Christmas Palms in Zone 9A

[Seabass]

Is it possible to reliably grow Christmas palms in zone 9A? Possibly create a microclimate for it.

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Seabass said:

Is it possible to reliably grow Christmas palms in zone 9A? Possibly create a microclimate for it.

Outdoors?  Unfortunately ..no..  Adonidia  are among some of the tenderest of tender palms..

[RedRabbit]

Definitely not.

[Merlyn]

@Seabass unfortunately, nope.  They are a tough grow in a 9B climate, mine died soon after a single cold front at about 28F.  In the Orlando area there are basically none of them on the North or Northwest side of the metro area (colder 9B, some areas borderline 9A) but hundreds of them survive longterm on the South/Southeast/East side (warm 9B). They could be grown in a pot on a patio successfully, just take them inside when temperatures are supposed to go under freezing.  Depending on your house layout that might be easy...or ridiculously difficult. 

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

4 hours ago, Seabass said:

Is it possible to reliably grow Christmas palms in zone 9A? Possibly create a microclimate for it.

Absolutely in a pot haha I'm 9a and have been keeping an Adonidia triple alive for a couple years now. Like @Merlyn said just bri

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

Bring them inside when they will get below 40° and get them under a grow light till it warms up again. All of January I over winter all my Uber tropicals in my garage till I can afford a proper greenhouse 😃

T J 

[Seabass]

Oh alright. Are there any other tropical palms that I can push to the limit and reliably grow them in-ground in Zone 9A? 

[ruskinPalms]

If you are in a really warm 9A area, Ravenea rivularis is a cheap, easy to find palm that I think looks very tropical and is self cleaning as a bonus 😀

[Seabass]

I’m guessing that’s the only one you could probably reliably grow here. I was in Puerto Rico and I saw some very nice palms there. Unfortunately, they are all tropical so it would be hard to get any type up and running to a mature age. It’s a shame you can’t grow them here as they are very nice. For me. it’s always the trooical palms that look the nicest but can’t grow back home.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Seabass

[NC_Palms]

3 hours ago, Seabass said:

Oh alright. Are there any other tropical palms that I can push to the limit and reliably grow them in-ground in Zone 9A? 

Bizzies and pygmy dates are worth a try imo. I know for a fact both are growing in some developments in 9a SC, but definitely not 100% reliable without some protection imo

[Merlyn]

@Seabass there are some tropical-looking palms that should survive in 9A, some even without protection.  Arenga Engleri is one of the hardiest big pinnate palms, Bismarckia (as NC_Palms suggested) are very hardy if you get the silver form.  Livistona Chinensis  and many Sabals (Causiarum, Uresana and others) are hardy to the low 20s.  Some smaller ones are great in shady areas, like Lytocaryum Hoehnei, Rhapis Excelsa (Lady Palm) and a couple of other Rhapis too.  Cyphophoenix Elegans and Nucele are supposed to be hardy to 25F and might survive in a protected microclimate.  I'm trying both of those here, in a borderline 9B/9A spot.  Chuniophoenix Hainanensis and Nana are hardy small tropical fan palms, supposed to be hardy to 24-26F with no damage.  Then there are the known hardy ones like Butia, Chamaerops, some Brahea (like Nitida), Allagoptera Arenaria, Acoelorrhaphe Wrightii Cerifera (Everglades palm), Chamaedorea Radicalis, etc. 

One way to look through the palms is to search through Palmpedia.  For example, here's a link to one of my favorites, Arenga Engleri: https://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Arenga_engleri

A big issue for survivability is how often you see nights in the low 20s.  At my place I can get away with a few zone 10 palms because I only see 1 or 2 really cold nights per year.  So even if a palm gets defoliated one night in January, it has a decent chance of bouncing back in February when temps get back up into the 70s.  If you get a LOT of nights in the mid 20s then some borderline palms won't have a chance.

