Phoenix species id help

[Nikoskater]

Hi everyone, I recently bought a phoenix palm.

it was sold as a 4 yrs old phoenix canariensis, but i have some doubts about it. 
The leaves are soft and not stingy at all, seems like a pigmy date palm (phoenix roebeleni)

Can someone pls help me id the species of this phoenix?

pics are taken indoor because of bad stormy weather atm but it usually a stays in my patio.

thanks everyone!

[Dwarf Fan]

I don’t believe it is a Phoenix roebeleni it looks to definitely NOT be a Dwarf Palm either, because the size of the fronds and spacing of the leaflets are way too large already, it looks like it will be a large Date Palm of some type could very possibly be a Canary,  but I can’t give you a positive ID. Here are some pics for your reference.

Phoenix Canariensis 

phoenix roebeleni

[Nikoskater]

Thanks!

those pics are definitely clearing my doubts of a having a dwarf palm!

[Fusca]

On 11/2/2023 at 3:42 PM, Nikoskater said:

Hi everyone, I recently bought a phoenix palm.

it was sold as a 4 yrs old phoenix canariensis, but i have some doubts about it. 
The leaves are soft and not stingy at all, seems like a pigmy date palm (phoenix roebeleni)

Can someone pls help me id the species of this phoenix?

pics are taken indoor because of bad stormy weather atm but it usually a stays in my patio.

thanks everyone!

It's probably a hybrid with roebelenii.  What are the needle-like spines at the base of the petiole like?  If they're not stuff and sharp it might have rupicola in the parentage.

[Nikoskater]

23 hours ago, Fusca said:

It's probably a hybrid with roebelenii.  What are the needle-like spines at the base of the petiole like?  If they're not stuff and sharp it might have rupicola in the parentage.

No they’re not stiff nor sharp.

does a % of rupicola contamination means different hardiness or growth rate?

[Fusca]

On 11/5/2023 at 3:25 PM, Nikoskater said:

No they’re not stiff nor sharp.

does a % of rupicola contamination means different hardiness or growth rate?

I don't think a Phoenix hybrid will grow a lot faster but it probably depends on the amount of "contamination" .  Rupicola is less cold hardy than the other Phoenix species but still somewhat cold hardy so a hybrid would likely be less cold hardy than the other species in the mix.

[Nikoskater]

3 hours ago, Fusca said:

I don't think a Phoenix hybrid will grow a lot faster but it probably depends on the amount of "contamination" .  Rupicola is less cold hardy than the other Phoenix species but still somewhat cold hardy so a hybrid would likely be less cold hardy than the other species in the mix.

Thanks 🙏🏼 

[Fusca]

Here's a small Phoenix rupicola I saw today at Leu Gardens in Orlando.  

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Here's a small Phoenix rupicola I saw today at Leu Gardens in Orlando.  

Looks pretty similar to mine..

Shame I was looking for a canariensis, but I’ve bought it online from a private

[Dwarf Fan]

On 11/7/2023 at 2:39 PM, Nikoskater said:

Looks pretty similar to mine..

Shame I was looking for a canariensis, but I’ve bought it online from a private

I would be thrilled to have a P. rupicola you are lucky they are very RARE here!!!

I have a pile of P. canariensis seeds they are common here on my Island you can pick up seeds from the ground! I have collected so many I have them just sitting around waiting to be cleaned, because I have so many more exotic seeds ahead of them to clean and sprout I haven’t had the time to get to them yet! 
 

Very few Rupicolas in the US in general, I don’t think I have personally even seen a Rupicola in Texas yet! Corpus Christi alone has several Canariensis near the bay and scattered throughout the Islands.

[Fusca]

3 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Very few Rupicolas in the US in general, I don’t think I have personally even seen a Rupicola in Texas yet! Corpus Christi alone has several Canariensis near the bay and scattered throughout the Islands.

This is true, but if you ever come down to the RGV I have one here.  This is mine that was field dug from a local grower back in April that is just now starting to push new growth.  Unfortunately the thorns on mine are somewhat stiff so it's not likely pure but it is still a nice palm!  He had others that had flexible thorns but apparently I didn't get one of those.  @Reyes Vargas has a nice rupicola hybrid at his place about 25 miles west of me.

[Pal Meir]

For comparison my potted Ph. rupicola (*1983 from seed) in 2002 and 2008:

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

This is true, but if you ever come down to the RGV I have one here.  This is mine that was field dug from a local grower back in April that is just now starting to push new growth.  Unfortunately the thorns on mine are somewhat stiff so it's not likely pure but it is still a nice palm!  He had others that had flexible thorns but apparently I didn't get one of those.  @Reyes Vargas has a nice rupicola hybrid at his place about 25 miles west of me.

Oh thanks @Fusca 🙏🏼

but it’s just around the corner, I’m in Italy (unfortunately 😂)

 

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, Pal Meir said:

For comparison my potted Ph. rupicola (*1983 from seed) in 2002 and 2008:

Wow that’s impressing!

All the growth is in the sides, it does not grow in height!

is that been root chopped?

[RichardHemsley]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:39 PM, Nikoskater said:

Looks pretty similar to mine..

