Surprising palm location - Colorado

[Southwesternsol]

I was browsing through iNaturalist and spotted an observation in Colorado. Often times these kind of observtions are misidentifications or potted plants, but this one is an actual Trachycarpus. From the looks of it, it seems to be thriving too. Granted, I'm not too surprised as the grand valley is one of the warmest areas of Colorado, with Junction being around a 7b these days. Though Clifton is a little colder than Junction, I believe. Solid evidence that high deserts of the west are more mild than often given credit for. Either way very cool to see in a location you wouldn't expect it.

inaturalist.org/observations/187850045

 

[JacoPalmsCo]

As someone that lives in colorado and loves palms, this is great news. 

[SeanK]

My buddies in Steamboat refer to Grand Junction as "the banana belt" due to its milder winters.

[Southwesternsol]

  On 11/8/2023 at 7:11 PM, SeanK said:

My buddies in Steamboat refer to Grand Junction as "the banana belt" due to its milder winters.

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I would say that applies to all of the lower elevations of the western slope. The eastern plains on average are fairly mild, but are vulnerable to those arctic fronts that bring pretty extreme temperatures to the region. Places like Junction, Montrose, or Cortez typically just get a few really brisk mornings in the winter.  The rockies are a great barrier to those cold fronts

[SeanK]

Does the Denver airport still have a display of ancient palm fossils?

[jwitt]

@Southwesternsol

Part of the key is in your name.  Sun + elevation= higher intensity(more heat/light energy) for every 1000' feet altitude to the tune of 6-10%. 

That is why a telephone pole is warm to the touch at 25f on a sunny day in ABQ, but not so much in N Texas. 

On a side note, there is a larger trachy(over ten feet) in Grand Junction that has been posted about. 

The sun and light is different. If you know, you know!

[Southwesternsol]

  On 11/8/2023 at 11:25 PM, jwitt said:

@Southwesternsol

Part of the key is in your name.  Sun + elevation= higher intensity(more heat/light energy) for every 1000' feet altitude to the tune of 6-10%. 

That is why a telephone pole is warm to the touch at 25f on a sunny day in ABQ, but not so much in N Texas. 

On a side note, there is a larger trachy(over ten feet) in Grand Junction that has been posted about. 

The sun and light is different. If you know, you know!

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Absolutely, plus the dry weather and temps that recover quickly after those brisk mornings. Also why snow doesn't usually last more than a few days. I also have a friend in Junction who swears 100 there is worse than 100 in vegas, but I don't know about that.

  On 11/8/2023 at 8:47 PM, SeanK said:

Does the Denver airport still have a display of ancient palm fossils?

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Couldn't tell you, I've never been. Though on the point of fossils, I do find it intriguing that a truly hardy palm never seemed to evolve. I know that the anatomy of a plant can affect things like hardiness, but there are plants such as Yuccas which are anatomically quite similar but also significantly hardier.

[Alex High]

  On 11/8/2023 at 6:30 PM, Southwesternsol said:

I was browsing through iNaturalist and spotted an observation in Colorado. Often times these kind of observtions are misidentifications or potted plants, but this one is an actual Trachycarpus. From the looks of it, it seems to be thriving too. Granted, I'm not too surprised as the grand valley is one of the warmest areas of Colorado, with Junction being around a 7b these days. Though Clifton is a little colder than Junction, I believe. Solid evidence that high deserts of the west are more mild than often given credit for. Either way very cool to see in a location you wouldn't expect it.

inaturalist.org/observations/187850045

 

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Really great find! Looks like there are some more Trachys next to it in the frond yard:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0732937,-108.4514858,3a,15y,319.14h,85.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skVrlxw185I5ttwqPv2VUXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

As was mentioned, there is a Trachycarpus wagnerianus in Grand Junction that has been there since before the first Street View of the area in 2008. I believe the only protection it gets is some cover/wrapping of the crown, but I'm not sure.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.068254,-108.5593578,3a,15y,35.72h,89.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMAlXaR_Ky8RFw1Bc8MdsVg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

I believe this is a Sabal minor (?) growing beside it in the bushes:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0682983,-108.5590461,3a,15y,347.27h,85.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI-y_OoxUgY-bW0gnCq2KpQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

There are also several Sabal minor at the Denver Botanic Gardens, apparently planted in 2002-2003 and never protected. Here are some photos of them from Facebook:

[jwitt]

  On 11/9/2023 at 1:52 AM, Southwesternsol said:

. I also have a friend in Junction who swears 100 there is worse than 100 in vegas, but I don't know about that

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@Southwesternsol

With the 2500' elevation difference the sun energy is 15-25% greater in Grand Junction than Las Vegas.