[Palmfarmer]

12 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

If you are in a really warm 9A area, Ravenea rivularis is a cheap, easy to find palm that I think looks very tropical and is self cleaning as a bonus 😀

I can highly recommend Majesties as well. Kentias for tropical looks in subtropical climates are very tropic looking as well. 

Would Christmas lights and frost cloth make the Christmas palm have a chance in his climate? 

 

[RichardHemsley]

Another vote for Ravenna rivularis. I am in  9b zone and it's the fastest growing palm I own.

I dont risk my Adondia outside in the winter. Is in a pot and happy in the house during the chilly months 

[Silas_Sancona]

56 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

I can highly recommend Majesties as well. Kentias for tropical looks in subtropical climates are very tropic looking as well. 

Would Christmas lights and frost cloth make the Christmas palm have a chance in his climate? 

 

No ...too tender esp in such a zone, even if provided protection outdoors.. Even in FL, they can croak after relatively minor frost / cold events that would leave ( left, actually ) a majority of somewhat tender, but far tougher than Adonidia  palms fairly un-touched ...or at least alive after that cold event.  As mentioned before ( likely a few times over the years, lol ) ..i lost count of all the Adonidias i had to cut down / wrangle out of planting beds after the 09 - 10 cold event in FL.. Even right next to the beach  ..and that was nothing special in terms of what Texas can see  cold-wise.

Probably too cold for Majesties, ( Surprise me, please, lol. ) ..though one could  protect a small one for a few years at least.. Highly doubt Howea would last long there ..Too hot in summer. 

Pygmys are small enough that they could be protected -if need be- for ..quite some time ..so definitely trial - worthy ..imo..   There are also a couple Chamaedorea  ..microspadix, and radicalis.. that could work. A few other Chamaedorea sps as well that could be trialed ..but knowing they may not last long term.  Shorter overall, but, do add a tropical touch in cooler areas, esp in shade..

Keep in mind of the location.. Aside from the typical lows San Antonio can see, they also can experience extreme arctic blasts.. Remember 2021? (  which hopefully is just a one off.  )  While rare ..and something that shouldn't keep anyone there from pushing their zone a little,  forget really extremely tender things ..even if 18 out of 20 winters are average or above average.

Since i didn't see them mentioned, Queens ..Pindo,  and a cross between Queens and Pindo called a Mule palm would be the safest to try and would look reasonably tropical.. 

..Tough stuff  Merlyn mentioned that can take / recover fairly well after some cold as well.

@Seabass Would look through the extensive Texas - based threads over in the " Cold Hardy " part of the forum for ideas / extensive thoughts from what occurred in 2021.  Honestly, for Texas, areas down near South Padre / Brownsville seem to be the best areas for growing more tender palms ..based on years of observations shared by everyone there.

Aside from @OC2Texaspalmlvr very curious, why is there no input from the Texas crew in this thread???? IE:   @Fusca  @Xenon  ..etc....

[ChrisA]

I wouldn't count on any of the crownshaft palms surviving a normal San Antonio winter, and definitely not an outlier winter.  Before the big freeze in '21 there were a few Bismarcks around as well as numerous Queen's and Mexican fan palms.   Maybe 30-40% of the Mexican Fan palms survived that winter, and some of those overcame last December's freeze of 16F. All the other tropicals were pretty much annihilated.  There is a good display of palms at the Oblate School of Theology.

 

The palms that are known to do well in San Antonio with zero or minimal protection are:

W. filifera

W. filibusta

W. robusta - most winters. Ice ages will knock them out of back.

P. canariensis

P. dactylifera

Butia sp.

Brahea armata

Brahea (other species possibly/ edulis, clara?)

S. minor

S. palmetto

S. mexicana - the most hardy trunking palm here

S. uresana

Mule Palm

C. humilis

T. wagnerianus

T. forunei

L. chinensis - most winters

A. wrightii - most winters

 

Palms that are less reliable but might survive several years:

Queen Palm

S. causarium - large one was killed at the SA Botanical Garden in 2021.

R. rivularis 

R. exelsa

 

This is not an exhaustive list, but just the palms you will see around. I'm sure other TX members will have some input as to what to try.

