don't give us your location ("Spain" is a big area and of little help to any of us here), so it's hard for anyone to make specific recommendations to help you, but perhaps you should consider the hardiest Butia you can find (even that may be marginal) or perhaps a Butia-Jubaea cross, though that sounds far too large for your limited space. Better yet, take the space you want to use for your mules and invest in a bulletproof evergreen canopy to protect everything else you plant in that bed. And I agree with Patrick about working in some Rhapidophyllum (it is really a beautiful palm for background-massing in dappled-to-full shade) and perhaps some Chamaedorea radicalis and C. microspadix. Sabal is a great choice for a tall foundation palm though they are large until their crown gets up and out of your walking-height. Your choices for tall, hardy feather-leaf palms is highly limited below the borderline of 9a/b unless you're in a very dry desert climate.

Central area of the country, near Madrid. Here the climate is very dry. I have 2 mule palms that do not suffer damage in winter, at temperatures of 18F, maybe it is the location. Neither does W. robusta. If there was damage, they recover quickly in spring. Maybe it affects the location, or the low humidity, in any case it is getting less and less cold here. Thanks for your recommendations.

[Peachs]

6 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

@Peachs Sergio, maybe give us a general location of your garden on a map?

As @mnorell notes, Spain is a big place, with lots of variety. If you turn out to have a USDA Zone 9, much better.

A HUGE thing is is if you're on or near a slope which drains off cold air away from your garden on a cold night. That might make a critical difference.

 

 

Salamanca / Castilla y León

 

The lowest temperature I have seen, is 18F, normal is 20F, which they recover quickly. Some nights in December/January. Very little rain here. The climate is very dry.

I am not honestly concerned about the viability of mule palms here, from my experience. Nor can I be worried about the future, although the trend is getting warmer.

 

[sonoranfans]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:18 AM, Peachs said:

Central area of the country, near Madrid. Here the climate is very dry. I have 2 mule palms that do not suffer damage in winter, at temperatures of 18F, maybe it is the location. Neither does W. robusta. If there was damage, they recover quickly in spring. Maybe it affects the location, or the low humidity, in any case it is getting less and less cold here. Thanks for your recommendations.

yeah USDA zones are not reliable when comparing the brief cold of a desert/mediterranean climate with a humid subtropical cold which lasts longer.  Ive seen royals take brief 18F, defolliate and then come back in a brief desert cold.  The low was 15F at dawn but by 8am it was 38F.   On spacing of mules should be 10 feet or so but bunching them closer will make them more cold hardy and easier to water.  Planting them too close will cause some abrasion as stems rub in wind, though.