That is a noticeable difference in the sun! For both humans and plants. 

[SeanK]

  On 11/9/2023 at 2:07 PM, jwitt said:

@Southwesternsol

With the 2500' elevation difference the sun energy is 15-25% greater in Grand Junction than Las Vegas.

That is a noticeable difference in the sun! For both humans and plants. 

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My guess is that GJ is a little more humid than LV. 

[jwitt]

  On 11/9/2023 at 3:32 PM, SeanK said:

My guess is that GJ is a little more humid than LV. 

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Probably a true statement except when it is 100f in GJ, guaranteed!

[Southwesternsol]

  On 11/9/2023 at 5:18 AM, Alex High said:

There are also several Sabal minor at the Denver Botanic Gardens, apparently planted in 2002-2003 and never protected.

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I have to imagine they get some protection a few times during winter.  Like I said the eastern plains on average are fairly nice in winter, but they do get some pretty extreme temps from those arctic cold fronts. Very nice to the other Trachy's and some Sabals in Junction though, especially since where I'm at is only slightly colder than Junction, so anything that grows there should also be fine here.

[Alex High]

  On 11/9/2023 at 10:13 PM, Southwesternsol said:

I have to imagine they get some protection a few times during winter.  Like I said the eastern plains on average are fairly nice in winter, but they do get some pretty extreme temps from those arctic cold fronts. Very nice to the other Trachy's and some Sabals in Junction though, especially since where I'm at is only slightly colder than Junction, so anything that grows there should also be fine here.

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I wonder, you can see in the pictures that they put lights around the palms which provides some heat. The guy who posted the palms on Facebook said they have never been protected. They are in a good sheltered spot up against a building. I think Denver dropped to -15 last winter but it bounced back up to the 40s and 50s soon after. It definitely gets cold out on the plains in those deep freezes, but it always warms up quickly, the dry cold makes a big difference, so even -15 should be fine for needles and Sabal minor if it warms up soon after.

[jwitt]

  On 11/10/2023 at 12:23 PM, Alex High said:

I wonder, you can see in the pictures that they put lights around the palms which provides some heat. The guy who posted the palms on Facebook said they have never been protected. They are in a good sheltered spot up against a building. I think Denver dropped to -15 last winter but it bounced back up to the 40s and 50s soon after. It definitely gets cold out on the plains in those deep freezes, but it always warms up quickly, the dry cold makes a big difference, so even -15 should be fine for needles and Sabal minor if it warms up soon afte

  On 11/10/2023 at 12:23 PM, Alex High said:

I wonder, you can see in the pictures that they put lights around the palms which provides some heat. The guy who posted the palms on Facebook said they have never been protected. They are in a good sheltered spot up against a building. I think Denver dropped to -15 last winter but it bounced back up to the 40s and 50s soon after. It definitely gets cold out on the plains in those deep freezes, but it always warms up quickly, the dry cold makes a big difference, so even -15 should be fine for needles and Sabal minor if it warms up soon after.

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All cold air is dry. 

All

That is a scientific property of air. Just look at the dew point, which is the actual measurement of moisture in the air.  

That said. Denver and it's more common, deeper arctic outbreaks(than GJ)are accompanied with rain/snow with most events.  Snow can also protect.

Not so much arctic outbreaks and snow in GJ. 

Both locales are subject to lengthy inversions. 

Denver has twice the precipitation than GJ and much less sun, with greater winter extremes, both warm and cold than GJ 

 

[Southwesternsol]

  On 11/10/2023 at 12:23 PM, Alex High said:

I wonder, you can see in the pictures that they put lights around the palms which provides some heat. The guy who posted the palms on Facebook said they have never been protected. They are in a good sheltered spot up against a building. I think Denver dropped to -15 last winter but it bounced back up to the 40s and 50s soon after. It definitely gets cold out on the plains in those deep freezes, but it always warms up quickly, the dry cold makes a big difference, so even -15 should be fine for needles and Sabal minor if it warms up soon after.