Shame I was looking for a canariensis, but I’ve bought it online from a private

Not a canariensis for sure, whatever you have its much nicer than a CIDP in my opinion.

[Nikoskater]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:07 PM, RichardHemsley said:

Not a canariensis for sure, whatever you have its much nicer than a CIDP in my opinion.

I hope it’s at least an hybrid!

I wanted a canariensis to have a “reminder” of a trip I did in Gran Canaria, like my Washingtonias are a throw back of a trip to LA!

[RichardHemsley]

Should be easy to source a canariensis in Italy I would have thought?

If you want to grow from seed I can send you some from Mallorca .

[wimmie]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:42 PM, Nikoskater said:

Hi everyone, I recently bought a phoenix palm.

it was sold as a 4 yrs old phoenix canariensis, but i have some doubts about it. 
The leaves are soft and not stingy at all, seems like a pigmy date palm (phoenix roebeleni)

Can someone pls help me id the species of this phoenix?

pics are taken indoor because of bad stormy weather atm but it usually a stays in my patio.

thanks everyone!

Might be a canariensis grown in low light!

[Nikoskater]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:26 PM, RichardHemsley said:

Should be easy to source a canariensis in Italy I would have thought?

If you want to grow from seed I can send you some from Mallorca .

Here you can find them 2-4 yrs old in the Home Depot equivalent, but they were not able until February so I I’ve bought it online from a private in Tuscany, listing was phoenix canariensis..

but thanks for the offer anyway

[Nikoskater]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:34 PM, wimmie said:

Might be a canariensis grown in low light!

Will see!  I try to give it as much sun as I can

[Pal Meir]

Again for comparison a Ph canariensis grown in low light:

[Nikoskater]

2 hours ago, Pal Meir said:

Again for comparison a Ph canariensis grown in low light:

Such a fast grow in just 1 year!

[Nikoskater]

What about this?

I’ve collected some seeds and after peeling them, they stayed 48hrs in water then I put them in a ziplock bag with wet paper around them and placed them over the radiator.

[Fusca]

21 hours ago, Nikoskater said:

What about this?

I’ve collected some seeds and after peeling them, they stayed 48hrs in water then I put them in a ziplock bag with wet paper around them and placed them over the radiator.

Those definitely look like Phoenix canariensis fruits/seeds.  Keep in mind that Phoenix palms are dioecious so the pollen doner must be another canariensis to grow a pure canariensis from that palm (assuming it is pure).  Did you notice other mature Phoenix palms growing in the area?

[Nikoskater]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

Those definitely look like Phoenix canariensis fruits/seeds.  Keep in mind that Phoenix palms are dioecious so the pollen doner must be another canariensis to grow a pure canariensis from that palm (assuming it is pure).  Did you notice other mature Phoenix palms growing in the area?

There where 3 of them in row, one each house!

seeds were taken from the center one, just because they were hanging right on the sidewalk.

I really don’t know what to do after seeds will start to sprout because outside it’s cold and I don’t have any window space to provide them good enough light. 
the only option would be the garage (50f) but no light at all

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, Nikoskater said:

There where 3 of them in row, one each house!

seeds were taken from the center one, just because they were hanging right on the sidewalk.

I really don’t know what to do after seeds will start to sprout because outside it’s cold and I don’t have any window space to provide them good enough light. 
the only option would be the garage (50f) but no light at all

That's good, sounds like you'll get your CIDP.  The seeds don't need light to germinate but will benefit from some bottom heat.  They won't likely germinate for another month or two so that should give you some time to find a place for them once the first strap leaves appear.  It won't hurt the new seedlings to stay inside for a few weeks before they get some good light.

[Nikoskater]

Seems like they’re doing fine!

not all of them sprouted I think because some paper towel were dried up.

I’m thinking about getting a timed growlight to make them survive and grow

[Dwarf Fan]

6 hours ago, Nikoskater said:

Seems like they’re doing fine!

not all of them sprouted I think because some paper towel were dried up.

I’m thinking about getting a timed growlight to make them survive and grow

Niko, congratulations on your successful germination!!!

How many days total did it take for your P. canariensis seeds to sprout? (I have a few germinating that I hope to see sprout any day now.)

[Nikoskater]

6 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Niko, congratulations on your successful germination!!!

How many days total did it take for your P. canariensis seeds to sprout? (I have a few germinating that I hope to see sprout any day now.)

11 days today!

Should I wait some more days/weeks for the others to sprout or is it better to pot them now?

[Dwarf Fan]

3 hours ago, Nikoskater said:

11 days today!

Should I wait some more days/weeks for the others to sprout or is it better to pot them now?

Wow, incredible I have heard some Palms can take several weeks or even months to sprout, I did not look into germination times for each species I am growing so I had no idea how long I would have to wait for my Canary seeds to sprout. Now I am excited to know that they are very fast, thank you for sharing your experience!

I would pot them each individually as soon as they sprout, some will spout faster than others of course, so I feel it is best to pot them immediately the same day you see the root emerge, so you don’t risk the root breaking during transplant.