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Seabass]

I had two mule palms. I planted them in summer of 2022. One made it out fine and is growing just fine. The other one didn’t make it, not sure when it died in winter but I think it died around very early 2023. We had two ice days in January. You are right about San Antonio. I do wish our winters weren’t as cold.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Seabass

[Seabass]

23 minutes ago, ChrisA said:

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Seabass

[ChrisA]

I'm with you there. It's incredible with how blazing hot it is between April and October that it ever gets cooler/cold, then wollop! I don't think the climate change is going to make enough of a difference either given that there is nothing to stop the cold air from roaring down the plains.  What we need is a big mountain range running east to west to our north, maybe linking the southern Appalachians to the NM Rocky Mountains.  That would make us a 10A easily! LOL

[Palmfarmer]

2 hours ago, RichardHemsley said:

Another vote for Ravenna rivularis. I am in  9b zone and it's the fastest growing palm I own.

I dont risk my Adondia outside in the winter. Is in a pot and happy in the house during the chilly months 

Interesting, mine is slow as molasses. What is your secret? 

The 2 are very slow even in the rainseason

I have considered running a slow drip all day to see if anything changes. You think that could promote root rot, mine is planted in clay

Edited November 23, 2023 by Palmfarmer

[Xenon]

If you really must have a crownshafted "tropical" palm, foxtail palm is probably the best choice imo. Cheap, easily replaceable and stays at a reasonable height for a while. You would really only need to protect it for the <5 or so days below 30F in a typical San Antonio winter.  Archontophoenix cunninghamia is another good one but it rockets upward once it starts trunking.  Foxtails and kings have survived out in the open in my area for many years in the past, my area is slightly warmer than most of San Antonio (about 2-3F warmer on a typical night) and colder than urban/southeast Houston (about 2-5F colder on a typical night).  I'm formerly "9a" and now just inside "9b". 

I planted these in summer of 2021 and protect <5 nights a year. Just basic covering for the 21-22 winter (26F) and covering + xmas lights for the 22-23 winter (15F). I'm hoping we return to a pattern of statistically average to mild winters for a while where I wouldn't need to protect at all aside from the existing tree canopy and windbreak. 

The browning is from this past summer (the hottest summer in recorded history) and not cold damage. 

Euterpe edulis, Lanonia dasyantha, Chuniophoenix nana (pic taken today)

 

Cyphophoenix elegans (today)

 

Chambeyronia bit the dust from the heat this summer and gap in canopy (old pic from spring, RIP)

 

 

[Seabass]

59 minutes ago, ChrisA said:

I'm with you there. It's incredible with how blazing hot it is between April and October that it ever gets cooler/cold, then wollop! I don't think the climate change is going to make enough of a difference either given that there is nothing to stop the cold air from roaring down the plains.  What we need is a big mountain range running east to west to our north, maybe linking the southern Appalachians to the NM Rocky Mountains.  That would make us a 10A easily! LOL

If there was a mountain range do you think we could grow coconut palms lol? Just like South Florida because of the Appalachian mountains. Imagine seeing San Antonio with tropical vegetation LOL!

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Aside from @OC2Texaspalmlvr very curious, why is there no input from the Texas crew in this thread???? IE:   @Fusca  @Xenon  ..etc..

Just saw this thread. 

1 hour ago, Seabass said:

 

Welcome to Palmtalk Sebastian!  I lived in far west San Antonio for 5 years before moving about 250 miles south last year.  What I can add to what's already been stated is that you might end up 5 to 7°F colder during the extreme cold events if you're in northwest Bexar County.  Mule palms (and other cocoid hybrids) should be fine - I had one out of two mules survive 9°F unprotected.  Acrocomia totai (and possibly aculeata) are other options.  I also grew Hyphaene coriacea and Copernicia alba.  Both alba and prunifera should survive into the teens as established palms.  Butia odorata are bulletproof as far as the weather but can really struggle in alkaline soil.  If you choose to grow Trachycarpus I recommend giving it afternoon shade.  Majesties can be grown if you're willing to water them daily in summer and protect them on occasion in winter.

