Zone 9 Palms in NC

[BigBilly]

Now that the Outerbanks are officially listed as a Zone 9A, What zone 9 Palms could be grown there? 

[MarcusH]

The same as before.  Only the average temperature went up but not the ultimate low. 

[RFun]

1 hour ago, BigBilly said:

Now that the Outerbanks are officially listed as a Zone 9A, What zone 9 Palms could be grown there? 

You can try some different palms if you want.  No guarantees going forward, as always.  I would think some gardeners will get more aggressive just by the release of this map.  Even though, it's just a map that lacks serious details lol.  I'm hoping Arbor Day will release another revised map with more microclimate detail.

Edited November 15, 2023 by RFun

[SeanK]

I'm sure there are W.robustas out there already. Try a CIDP and in a sheltered alcove, perhaps R.excelsis (so it can be covered easily).

[knikfar]

The updated maps don't really change anything. If something didn't survive in our climates within the last 5 years, its not likely to survive there today. Here in Raleigh, we got bumped up to a solid 8a. But 4 of the last 10 winters have been 7b winters. So the new designation doesn't mean much since plants less hardy than 10f  would have been killed in those four winters. 

[BigBilly]

52 minutes ago, knikfar said:

The updated maps don't really change anything. If something didn't survive in our climates within the last 5 years, its not likely to survive there today. Here in Raleigh, we got bumped up to a solid 8a. But 4 of the last 10 winters have been 7b winters. So the new designation doesn't mean much since plants less hardy than 10f  would have been killed in those four winters. 

Yeah but I mean even so I've been wondering for a while, The Outerbanks doesn't really get cold at all and the freezes are really short duration. But nobody really seems to plant anything other than sabals there...? 

[WSimpson]

The only thing that jumps out at me is the wind , more than cold . That wind can really trash a palm , but in a good microclimate ? Also the soil being sand and all could be a factor . I would have a load  good clay driven in and dig out a huge area of sand and fill it and see if palms do better growing in more fertile and soil that can hold moisture better  . Magnesium sulfate and fertilizing and watering , and then maybe a nice Butia , Chamaerops , and others could grow well there ? One of the  mildest parts of NC and has less wind ,  I would assume , is that 8B area near Cedar Island . I don't know if there are many towns to live in in that area ?

Good luck .

Will

[BigBilly]

2 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

The only thing that jumps out at me is the wind , more than cold . That wind can really trash a palm , but in a good microclimate ? Also the soil being sand and all could be a factor . I would have a load  good clay driven in and dig out a huge area of sand and fill it and see if palms do better growing in more fertile and soil that can hold moisture better  . Magnesium sulfate and fertilizing and watering , and then maybe a nice Butia , Chamaerops , and others could grow well there ? One of the  mildest parts of NC and has less wind ,  I would assume , is that 8B area near Cedar Island . I don't know if there are many towns to live in in that area ?

Good luck .

Will

Lol i wish i lived out on the outer banks it'd be fun to trail palms but I'm stuck in Statesville, Guess I'll try sabals palmettos

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by BigBilly

[Xerarch]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:25 PM, BigBilly said:

Now that the Outerbanks are officially listed as a Zone 9A, What zone 9 Palms could be grown there? 

I don’t actually see any zone 9 on the outer banks, looks like 8b, and the key doesn’t list anything higher than 8b for NC, I think that’s a bump up from a previous 8a. So I wouldn’t really recommend 9a palms, although I’m sure there are some Washingtonia and Phoenix around that can get damage in the teens and still survive. 

[Xerarch]

30 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

I don’t actually see any zone 9 on the outer banks, looks like 8b, and the key doesn’t list anything higher than 8b for NC, I think that’s a bump up from a previous 8a. So I wouldn’t really recommend 9a palms, although I’m sure there are some Washingtonia and Phoenix around that can get damage in the teens and still survive. 

Well I guess I have to take that back, though not visible in the state map or in the key, if you zoom in on the National map on pc it’s pretty clear that it says 9a for outer banks!

