Could it be? - Butia odorata x Cocos nucifera F1

[Jonathan Haycock]

14 minutes ago, SFLP48584 said:

Does the seedling above, Jonathan's Buticocos nathanii, look more "tropically" bright green than does a typical Butia odorata seedling to anyone?

-John

It does to me, but I have significant confirmation bias 🤣.

In all seriousness though, I’ve grown many seedlings of Butia odorata over the years from multiple specimens and never had one as bright green as this. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Jonathan Haycock

[flplantguy]

Whichever way it goes this is really cool!  I hope it's exactly what everyone is hoping for!

[SFLP48584]

41 minutes ago, Jonathan Haycock said:

It does to me, but I have significant confirmation bias 🤣.

In all seriousness though, I’ve grown many seedlings of Butia odorata over the years from multiple specimens and never had one as bright green as this. 

Looking at a number of photos, I agree.  A wonderful accomplishment!

 

Now that the technique appears sound and there is a likely precedent for an intergeneric (of course) Cocos hybrid, a Cocos nucifera x Parajubaea torallyi would almost certainly even more closely resemble a Cocos nucifera.

-John

 

 

[Jonathan Haycock]

11 minutes ago, SFLP48584 said:

Looking at a number of photos, I agree.  A wonderful accomplishment!

 

Now that the technique appears sound and there is a likely precedent for an intergeneric (of course) Cocos hybrid, a Cocos nucifera x Parajubaea torallyi would almost certainly even more closely resemble a Cocos nucifera.

-John

 

 

For me Jubaea chilensis x Cocos nucifera or the reverse cross would be the holy grail. Imagine a monster trunked coconut that could take a freeze!!!

[happypalms]

9 hours ago, Jonathan Haycock said:

Thanks Richard.

I certainly feel privileged to be here that’s for sure, although I’m not an Aussie yet, just permanent resident (citizenship 2024).

I chose SE Queensland as it’s possible to grow a Cocos nucifera and Jubaea chilensis side by side 😂.

Enjoy our weather and the beaches some of the best in the world 

[awkonradi]

18 hours ago, SFLP48584 said:

Now that the technique appears sound and there is a likely precedent for an intergeneric (of course) Cocos hybrid, a Cocos nucifera x Parajubaea torallyi would almost certainly even more closely resemble a Cocos nucifera.

Totally agree that Cocos x Parajubaea and Parajubaea x Cocos would be interesting hybrids.  Given the close relationship of Cocos and Parajubaea, I think these "mules" might even be fertile, like Butia x Jubaea.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

Wow! Does not look like any Butia seedling I have ever grown. Congratulations.  My money is it it being the real thing due your careful techniques.

[Jonathan Haycock]

2 hours ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Wow! Does not look like any Butia seedling I have ever grown. Congratulations.  My money is it it being the real thing due your careful techniques.

Thanks Jeff. The texture of the leaf feels different too, but again, my confirmation bias is possibly kicking in 😂.

[tim_brissy_13]

I’d say it’s looking more likely than not to be the real deal too @Jonathan Haycock .  I know Butia odorata can be highly variable, but I’m also not sure whether I’ve seen one so bright from seedling size, although possibly your sub tropical climate may play a role. Fingers crossed!

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

57 minutes ago, Jonathan Haycock said:

Thanks Jeff. The texture of the leaf feels different too, but again, my confirmation bias is possibly kicking in 😂.

Does the leaf feel thicker / more rigid?

[ZPalms]

Woaaahhhhhhh 

[Jonathan Haycock]

1 hour ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I’d say it’s looking more likely than not to be the real deal too @Jonathan Haycock .  I know Butia odorata can be highly variable, but I’m also not sure whether I’ve seen one so bright from seedling size, although possibly your sub tropical climate may play a role. Fingers crossed!

It’s possible @tim_brissy_13, but I’ve grown Butia odorata from seed here too and they look the same as when I’ve grown them anywhere else. 

[Jonathan Haycock]

39 minutes ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Does the leaf feel thicker / more rigid?

The leaf feels slightly softer, almost velvety in texture.

[FlaPalmLover]

Very interesting. Following this.

[palmfriend]

A great documentation about a definitely thrilling and very exciting experiment!

Wishing you and your 'baby' all the best!

I am really looking forward to your updates -

regards from Okinawa

Lars 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

On 11/3/2023 at 6:17 PM, Jonathan Haycock said:

For me Jubaea chilensis x Cocos nucifera or the reverse cross would be the holy grail. Imagine a monster trunked coconut that could take a freeze!!!