[ChrisA]

9 minutes ago, Seabass said:

If there was a mountain range do you think we could grow coconut palms lol? Just like South Florida because of the Appalachian mountains. Imagine seeing San Antonio with tropical vegetation LOL!

Yes, I do think we'd be able to grow Coconuts if we had that mountain range! Just watch those blue northers as they head south. They can get surprisingly far! In fact weather records show Tampico, Mexico (south down the gulf coast halfway to Veracruz from the US/Mexico border has seen snow fall!   While if you look inland and further south Mexico City,  at over 7000ft in elevation, has a record low of only down to 24F with records going back to 1877! 

[fr8train]

Mule palms look very tropical, and 2 of the 3 (iirc) at Oblate School of Theology survived palmageddon with zero protection. The ones at the Palm Buddha made it too, though I don't know how much they protected them. They have a lot of very large ones though. I've also seen a fairly large one growing in Seguin, which is a little east of here. 

[RichardHemsley]

14 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Interesting, mine is slow as molasses. What is your secret? 

The 2 are very slow even in the rainseason

I have considered running a slow drip all day to see if anything changes. You think that could promote root rot, mine is planted in clay

No secret really. Its grown in semi shade and gets a really good soaking every day.

[ChrisA]

There are some new Mule Palms that were planted along the drive to the entrance of the Sunken Gardens near the Japanese Tea House.  We will need to watch these to see how they do! Too bad mules aren't more readily available.  Here is a photo of them from a month or so ago.

 

[_nevi]

On 11/23/2023 at 1:44 PM, ChrisA said:

Yes, I do think we'd be able to grow Coconuts if we had that mountain range! Just watch those blue northers as they head south. They can get surprisingly far! In fact weather records show Tampico, Mexico (south down the gulf coast halfway to Veracruz from the US/Mexico border has seen snow fall!   While if you look inland and further south Mexico City,  at over 7000ft in elevation, has a record low of only down to 24F with records going back to 1877! 

I'll do you one better — if the data for Hermosillo, Mexico is correct, then that is pretty much a tropical climate on the Sea of Cortez, right on the latitude of San Antonio and Houston.

However, any such mountains would need to be tall enough — if they are too short, then not only might there not be sufficient protection, but there might even be enhancement of heat waves via compressional warming.

[Silas_Sancona]

12 minutes ago, _nevi said:

I'll do you one better — if the data for Hermosillo, Mexico is correct, then that is pretty much a tropical climate on the Sea of Cortez, right on the latitude of San Antonio and Houston.

However, any such mountains would need to be tall enough — if they are too short, then not only might there not be sufficient protection, but there might even be enhancement of heat waves via compressional warming.

Close... but the border towns just south of the Sonora / Sinaloa line would get you closer to a more reliably " tropical " climate  from a rainfall perspective at least. 

To keep cold air from ever ..or rarely.. reaching Central and S. TX, you'd have to have a high ..and wide.. Plateau,  similar to the one in Mexico, to keep old air rolling south out of Canada from getting over it.  

A skinny mountain range whose spine tops out at 10-15K, running west to east, from say Casper to St. Louis probably wouldn't work ..not as well at least.  It might deflect at least some cold air to the southeast of it, rather than over it though.

..Would help too If the land to the north and east of such a Plateau is low in elevation so cold air has a harder time ascending that side of it. Otherwise it could act like a step instead of a wall and cold air would roll over it easier.

[_nevi]

@Silas_Sancona 

Just curious, what benefits do you think that the plateau allows versus "just the solid, skinny fortress?" I know that the 10k mark is pretty much the "700mb level" on weather model maps.  I would think that any cold air would "compress and warm" even if it got over the crests. If nothing else, they'd definitely be tall enough to stop "shallow arctic air" — that would save Texas from winter "overruning" that features cold rain (or wintry ice, sleet, snow events).