Eventually you might be left with some seeds that do not sprout, you can put all those into a community pot and give the stubborn seeds one more final chance to grow… or just throw away the last remaining seeds that will not sprout if they are not a rare species and you have access to plenty more seeds.

I feel that the sooner you can get the root into the soil the faster they can start to take up nutrients (also less chance for root to dry out) and that hopefully means faster growth and less time to wait for a big size Palm ready to go in the ground.

This is how I was taught to grow all new plants, if any more experienced Palm growers have have a better technique please share.

[Nikoskater]

27 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Wow, incredible I have heard some Palms can take several weeks or even months to sprout, I did not look into germination times for each species I am growing so I had no idea how long I would have to wait for my Canary seeds to sprout. Now I am excited to know that they are very fast, thank you for sharing your experience!

I would pot them each individually as soon as they sprout, some will spout faster than others of course, so I feel it is best to pot them immediately the same day you see the root emerge, so you don’t risk the root breaking during transplant.

Eventually you might be left with some seeds that do not sprout, you can put all those into a community pot and give the stubborn seeds one more final chance to grow… or just throw away the last remaining seeds that will not sprout if they are not a rare species and you have access to plenty more seeds.

I feel that the sooner you can get the root into the soil the faster they can start to take up nutrients (also less chance for root to dry out) and that hopefully means faster growth and less time to wait for a big size Palm ready to go in the ground.

This is how I was taught to grow all new plants, if any more experienced Palm growers have have a better technique please share.

Thanks I’ll follow your advice!

is it best to pot them in closed cups or pots with drainage holes?

[Dwarf Fan]

29 minutes ago, Nikoskater said:

Thanks I’ll follow your advice!

is it best to pot them in closed cups or pots with drainage holes?

I prefer drainage holes to prevent over watering or roots getting rotten, this is always a concern with seedlings/new plants of any type. But you can use cheap disposable or plastic drinking cups if you don’t want to go out and spend money to buy small pots. It is very popular here in the US to use disposable “Party Cups” as a way to buy a bunch of seedling “pots” for cheap.

If you have a drill or you can heat a nail or screw with a stove or cigarette lighter to poke or cut holes in the disposable drinking cups this will work to make it into a small “pot”.

Question did you use a heat mat to germinate or put them in a warm place or just room temperature inside your house?

[Nikoskater]

12 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

I prefer drainage holes to prevent over watering or roots getting rotten, this is always a concern with seedlings/new plants of any type. But you can use cheap disposable or plastic drinking cups if you don’t want to go out and spend money to buy small pots. It is very popular here in the US to use disposable “Party Cups” as a way to buy a bunch of seedling “pots” for cheap.

If you have a drill or you can heat a nail or screw with a stove or cigarette lighter to poke or cut holes in the disposable drinking cups this will work to make it into a small “pot”.

Question did you use a heat mat to germinate or put them in a warm place or just room temperature inside your house?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

I went for the cups, even though here in Italy we don’t have red party cups, but clear ones.

To answer your questions, I’ve put the seeds in water for 48 hrs, then placed them in a wet/moist paper towel, rolled it up and put them inside a ziplock bag and located on a shelf on top of a heat radiator, and shaded with a metal sheet poster to keep it dark. Room temperature is always 64 f, but for two hours in the morning and 4-5 in the evening it reaches 70f, but the radiator pushes a lot of heat to get the room to 70f.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nikoskater

[Nikoskater]

This is what I ended up with.

10 sprouted seeds potted, 4 more pushing tiny roots, 17 black with mold (went straight to the trash can), few others left.

i think I’ll cover the tray with a plastic paper bag to keep moist and heat inside and placed them on the floor under the radiator.

will keep you guys updated!

 

[Fusca]

40 minutes ago, Nikoskater said:

This is what I ended up with.

10 sprouted seeds potted, 4 more pushing tiny roots, 17 black with mold (went straight to the trash can), few others left.

One thing to look for once the first leaf pops up - a twisted leaf indicates a female palm and a straight leaf is a male.    Note the following thread for this info:

 

 

[Nikoskater]

18 hours ago, Fusca said:

One thing to look for once the first leaf pops up - a twisted leaf indicates a female palm and a straight leaf is a male.    Note the following thread for this info:

 

 

Awesome!

I should keep a male and female, but don’t know if kept in pot they will ever produce seeds

[Nikoskater]

Two weeks later update.

most of the roots have reached the bottom of the cup, one is trying to escape! 

Should I let it do its thing or push it back somehow in the cup?

[Nikoskater]

Today I see a bud coming out!

I keep my box wrapped in a black plastic bag, do I need to separate the sprouting ones to let them be free and receive light o should I keep them closed?

[Harry’s Palms]

If it starts clumping , it could be a Reclinata . Mine didn’t start clumping until it was larger than yours . 

[Nikoskater]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:05 AM, Harry’s Palms said:

If it starts clumping , it could be a Reclinata . Mine didn’t start clumping until it was larger than yours . 

I guess i just need to wait, meanwhile I’ll just keep it potted, I’ll find a bigger one if the idea of planting it in the ground will remain!

do you have pictures of yours?