You hit this on the nail as I have JxS being the holy grail hybrid at the moment. JxCoco is just plain unimaginable 😳 Wishing you luck in keeping your little specimen alive as it's absolutely 1 of its kind = ) 

T J 

[Brad Mondel]

Nice debut!

Finally we have a hybrid with a proper back story. I'm looking forward to it's future appearances! 

[SFLP48584]

What about Cocos x Lytocaryum?

-John

[Jonathan Haycock]

1 hour ago, SFLP48584 said:

What about Cocos x Lytocaryum?

-John

I’ve tried the same Cocos nucifera pollen on my Syagrus (aka Lytocaryum) weddellianum. Applied it to 3 inflorescence, all resulted in total flower drop. Also dusted it with Jubaea chilensis and Butia eriospatha (same result). 

I don’t have access to a mature Cocos nucifera to try the reverse cross, but will in a few years.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Jonathan Haycock

[Alberto]

Looks very promising! Congratulations with this achievement.

 

[Jonathan Haycock]

2 minutes ago, Alberto said:

Looks very promising! Congratulations with this achievement.

 

Thanks Alberto. I appreciate your input as I know this is a topic you’ve been interested in for quite some years.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

The work you did is fantastic but as a scientist I draw a very different conclusion than you do based on the data. Forgive my skepticism but when you get that few takes, it's usually proof there's a pollination incompatibility, which you have amply demonstrated. If one seed did become viable, it's more likely due to butia pollen contamination than to an exception to the pollen incompatibility.

I understand the desire to hope for an actual successful cross, I don't think it's very likely. 

[tim_brissy_13]

1 hour ago, Mauna Kea Cloudforest said:

The work you did is fantastic but as a scientist I draw a very different conclusion than you do based on the data. Forgive my skepticism but when you get that few takes, it's usually proof there's a pollination incompatibility, which you have amply demonstrated. If one seed did become viable, it's more likely due to butia pollen contamination than to an exception to the pollen incompatibility.

I understand the desire to hope for an actual successful cross, I don't think it's very likely. 

I had the same thought, but there is a lot of existing data on hybrid pollination leading to low fertile seed yield percentage. The compatibility/incompatibility seems not to be black and white but rather a function of probability (although of course there will be cases of complete incompatibility based on genetics). Either way, of course the jury is still out but I think there is some hope here. 

[swolf]

2 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I had the same thought, but there is a lot of existing data on hybrid pollination leading to low fertile seed yield percentage. The compatibility/incompatibility seems not to be black and white but rather a function of probability (although of course there will be cases of complete incompatibility based on genetics). Either way, of course the jury is still out but I think there is some hope here. 

Well Said.  On an intuitive level I like the look of that tiny seedling to be that ultra-rare cross we would enjoy watching develop to maturity.  If so, let’s along the way try to identify the receptive combo from the three Coconut pollens utilized.  I do have ONE Butia x Parajubaea F1 that has given birth to a couple F2 seedlings despite the low odds, so let’s hope for the best 👍

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

3 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I had the same thought, but there is a lot of existing data on hybrid pollination leading to low fertile seed yield percentage. The compatibility/incompatibility seems not to be black and white but rather a function of probability (although of course there will be cases of complete incompatibility based on genetics). Either way, of course the jury is still out but I think there is some hope here. 

Ok fair point but taking into account the number of failed past attempts, I think some serious skepticism is called for. Time might be better spent hybridizing beccariophoenix with butia or queen to get a coconut-like palm into zone 9a, or better yet parajubaea pollen onto a coconut.

[richnorm]

5 hours ago, Mauna Kea Cloudforest said:

The work you did is fantastic but as a scientist I draw a very different conclusion than you do based on the data. Forgive my skepticism but when you get that few takes, it's usually proof there's a pollination incompatibility, which you have amply demonstrated. If one seed did become viable, it's more likely due to butia pollen contamination than to an exception to the pollen incompatibility.

I understand the desire to hope for an actual successful cross, I don't think it's very likely. 

I guess the pollen was somewhat compatible otherwise there wouldn't have been fruit set.  I don't think these set any fruit in the abscence of pollen.

[Tom in Tucson]

4 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

I had the same thought, but there is a lot of existing data on hybrid pollination leading to low fertile seed yield percentage. The compatibility/incompatibility seems not to be black and white but rather a function of probability (although of course there will be cases of complete incompatibility based on genetics). Either way, of course the jury is still out but I think there is some hope here. 