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I don't know about last winters temperatures, but I know that cities on the front range not only get night time lows well below zero, but often day time highs well below freezing. Sometimes they'll have below freezing temps for several days. Though once the cold front passes it does warm back up pretty well. Out here on the Colorado plateau, we rarely have days below freezing even during cold fronts. This past winter was the coldest wettest winter I've seen here, and I think the coldest days we got were like 28 at most.

[jwitt]

  On 11/10/2023 at 5:43 PM, Southwesternsol said:

cities on the front range not only get night time lows well below zero, but often day time highs well below freezing.

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Exactly!

[Southwesternsol]

  On 11/10/2023 at 5:59 PM, jwitt said:

Exactly!

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Still, even if it's protected that's impressive that Sabal Minor is growing in Denver, and again makes me feel more confident out here on the plateau.

[Jimhardy]

"All cold air is dry."  false....if true- it would never snow.

 

"All cold air is dry". ....after it passes through the furnace and is warmed +50-70F.

 

There fixed it😉

[Aceraceae]

The airport shows that even for 1991 to 2020 the average temperature in December and January is below freezing, in the upper 20s in fact. This would make it hard pressed to grow unprotected palms even with sunny weather. If anything Needle and Sabal minor should be more common there, and a lot of trunking Yucca like rostrata. 

The airport is a few miles NE of the city and a few hundred feet higher than the lower spots, maybe that and microclimate, given the high sun percentage, is enough to make the few degrees difference in coldest month avg temp. 

[jwitt]

  On 11/11/2023 at 1:06 PM, Jimhardy said:

"All cold air is dry."  false....if true- it would never snow.

 

"All cold air is dry". ....after it passes through the furnace and is warmed +50-70F.

 

There fixed it😉

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What would you consider a dry or wet dew point?

At what dew point is too dry for snow?

Honest question.

Edited November 11, 2023 by jwitt

[SeanK]

  On 11/10/2023 at 12:23 PM, Alex High said:

I wonder, you can see in the pictures that they put lights around the palms which provides some heat. The guy who posted the palms on Facebook said they have never been protected. They are in a good sheltered spot up against a building. I think Denver dropped to -15 last winter but it bounced back up to the 40s and 50s soon after. It definitely gets cold out on the plains in those deep freezes, but it always warms up quickly, the dry cold makes a big difference, so even -15 should be fine for needles and Sabal minor if it warms up soon after.

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Honestly, when someone in z7 or colder says he doesn't protect, I don't believe him.

[jwitt]

  On 11/11/2023 at 4:46 PM, SeanK said:

Honestly, when someone in z7 or colder says he doesn't protect, I don't believe him.

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Do rocks nearby count as protection?

Honestly?

[Jimhardy]

The closer the dew point is to the temp the "wetter" it is, higher humidity....I do think I know what your getting

at though, when it is super cold you don't need as much saturation to the air to get snow.

I have seen it snowing with humidity in the upper 60s when we had Arctic cold.

I also recall a cold front coming through the desert in Az one late winter day and

the temp was near 80F with a dew point of -2F I didn't get how that was possible...

the humidity was around 3% remarkable for sure, the west is different....that was cold Arctic air

coming downslope (warmed) into the desert!

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 11/11/2023 at 8:33 PM, Jimhardy said:

The closer the dew point is to the temp the "wetter" it is, higher humidity....I do think I know what your getting

at though, when it is super cold you don't need as much saturation to the air to get snow.

I have seen it snowing with humidity in the upper 60s when we had Arctic cold.

I also recall a cold front coming through the desert in Az one late winter day and

the temp was near 80F with a dew point of -2F I didn't get how that was possible...

the humidity was around 3% remarkable for sure, the west is different....that was cold Arctic air

coming downslope (warmed) into the desert!

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Yep... This occurs quite often actually ..though more in the spring / leading into the start of summer ..Right before the torch fest sets in..

I too had never seen / experienced both Humidity and Dew Point #s in the  negative  digits until moving here.  What's wild is ..on a day when it is 105F,  that -5% Humidity / -5deg Dew Point ..and a slight breeze.. makes it feel like it is only in the upper 80s. That said, everything drys out incredibly fast.