[MarcusH]

31 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

Well I guess I have to take that back, though not visible in the state map or in the key, if you zoom in on the National map on pc it’s pretty clear that it says 9a for outer banks!

I honestly can't understand why everyone gets so excited about the updated map . The data is from 1991 to 2020.  February 2021 and December 2022 aren’t even in the calculation.  We had some hard freezes during the last few years . There's no change in gardening . Everyone needs to focus on the low temperatures in their area not just the average.  I can have 9b winters for many years but then it goes down to 8b . Man,  February 2021 we had a warm 7b winter and I'm in a cold 9a zone ( former warm 8b)  . So much for sticking to the USDA map . 

[Xerarch]

9 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

I honestly can't understand why everyone gets so excited about the updated map . The data is from 1991 to 2020.  February 2021 and December 2022 aren’t even in the calculation.  We had some hard freezes during the last few years . There's no change in gardening . Everyone needs to focus on the low temperatures in their area not just the average.  I can have 9b winters for many years but then it goes down to 8b . Man,  February 2021 we had a warm 7b winter and I'm in a cold 9a zone ( former warm 8b)  . So much for sticking to the USDA map . 

The 30 year average as presented in the USDA zone map is just one of many tools to use for understanding your climate, it's not the full picture or the gospel truth.  It's a data point to put in the mix with everything else you know, I think it's an interesting tool to look at, including the ways that it changes over time.

[palmtreeguy]

The interactive zoomable map is here:

https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/

 

Zone 9a in NC stretches from Cape Lookout along the outer banks up to Corolla, NC which is only 12 miles south of VA.

Edited November 17, 2023 by palmtreeguy

[MarcusH]

56 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

The 30 year average as presented in the USDA zone map is just one of many tools to use for understanding your climate, it's not the full picture or the gospel truth.  It's a data point to put in the mix with everything else you know, I think it's an interesting tool to look at, including the ways that it changes over time.

It is an interesting tool that's for sure and overall we see climate changing to warmer average temperatures . Each to their own but from people's reaction here I get that feeling that the updated map opens a new door to try different palms where winter lows got even colder this decade. I live in San Antonio.  Before the update it was for the most part zone 9a I lived a few miles away from the 9a border so technically a warm 8b .  Around December 20th , 2022 we had lows of 16,21,24,28F.  Then February 2021 the ultimate low was 9°F with temperatures in the teens for days that killed a lot of Washingtonia Robustas , killed All Queens and other 9b palms. Now I'm in zone 9a but with occasional winters of 8b down to 7b every 30 to 50 years (?) . 

[RFun]

12 hours ago, knikfar said:

The updated maps don't really change anything. If something didn't survive in our climates within the last 5 years, its not likely to survive there today. Here in Raleigh, we got bumped up to a solid 8a. But 4 of the last 10 winters have been 7b winters. So the new designation doesn't mean much since plants less hardy than 10f  would have been killed in those four winters. 

The problem is that many plants vary with hardiness.  So you can't make too many assumptions very confidently.  I see plants pull through much colder temps than what they are rated for.  If anything, most people understate the hardiness.  Consider the length of the cold snaps more than the actual temps.  And anyway, it's the same case for basically every location in the U.S.  Zone 9a will see 8b or even 8a winters occasionally/once in a great while (even 7b would be possible).  When you put it all together, it's extremely difficult to make too many assumptions.

Edited November 17, 2023 by RFun

[RFun]

6 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I honestly can't understand why everyone gets so excited about the updated map . The data is from 1991 to 2020.  February 2021 and December 2022 aren’t even in the calculation.  We had some hard freezes during the last few years . There's no change in gardening . Everyone needs to focus on the low temperatures in their area not just the average.  I can have 9b winters for many years but then it goes down to 8b . Man,  February 2021 we had a warm 7b winter and I'm in a cold 9a zone ( former warm 8b)  . So much for sticking to the USDA map . 

Basically, if you're stressed about your plants, you're probably focusing on the low temps and not the average.  If you're looking to grow plants that you will likely enjoy for the majority of your life, you're probably more focused on the average.  As for what happens regarding the temps and whether the plant will survive is anyone's guess.