A case in point is of the current "holy grail" of cocoid palms, the JxQ hybrid first made popular by Pat Shafer. He stated many times that his seed yield for all his effort was very low. Now the parents that at least provided that yield are no longer available to him. I understand that he has been trying to find new parents to produce these seeds again, but has not found any yet. Since even when he had that low yield he would be able to recoup a small profit on the time he invested, it must be very frustrating to repeat the steps he took before, and have nothing to show for it.

Hi 95°, Lo 55°

 

[Dwarf Fan]

Good luck Johnathon we are all rooting for you in 9b zones around the world, I hope you prove it can be done!

[Jonathan Haycock]

11 hours ago, Mauna Kea Cloudforest said:

The work you did is fantastic but as a scientist I draw a very different conclusion than you do based on the data. Forgive my skepticism but when you get that few takes, it's usually proof there's a pollination incompatibility, which you have amply demonstrated. If one seed did become viable, it's more likely due to butia pollen contamination than to an exception to the pollen incompatibility.

I understand the desire to hope for an actual successful cross, I don't think it's very likely. 

It’s quite normal to get low yields for first generation cocoid hybrids, dependant on species of course. The following results are from first hand experience:

Butia odorata x Jubaea chilensis F1 - 2 inflorescence, circa 2000 ripe fruit, 50 viable seed.

Butia odorata x Parajubaea torallyi var torallyi F1 - 2 inflorescence, circa 2000 ripe fruit, 115 viable seed.

Butia odorata x Syagrus schizophylla F1 - 1 inflorescence, circa 500 ripe fruit, 3 viable seed.

Butia odorata x Syagrus coronata F1 - 1 inflorescence, circa 500 ripe fruit, 7 viable seed.

I think it’s fair to say the above would be considered “low take”, yet all resulting palms are confirmed hybrids. I’ve never had any contamination resulting in a pure/unintentional seedling. I’ve had plenty of failures though (total flower/fruit drop, solid endocarps etc). 

I am however, questioning the effectiveness of diluting pollen in distilled water, and wondering if I’d have had more success applying pollen dry with a fine paint brush (as I’ve done before).

Up until the seed popping, I’d have agreed with your last statement. However, this seedling just doesn’t look like any normal Butia to my eye. I may well be proved wrong. 

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:21 AM, Jonathan Haycock said:

I am however, questioning the effectiveness of diluting pollen in distilled water, and wondering if I’d have had more success applying pollen dry with a fine paint brush (as I’ve done before).

I was going to mention that in my above post but did not want to question the method. I would think you would get better percentages with dry pollen brushed on. And with the amount of pollen you had then bagging the inflorescence and blowing in pollen should give better coverage. I also understand Axel/Mauna Kea' s skepticism though.  I too had that thought but considered the careful method and the look of the seedling to lean towards it being a successful cross.

[Merlyn]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:29 PM, Jonathan Haycock said:

... I believe the Butia odorata x Cocos nucifera F1 hybrid attempt has been a success, therefore from this point forward I will call it Buticocos nathanii.

Great documentation, I hope this worked!  I'd guess it'll be obvious by the 2nd or 3rd leaf.  Of course the first thing I thought of from your naming was Hugo the Abominable Snowman..."Just what I always wanted.  My own little hybrid palm.  I will name him Buticocos nathanii, and I will hug him and pet him and squeeze him..."

[coco305]

This looks amazing, I know nothing about cross pollination of palms but I am hoping this is actual a hybrid. 

Can't wait to see it whatever it results in after 1 year of growth

I hope to one day have a Beauticocos Nathanii growing in my 9b yard.

Cheers

[FlaPalmLover]

3 hours ago, coco305 said:

This looks amazing, I know nothing about cross pollination of palms but I am hoping this is actual a hybrid. 

Can't wait to see it whatever it results in after 1 year of growth

I hope to one day have a Beauticocos Nathanii growing in my 9b yard.

Cheers

I hope it's successful too, but your 9b yard in Naples, FL? 🤨 You should be able to grow a regular coconut palm there right now. That's 10a.

[Tom in Tucson]

2 hours ago, coco305 said:

This looks amazing, I know nothing about cross pollination of palms but I am hoping this is actual a hybrid. 

Can't wait to see it whatever it results in after 1 year of growth

I hope to one day have a Beauticocos Nathanii growing in my 9b yard.

Cheers

I agree that a hybrid with this parentage is amazing, and possibly could usher in a huge volume of new hybrid zealots, such as myself. If a reliable method could be found for increasing the yield of seedling to nearly the same level as is currently achieved with the standard mule (BxQ), the results IMHO would go far beyond just being amazing, they would be potentially phenomenal! If I could grow both parents here, I would gladly try to repeat the methods used, and if successful, hone in and refine each step needed to create a higher volume of seeds. Once the number of seedlings reach acceptable levels for making the venture profitable, the market would be enormous.