Agree too ..Living in Both KS and Ohio, humidity was typically in the %' age value range you mentioned whenever it snowed ..or we got Iced...  Those rarer days when it was really cold ..and really dry?  No precip,  though it seemed that was when i'd see Diamond Dust, and / or Light Pillars  around street lights.

[jwitt]

  On 11/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

  On 11/11/2023 at 8:49 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

 

I too had never seen / experienced both Humidity and Dew Point #s in the  negative  digits until moving here. 

 

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If this is true, you have never seen temperatures below zero regardless of the dewpoint or where. 

There is no such thing as negative humidity 

[jwitt]

  On 11/11/2023 at 8:33 PM, Jimhardy said:

The closer the dew point is to the temp the "wetter" it is, higher humidity....I do think I know what your getting

at though, when it is super cold you don't need as much saturation to the air to get snow.

I have seen it snowing with humidity in the upper 60s when we had Arctic cold.

I also recall a cold front coming through the desert in Az one late winter day and

the temp was near 80F with a dew point of -2F I didn't get how that was possible...

the humidity was around 3% remarkable for sure, the west is different....that was cold Arctic air

coming downslope (warmed) into the desert!

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Question, what is the relative humidity in Iowa when it is say 10f outside? Normally. 

[jwitt]

  On 11/11/2023 at 8:33 PM, Jimhardy said:

The closer the dew point is to the temp the "wetter" it is, higher humidity....I do think I know what your getting

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I said all cold air is dry.

That includes cold air with higher relative humidity.

Air at 32f with 100% rh is drier than 100f air at 9% rh, or in plain language, less moisture.

[Jimhardy]

Thats the area I was in when I saw that...early 2000s don't exactly remember the month

but I was riding/mountain biking on South Mountain...lots of hydration needed as that 

dry air wicks the moisture right off/out of your skin/lungs!

[Jimhardy]

  On 11/11/2023 at 10:09 PM, jwitt said:

I said all cold air is dry.

That includes cold air with higher relative humidity.

Air at 32f with 100% rh is drier than 100f air at 9% rh, or in plain language, less moisture.

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We have a different definition of the word dry.

 

At 32F the air can hold less moisture than air that is 100F, cold air is denser.

[jwitt]

  On 11/12/2023 at 4:40 AM, Jimhardy said:

We have a different definition of the word dry.

 

At 32F the air can hold less moisture than air that is 100F, cold air is denser.

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All cold air is dry

If a cubic foot(volume) of air at 32f can hold a maximum of less than 1/4 drop of water and be 100%rh(the maximum). It can get no wetter.  It is still dry.  Same as 100f air at less 10%rh, still dry. 

Cold air cannot hold moisture, therefore it is dry. 

Throw  in Colorado's elevation(less dense) and high diurnal temperature's, you get more drying. 

So if you take that 100f dry air in an balloon, cool it to 32f, the amount of moisture does not change. Only the air's ability to absorb, or hold that moisture.  A fraction of a drop in either case= dry. 

Or, the max amount 32f air at a certain volume can only hold a miniscule amount of moisture.  And lees moisture as the temperature drops.  

All cold air is dry as dew point(wet bulb) is the true measurement of moisture in the air.  Dew point can never be above ambient temperature.  So a 20f dew point is dry air,  because there is literally no moisture in the air, whether that 20f dew point is in 25f air or 100f air, the volume of water is the same, as is the volume of air.  Therefore all cold air is dry. 

[ChicagoPalma]

  On 11/10/2023 at 5:59 PM, jwitt said:

Exactly!

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even a full blown trachy fortunei in denver would survive the cold dry -10 air.

[Silas_Sancona]

  On 11/12/2023 at 2:32 AM, Jimhardy said:

Thats the area I was in when I saw that...early 2000s don't exactly remember the month

but I was riding/mountain biking on South Mountain...lots of hydration needed as that 

dry air wicks the moisture right off/out of your skin/lungs!

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Having lived in 5 states, each w/ very different climate profiles, agree, lol ..There is no place like the desert in terms of what constitutes dry ..and hot.. 

CA, KS, and OH i could be outside all summer and never get dehydrated..  In CA, when i wasn't on a trail somewhere, i'd do 30-150 mile bike rides 2x's a month, even during the hotter parts of summers there.