Edited November 17, 2023 by RFun

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

Basically, if you're stressed about your plants, you're probably focusing on the low temps and not the average.  If you're looking to grow plants that you will likely enjoy for the majority of your life, you're probably more focused on the average.  As for what happens regarding the temps and whether the plant will survive is anyone's guess.

Each to their own I personally like to see my palms growing as large as possible without worrying each winter about new protection methods as the palm grows larger and eventually at one point I have to let nature handle . I already made that mistake twice by planting two Queens in a former 8b zone.  It's not a matter of IF it's a matter of WHEN they die.  I already switched to more cold hardier palms I have a few Filiferas planted . They're perfect for our area.  

Digging out a mature palm can be quite costly that can cost you hundreds of dollars per palm in some cases thousands . 

Few years ago lots of Robustas were killed and a lot of home owners didn't remove them.  Looking at dead palms isn't quite the enjoyment IMO it will also become a hazard one day when one storm knocks them down. 

[BigBilly]

10 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I honestly can't understand why everyone gets so excited about the updated map . The data is from 1991 to 2020.  February 2021 and December 2022 aren’t even in the calculation.  We had some hard freezes during the last few years . There's no change in gardening . Everyone needs to focus on the low temperatures in their area not just the average.  I can have 9b winters for many years but then it goes down to 8b . Man,  February 2021 we had a warm 7b winter and I'm in a cold 9a zone ( former warm 8b)  . So much for sticking to the USDA map . 

I mean yeah that's just part of the average just because there's a risk of a 7B winter every 10 or so years doesn't mean it's not worth trying some other palms even though they may eventually die to the cold or at least that's how I think of it. I just grow them from seed and protect them from the cold winters until I can't anymore.  

[RFun]

23 minutes ago, BigBilly said:

I mean yeah that's just part of the average just because there's a risk of a 7B winter every 10 or so years doesn't mean it's not worth trying some other palms even though they may eventually die to the cold or at least that's how I think of it. I just grow them from seed and protect them from the cold winters until I can't anymore.  

There are definitely palms that require no more than a regular ladder, even when mature.

Edited November 17, 2023 by RFun

[RFun]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Each to their own I personally like to see my palms growing as large as possible without worrying each winter about new protection methods as the palm grows larger and eventually at one point I have to let nature handle . I already made that mistake twice by planting two Queens in a former 8b zone.  It's not a matter of IF it's a matter of WHEN they die.  I already switched to more cold hardier palms I have a few Filiferas planted . They're perfect for our area.  

Digging out a mature palm can be quite costly that can cost you hundreds of dollars per palm in some cases thousands . 

Few years ago lots of Robustas were killed and a lot of home owners didn't remove them.  Looking at dead palms isn't quite the enjoyment IMO it will also become a hazard one day when one storm knocks them down. 

The dead palms could possibly be a hazard.  I would recommend checking for bats or other wildlife before removing them (as well as making sure the palm IS actually dead, which can take some time to figure out).

Edited November 17, 2023 by RFun

[MarcusH]

50 minutes ago, RFun said:

The dead palms could possibly be a hazard.  I would recommend checking for bats or other wildlife before removing them (as well as making sure the palm IS actually dead, which can take some time to figure out).

After almost 3 years I'm positive they're dead lol.

[RFun]

36 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

After almost 3 years I'm positive they're dead lol.

3 years, sure, I'd be checking for wildlife though.

[SeanK]

The zone rating (z9a, z7b, etc) is the -3 sigma number from the average minimum. Say NC's OBs have an average minimum of 32° with a standard deviation of 3F°. The zone equates to (32 - 9)°F so z9a.

If Asheville has the same average minimum but the standard deviation is 8F°, the zone equates to (32 - 24)°F, so z7b.

[WSimpson]

I just looked into the 9A in NC . That inland area of 9A might be the best palm growing area for less hardy palms  in  the state . I think this is the map you were looking for .

