Distinguish citrus rootstock from scion?

[Rivera]

When I got these two plants a couple years ago, I had heard that citrus trees were grafted trees. I'm afraid I had only the crudest understanding of what that meant.

I kept one in a very large pot and the other in a big box I built out of redwood lumber. They rooted in and grew but did not thrive. Somewhat yellowed curly leaves, a bit of branch dieback. Bracken fern runs wild here. It got into the containers and drank up the water.

As I figured out the surrounding landscape, I decided they deserved a better life (and I wanted some fruit) so I dug a couple large holes and planted them in the ground. Our sandy soil allowed me to water them generously over the summer and they both improved in vigor and appearance.

Out of ignorance, I never paid attention to where the graft union was on either plant, and I don't really know where it is now. 

Tahitian lime (aka Bearss/Persian), grafted onto semi-dwarf rootstock (uncertain what species):

Improved Meyer lemon, also grafted onto unknown semi-dwarf rootstock. You can see the flush of new growth. I moved this one to the ground after the lime and it has just perked up, better late than never:

The graft unions are usually pretty low, right? I guess my concern is that I could have allowed the scions to wither while the plants languished in pots, and the new growth is from the rootstock species.

There are no suckers at the base... i guess I'll figure it out sooner than later based on the fruit, which is starting to grow. 

Help?

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Rivera said:

When I got these two plants a couple years ago, I had heard that citrus trees were grafted trees. I'm afraid I had only the crudest understanding of what that meant.

I kept one in a very large pot and the other in a big box I built out of redwood lumber. They rooted in and grew but did not thrive. Somewhat yellowed curly leaves, a bit of branch dieback. Bracken fern runs wild here. It got into the containers and drank up the water.

As I figured out the surrounding landscape, I decided they deserved a better life (and I wanted some fruit) so I dug a couple large holes and planted them in the ground. Our sandy soil allowed me to water them generously over the summer and they both improved in vigor and appearance.

Out of ignorance, I never paid attention to where the graft union was on either plant, and I don't really know where it is now. 

Tahitian lime (aka Bearss/Persian), grafted onto semi-dwarf rootstock (uncertain what species):

Improved Meyer lemon, also grafted onto unknown semi-dwarf rootstock. You can see the flush of new growth. I moved this one to the ground after the lime and it has just perked up, better late than never:

The graft unions are usually pretty low, right? I guess my concern is that I could have allowed the scions to wither while the plants languished in pots, and the new growth is from the rootstock species.

There are no suckers at the base... i guess I'll figure it out sooner than later based on the fruit, which is starting to grow. 

Help?

Usually,  but i've seen plenty of Citrus where the graft point was pretty high up.  Root stock growth should produce " trifoliate " type growth since that is the predominant variety used for root  stock. Should be extremely spiny, all the way down each branch,  compared to the " desired " variety  also.

Not seeing that in the pictures, so ..cross your fingers,  you might have lucked out and picked up something grown on it's own roots ..Unless the grower supplying the plants you chose from is using something different as their Root stock

With my Landlord's Citrus, it was easy to tell which growth was from the root stock, esp. on the now dead Orange.. Lemon as well ( Root stock suckers that were present / poke their heads out every so often ) are spiny compared to the desired variety.

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Usually,  but i've seen plenty of Citrus where the graft point was pretty high up.  Root stock growth should produce " trifoliate " type growth since that is the predominant variety used for root  stock. Should be extremely spiny, all the way down each branch,  compared to the " desired " variety  also.

Not seeing that in the pictures, so ..cross your fingers,  you might have lucked out and picked up something grown on it's own roots ..Unless the grower supplying the plants you chose from is using something different as their Root stock

With my Landlord's Citrus, it was easy to tell which growth was from the root stock, esp. on the now dead Orange.. Lemon as well ( Root stock suckers that were present / poke their heads out every so often ) are spiny compared to the desired variety.

Just found this:  It's a PDF download, but lists what root stock varieties are used there in the homeland..

https://anrcatalog.ucanr.edu/Details.aspx?itemNo=21477E

[amh]

I cant give you information on the lime, but the Meyer lemon is probably on its own roots. Also the flowers look like Meyer lemon flowers.

[Xenon]

I don't see a graft union on either of your citrus, they look to be grown from cuttings. Limes and lemons from cuttings (on their own roots) are commonly sold, especially at the big box stores. 

[Silas_Sancona]

10 minutes ago, Xenon said:

I don't see a graft union on either of your citrus, they look to be grown from cuttings. Limes and lemons from cuttings (on their own roots) are commonly sold, especially at the big box stores. 

Not necessarily the case out here, and back in CA.. All i've seen, inc at the local big boxes ..and used to stock several times a year here and in CA were grown on some sort of root stock.

[amh]

3 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Not necessarily the case out here, and back in CA.. All i've seen, inc at the local big boxes ..and used to stock several times a year here and in CA were grown on some sort of root stock.

Locally, the pot size usually determines whether a citrus tree is grafted. The 1 or 1^1/2 gallon containers are grown from cuttings and 3 gallon or larger are grafted.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, amh said:

Locally, the pot size usually determines whether a citrus tree is grafted. The 1 or 1^1/2 gallon containers are grown from cuttings and 3 gallon or larger are grafted.