Drink enough water, and you're good ..98% of the time in FL.. For me, the only times i felt a hint of dehydration there were on those days ..rare as they are there.. when it was hot ..and  dry ( FL " dry " would = Dew Points / Humidity in the 35-45 range, which is borderline moist by desert standards ).

Not sure it is possible to consume enough water here w/ out killing one's self ..from drinking too much water.. Even when you do ( consume enough water to maintain hydration ) you can still get into trouble ..ask me how i know, let alone all 569 people the heat + dry air killed this summer here in just  Maricopa County, not the entire state. 60-85 deaths are still being evaluated.

The 569 confirmed deaths alone would = ~roughly~ half of all the people i went to high school with... Never experienced heat exhaustion / stroke until moving here ..And that's just while working, ..not while doing any strenuous hiking / working in the yard / other activities where any moisture you contain is quickly squeezed out of you when it is that hot ..and dry..

Worked outdoors in every state i've lived in..

[jwitt]

  On 11/12/2023 at 3:34 PM, ChicagoPalma said:

even a full blown trachy fortunei in denver would survive the cold dry -10 air.

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Got any proof? 

Or is your gut talking?

[ChicagoPalma]

  On 11/12/2023 at 7:40 PM, jwitt said:

Got any proof? 

Or is your gut talking?

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In most Trachycarpus deaths when exposed to cold, the cold air has moisture. Trachycarpus is native to Himalayas, and they do have very cold temperatures but most of the time it is at such a high elevation it is sunny most of the time and precipitation does not last very long. Moisture levels are very low in the higher elevations of Himalayas and all the snow is condensed clouds. Sorry for me blabbering, but to summarize it, native Trachycarpus that live in Himalayas can tolerate such temperatures for a low period of time.

[jwitt]

All cold air is dry.

70f air at 20% rh has the same amount of moisture as 32f air at 100% rh. 

And colder is even drier. 

A psychometric chart is proof.

 

[RFun]

I'm always impressed with the braver zone pushers out there.  They can be a great indicator for hardier varieties.  You can always grab the ladder and burlap if you want to.

Edited November 13, 2023 by RFun

[RFun]

  On 11/10/2023 at 5:40 PM, jwitt said:

All cold air is dry. 

All

That is a scientific property of air. Just look at the dew point, which is the actual measurement of moisture in the air.  

That said. Denver and it's more common, deeper arctic outbreaks(than GJ)are accompanied with rain/snow with most events.  Snow can also protect.

Not so much arctic outbreaks and snow in GJ. 

Both locales are subject to lengthy inversions. 

Denver has twice the precipitation than GJ and much less sun, with greater winter extremes, both warm and cold than GJ 

 

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Yes, the really cold air is going to be quite dry, regardless.

Edited November 13, 2023 by RFun

[Las Palmas Norte]

  On 11/12/2023 at 2:32 PM, jwitt said:

Cold air cannot hold moisture, therefore it is dry. 

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Perhaps true in interior regions. It's another story in coastal PNW areas. High humidity on cold days where snow is forecast is a gardeners worst case. Snow is wet and sticks like glue to plants and trees. Snow is very heavy and is like wet cement covering the gardens. Plant collapse and limb breakage is common. How do I know, I've lived here since 1969.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Las Palmas Norte

[Southwesternsol]

  On 11/13/2023 at 7:27 AM, RFun said:

I'm always impressed with the braver zone pushers out there.  They can be a great indicator for hardier varieties.  You can always grab the ladder and burlap if you want to.

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Yeah, although I wouldn't consider Trachycarpus in 7b to be much for zone pushing.

[jwitt]

  On 11/13/2023 at 5:15 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Perhaps true in interior regions. It's another story in coastal PNW areas. High humidity on cold days where snow is forecast is a gardeners worst case. Snow is wet and sticks like glue to plants and trees. Snow is very heavy and is like wet cement covering the gardens. Plant collapse and limb breakage is common. How do I know, I've lived here since 1969.

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Same in the west(where it snows).  

All cold air is dry, even 30f air at high humidity.  

True anywhere, it is a property of air, regardless where.

What you described is a function of temperature. Snowing near freezing temperatures.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by jwitt