Edited November 17, 2023 by Will Simpson

[MarcusH]

24 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

I just looked into the 9A in NC . That inland area of 9A might be the best palm growing area for less hardy palms  in  the state . I think this is the map you were looking for .

I've looked up some data for OB and apparently there are quite a lot of days with temperatures between 6°F and 15°F degrees within the last 40 years. Good luck on growing less cold hardy palms .  

[RedRabbit]

I’ve heard of queens and Washingtonia having some success in VA so might as well give them a try. 
 

Phoenix reclinata perhaps too since nothing kills them despite our best efforts in Florida. 

[MarcusH]

4 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

I’ve heard of queens and Washingtonia having some success in VA so might as well give them a try. 
 

Phoenix reclinata perhaps too since nothing kills them despite our best efforts in Florida. 

Queens are classified as zone 9b but will survive long term in a warm solid 9a . They're usually cold hardy down to 20°F but can handle low temperatures for a short period of time in the mid to upper teens if the cold front is dry but that not even a guarantee.  

People grow Washingtonias in Ontario Canada I know a guy on YT who does that but he also protects them every year. 

The question is what are you going to do once the palm grows to a height where protection is nearly impossible? 

Washingtonia Filifera are classified as 8a/8b palms but can handle colder temperatures for a short time.  

Robustas struggle to survive in the low teens. 

The borderline to succefully grow Queens is jacksonville Florida.  Succefully to me means that the palm dies by age not by a cold snap . Growing a palm and keep it alive for 1 to 20 years isn't really a success.  

Virginia is way too cold to grow Queens unprotected.  

[RFun]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

Queens are classified as zone 9b but will survive long term in a warm solid 9a . They're usually cold hardy down to 20°F but can handle low temperatures for a short period of time in the mid to upper teens if the cold front is dry but that not even a guarantee.  

People grow Washingtonias in Ontario Canada I know a guy on YT who does that but he also protects them every year. 

The question is what are you going to do once the palm grows to a height where protection is nearly impossible? 

Washingtonia Filifera are classified as 8a/8b palms but can handle colder temperatures for a short time.  

Robustas struggle to survive in the low teens. 

The borderline to succefully grow Queens is jacksonville Florida.  Succefully to me means that the palm dies by age not by a cold snap . Growing a palm and keep it alive for 1 to 20 years isn't really a success.  

Virginia is way too cold to grow Queens unprotected.  

Many palms are going to take quite a while to reach the height where a 16 foot step ladder won't do the trick (at least, if you're planting young palms and you are in the colder areas for the variety).  Many will likely require nothing more than maybe a 16 foot step ladder (even when mature for the colder areas for the variety).  It's something to consider, but consider the slow growth rate of many of these palms and where they top out in certain climate areas.  Of course, palms are also going to naturally vary in their height and hardiness on top of this.  And on top of that, it's very hard to make too many assumptions about weather and hardiness as well.  I would just enjoy growing the palms that you choose to.  You are probably not going to have to worry too much about most of this stuff, anyway.  Plant responsibly and with some conscientiousness and things should be fine.

Edited November 18, 2023 by RFun

[PalmsNC]

19 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I've looked up some data for OB and apparently there are quite a lot of days with temperatures between 6°F and 15°F degrees within the last 40 years. Good luck on growing less cold hardy palms .  

Hatteras has a mean minimum of 23 and even during 1981-2010 it was zone 9a . Its all time record low is 6 in jan 1985. Second coldest low is 11 in 1982. Compare  that to San Antonio’s which has gotten colder than that in all three winter months . I’ve been hoggin some Palm photos from y’all from the past year , here is a nice fat CIDP on Hatteras as well as a few other things… also last winter here in Zebulon somehow I had a true date palm from the pits my grandmother tossed actually survive a winter… and we dropped to 10. I don’t know how. Sadly it died in the spring when transplanted , it was only a couple small spears but somehow it lived 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by PalmsNC

[PalmsNC]

Another secret I’ve been hiding from y’all for 2 years. Found these washies on street view growing in chincoteague va. They have been there a while you can go back in time on street view . Impressive . Actually ok second glance they are sabals , haven’t seen it in a while. Still nice . Tho I do think there are some washies in the back. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by PalmsNC

[WSimpson]

Nice Date there on Hatteras . It's obviously been there a while . 