The initial enthusiasm for growing Beccariophoenix alfredii started a similar level of excitement, but over time their expected hardiness was sadly never realized.

What needs to happen to make this dream a reality, are more palm breeders with the conditions required for doing more trials. I hope that the results already achieved will spur those living in the climate needed to conduct these trials to join in and help with this exciting project.

Hi 63°, Lo 37°

[coco305]

14 minutes ago, Tom in Tucson said:

I agree that a hybrid with this parentage is amazing, and possibly could usher in a huge volume of new hybrid zealots, such as myself. If a reliable method could be found for increasing the yield of seedling to nearly the same level as is currently achieved with the standard mule (BxQ), the results IMHO would go far beyond just being amazing, they would be potentially phenomenal! If I could grow both parents here, I would gladly try to repeat the methods used, and if successful, hone in and refine each step needed to create a higher volume of seeds. Once the number of seedlings reach acceptable levels for making the venture profitable, the market would be enormous.

The initial enthusiasm for growing Beccariophoenix alfredii started a similar level of excitement, but over time their expected hardiness was sadly never realized.

What needs to happen to make this dream a reality, are more palm breeders with the conditions required for doing more trials. I hope that the results already achieved will spur those living in the climate needed to conduct these trials to join in and help with this exciting project.

Hi 63°, Lo 37°

yea but beccariophoenix alfredii was not a hybrid just a naturally occurring palm on the high slopes of madagascar. 

I feel like there might actually still be unknown palm species out there on high slopes somewhere.  The local people probably don't care much since its just the local foliage to their lands so they don't consider them to be anything special.  Also the professional scientists studying palms and plants usually are spread thin.  So they do not focus on just finding cold hardy coconut palms. 

I feel like only a palmtalk member would be good for searching out cold hardy cocos because they know what they are looking for and want.  They don't care about the science, the history or the ecosystem.  they just want the cold hardy cocos to grow in their yard.

[coco305]

Would it be possible to perform the same pollination with a chilean wine palm?  That could be the absolute holy grail of palms.  Imagine a palm three that large with coconuts.  It would be an absolute monster. Also its nuts are more similar to coconuts so it might be more related genetically. 

[Jonathan Haycock]

12 hours ago, coco305 said:

Would it be possible to perform the same pollination with a chilean wine palm?  That could be the absolute holy grail of palms.  Imagine a palm three that large with coconuts.  It would be an absolute monster. Also its nuts are more similar to coconuts so it might be more related genetically. 

I recall someone mentioned Patrick Schafer tried Cocos nucifera on the late Dick Douglas’s Jubaea, but I don’t think it was successful. That doesn’t mean it’s not possible though as each parent and pollen donor are different when it comes to compatibility, plus the climate in Walnut Creek, CA may not be conducive to such a pairing. 

I agree, Jubaea x Cocos would be the holy grail of cold/cool hardy hybrids. Problem is gaining access to a mature Jubaea to work on. I’m at least 30 years from my own maturing. 

[James B]

Amazing work!

I still can’t believe nobody in California is crossing Parajubea and Cocos considering how close they are genetically.

Perhaps it would be best of both worlds: the Parajubea would give improved cold hardiness and potentially the Cocos would give give more heat tolerance especially with humidity.

[coco305]

if this turns out to be an actual coconut hybrid you have made history. looking forward to seeing updates to see if you have cracked the holy grail of cold hardy cocos.

[Tom in Tucson]

On 12/3/2023 at 12:20 PM, Jonathan Haycock said:

I recall someone mentioned Patrick Schafer tried Cocos nucifera on the late Dick Douglas’s Jubaea, but I don’t think it was successful. That doesn’t mean it’s not possible though as each parent and pollen donor are different when it comes to compatibility, plus the climate in Walnut Creek, CA may not be conducive to such a pairing. 

I agree, Jubaea x Cocos would be the holy grail of cold/cool hardy hybrids. Problem is gaining access to a mature Jubaea to work on. I’m at least 30 years from my own maturing. 

Sorry for the late reply, but I've been busy... When you have the time. I would very much like to see the conditions that your Jubaea grow's in (microclimate) in that somewhat warm Australian province.

Hi 55°, Lo 46° Dec 23 .05"

Edited December 24, 2023 by Tom in Tucson
I f'ed up