We only sold 3+ gallon stock..  Never see anything smaller offered  in the nurseries ...that i recall anyway.

i'd assumed the same as Xenon regarding Lemon and Lime varieties sold in CA until speaking with people associated w/ the CRFG and CCGA.  Unless it has changed in more recent years, was told pretty much everything offered to the public has to be on root stock.  Again though, that rule could have changed.

[amh]

5 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

We only sold 3+ gallon stock..  Never see anything smaller offered  in the nurseries ...that i recall anyway.

i'd assumed the same as Xenon regarding Lemon and Lime varieties sold in CA until speaking with people associated w/ the CRFG and CCGA.  Unless it has changed in more recent years, was told pretty much everything offered to the public has to be on root stock.  Again though, that rule could have changed.

The lemons, limes and calamondins are frequently sold in small sizes at the bigbox stores and grocery chains here. I don't know what regulations California has for citrus.

[Rivera]

Thanks to all who have shared info and opinions. I got these as 5g plants from the local neighborhood garden center. I think the lemon was grown by Monrovia (San Joaquin Valley). Not sure about the lime, as I don't remember a nursery tag or sticker indicating the grower. I found the old nursery container, but it just had the garden center's tag.

The local garden center employs experienced nursery-people and sources the lion's share of their offerings from reputable California growers like Suncrest, Native Sons, Monrovia in Visalia. So they're probably doing whatever is standard practice in California.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 minute ago, amh said:

The lemons, limes and calamondins are frequently sold in small sizes at the bigbox stores and grocery chains here. I don't know what regulations California has for citrus.

Thankfully very strict.. esp since both Citrus Psyllid and Greening were found out there.. Were very stringent regardless even before the Med Fly fiasco in the early 80s. Ironically, currently new quarantines for Med Flies in a few areas of Los Angeles.  Some other non native fruit Fly issues atm out there also.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/millions-of-sterile-fruit-flies-will-soon-be-dropped-on-los-angeles-180983176/

https://www.ocregister.com/2023/11/13/oriental-fruit-fly-quarantine-declared-in-inland-empire/

https://www.freshfruitportal.com/news/2023/11/08/hass-avocados-removed-as-host-in-oriental-fruit-fly-quarantine/

  Arizona is also very strict, ...from what i was told by the people who sold to the nurseries i worked for here. 

[Silas_Sancona]

50 minutes ago, Rivera said:

Thanks to all who have shared info and opinions. I got these as 5g plants from the local neighborhood garden center. I think the lemon was grown by Monrovia (San Joaquin Valley). Not sure about the lime, as I don't remember a nursery tag or sticker indicating the grower. I found the old nursery container, but it just had the garden center's tag.

The local garden center employs experienced nursery-people and sources the lion's share of their offerings from reputable California growers like Suncrest, Native Sons, Monrovia in Visalia. So they're probably doing whatever is standard practice in California.

Can't remember, but Monrovia may have their own specific " Citrus growing " area in the overall company.  Looking at their site, i don't see a section for Citrus in Native Sons'  " Our Plants " section.. Can't access Suncrest ( Their net security certificate has apparently expired.. I get a warning when i go there anyway )  I see Native Sons is still growing Coprosma though ..🤢 ..and why!,   

At SummerWinds, we bought something like 98% of our Citrus from both Menlo Growers, ( Gilroy ) and Four Winds  ..Can't remember where they're located...   I think both supply the big box stores around the Bay Area as well..

Four Winds used to do growing seminars during our annual Citrus Tasting events at SummerWinds as well.

[Rivera]

10 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Can't remember, but Monrovia may have their own specific " Citrus growing " area in the overall company.  Looking at their site, i don't see a section for Citrus in Native Sons'  " Our Plants " section.. Can't access Suncrest ( Their net security certificate has apparently expired.. I get a warning when i go there anyway )  I see Native Sons is still growing Coprosma though ..🤢 ..and why!,   

At SummerWinds, we bought something like 98% of our Citrus from both Menlo Growers, ( Gilroy ) and Four Winds  ..Can't remember where they're located...   I think both supply the big box stores around the Bay Area as well..

Four Winds used to do growing seminars during our annual Citrus Tasting events at SummerWinds as well.

Yeah, I don't think Native Sons does fruit trees (in the conventional sense), just thinking about the growers the garden center sources from. 

I thought Monrovia grew citrus in central Cal just because they do a lot of growing there, but that was an assumption not based on much. 

And now that you mention it, the Bearss lime came from Menlo growers. I could be mixing up the lemon and lime but I 'm pretty certain that's right.

[Silas_Sancona]

8 minutes ago, Rivera said:

Yeah, I don't think Native Sons does fruit trees (in the conventional sense), just thinking about the growers the garden center sources from. 

I thought Monrovia grew citrus in central Cal just because they do a lot of growing there, but that was an assumption not based on much. 

And now that you mention it, the Bearss lime came from Menlo growers. I could be mixing up the lemon and lime but I 'm pretty certain that's right.

..I'd talk with the rep when he'd drop by SummerWinds and the other nursery i worked at before the 2nd move to FL.. and yeah, ..definitely grow out in the Valley, just can't recall if that included any Citrus they carried under their name, of if that was  grown in S. Cal...

Same person had come to the other nursery i was working at to take a bunch of cuttings of a  dwarf-ish flowering Pomegranate the owner of that nursery had. Wonder whatever happened to them, lol.. Never saw it listed in more recent offerings from them when i'd check in, just to see what new stuff they might be pursuing. 

Got a Manfreda i still have pieces of from him when he'd brought some " new stuff " they were promoting at that time.