Will

 

[BigBilly]

2 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Hatteras has a mean minimum of 23 and even during 1981-2010 it was zone 9a . Its all time record low is 6 in jan 1985. Second coldest low is 11 in 1982. Compare  that to San Antonio’s which has gotten colder than that in all three winter months . I’ve been hoggin some Palm photos from y’all from the past year , here is a nice fat CIDP on Hatteras as well as a few other things… also last winter here in Zebulon somehow I had a true date palm from the pits my grandmother tossed actually survive a winter… and we dropped to 10. I don’t know how. Sadly it died in the spring when transplanted , it was only a couple small spears but somehow it lived 

 

 

IMG_3409.mov

 

 

 

 

I really feel like dates are more hardy than they're given credit for 

[RFun]

19 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Hatteras has a mean minimum of 23 and even during 1981-2010 it was zone 9a . Its all time record low is 6 in jan 1985. Second coldest low is 11 in 1982. Compare  that to San Antonio’s which has gotten colder than that in all three winter months . I’ve been hoggin some Palm photos from y’all from the past year , here is a nice fat CIDP on Hatteras as well as a few other things… also last winter here in Zebulon somehow I had a true date palm from the pits my grandmother tossed actually survive a winter… and we dropped to 10. I don’t know how. Sadly it died in the spring when transplanted , it was only a couple small spears but somehow it lived 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Consider that Wilmington, NC has seen 0F before in 1989.  Look at what is growing there to get a good gauge of that situation.  I don't get the sense there is intense fear among the palm growers there.

Edited November 19, 2023 by RFun

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, RFun said:

Consider that Wilmington, NC has seen 0F before in 1989.  Look at what is growing there to get a good gauge of that situation.  I don't get the sense there is intense fear among the palm growers there.

Always the best advice.

[PalmsNC]

20 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

Nice Date there on Hatteras . It's obviously been there a while . 

Will

 

Here is is on street view 15 years ago

 

 

[Xerarch]

On 11/18/2023 at 9:02 AM, PalmsNC said:

Another secret I’ve been hiding from y’all for 2 years. Found these washies on street view growing in chincoteague va. They have been there a while you can go back in time on street view . Impressive . Actually ok second glance they are sabals , haven’t seen it in a while. Still nice . Tho I do think there are some washies in the back. 

I think your first guess was better, Washingtonia

[PalmsNC]

6 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

I think your first guess was better, Washingtonia

Wow, even crazier because that’s all the way in chincoteague Va

[RFun]

4 hours ago, PalmsNC said:

Here is is on street view 15 years ago

 

 

The Outer Banks are going to be the best area for Canary Island Date Palms.  But, that certainly doesn't mean they can't be found elsewhere in North Carolina.

[WSimpson]

A more in depth look at 9A in NC . I was wrong about Cedar Island being 9A . Looks like Harker's Island ,  Mashallberg and Gloucester  might be about the best places to plant less hardy varieties of plants .

 

 

Another interesting area of ( 9A goes damn close to Virginia up the Outer Banks . I put a piece of tape where 9A stops . There are some inland areas way up that way too where there are some patches of 9A . The southeast portion of Dare county has a patch of 9A , and a southern portion to the southeast  of where it says Currituck County .

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Will Simpson

[RedRabbit]

On 11/18/2023 at 10:02 AM, PalmsNC said:

Another secret I’ve been hiding from y’all for 2 years. Found these washies on street view growing in chincoteague va. They have been there a while you can go back in time on street view . Impressive . Actually ok second glance they are sabals , haven’t seen it in a while. Still nice . Tho I do think there are some washies in the back. 

It looks like they’ve been in ground since at least 2014.

I’m not clear how this is possible unless they’re getting substantial winter protection. Chincoteague doesn’t have that much going for it in terms of a microclimate.