But much shorter mountains (like, 3K ish) would be bad during summer, as compressional warming could enhance heatwaves and droughts that play their own role in diminishing @ChrisA's ideal.

On the other hand, a super tall fortress (Himalayas level even) would really affect the upper level circulation: troughs and ridges at 500mb (~18000ft) ... perhaps even actual 200mb jetstream (~39000ft is average, but it can range as low as ~35000ft). It's conterintuitive, but somehow I think that would actually prevent summer heat/drought in Texas more than the very short 3k mountain scenario.

Of course, latititudinal placement and such are also important factors as well to consider. Definitely would be interesting to simulate all of this somehow — I've read research papers wherein the effects of geographic alterations where modelled, which leads me to wonder what tools were used.

 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, _nevi said:

@Silas_Sancona 

Just curious, what benefits do you think that the plateau allows versus "just the solid, skinny fortress?" I know that the 10k mark is pretty much the "700mb level" on weather model maps.  I would think that any cold air would "compress and warm" even if it got over the crests. If nothing else, they'd definitely be tall enough to stop "shallow arctic air" — that would save Texas from winter "overruning" that features cold rain (or wintry ice, sleet, snow events).

But much shorter mountains (like, 3K ish) would be bad during summer, as compressional warming could enhance heatwaves and droughts that play their own role in diminishing @ChrisA's ideal.

On the other hand, a super tall fortress (Himalayas level even) would really affect the upper level circulation: troughs and ridges at 500mb (~18000ft) ... perhaps even actual 200mb jetstream (~39000ft is average, but it can range as low as ~35000ft). It's conterintuitive, but somehow I think that would actually prevent summer heat/drought in Texas more than the very short 3k mountain scenario.

Of course, latititudinal placement and such are also important factors as well to consider. Definitely would be interesting to simulate all of this somehow — I've read research papers wherein the effects of geographic alterations where modelled, which leads me to wonder what tools were used.

 

Here's a VERY crude, general look at my hypothesis..

Scenario #1:



While yes, a " skinnier " mountain range stretched from ..Again using Casper WY. to N. Central KY. orientation.. would likely block shallow-er cold intrusions pretty well, you could end up w/ a situation where cold air tries to make a run west / southwest at TX via " back door " fronts ( the white cold front i drew ) Esp. if the Appalachian  Mountains are still there to block cold air trying to drain off the continent to the east.

For really deep cold outbreaks, ..it might moderate that cold a bit as it heads south, but, it may not really " stop " it ...Think of that single mountain range like someone building a 10ft tall block wall  down the center of a flat, 5 acre piece of land. Yellow = areas of land above 4.5K ft. Red = areas above 7K ft.




Scenario #2:



Mexican Plateau is several hundred miles wide, and over 1K miles long, ..and oriented in a manner that a majority of cold air bumping into it will want to slide south / southeast along it's eastern edge, rather than try and spill up and over it. Some obviously does at times though.

If laid out to a crudely similar scale across the central U.S. ( Bye Nebraska, lol ) it would provide a much larger barrier for cold air to cross, compared to a skinnier mountain range. Majority of cold air will choose to flow southeast along it's eastern edge..  Some might still get over it, but, with more land area at / above 7kft ( = Red line ) it would behave in a similar fashion that the real deal does..  Colder air that does get over it would moderate ( Again, IMO, )  as it descends the west /southwestern side..

If there were numerous areas on that Plateau that exceeded 12K ft along it's length ..possible very little cold air would be able to overcome it ..i think, lol.  Would likely be quite warm south of it ( though latitude might temper that a bit compared to say India )

This is assuming all the land to the north / east of such a Plateau is lower than 4Kft

Would completely block shallow-er cold air intrusions ..IMO.

Agree completely that anything that doesn't exceed 3-4K ft in height ain't gonna do anything,  for anyone, lol..


Depending how high the Plateau area reached / it's total width, the summer end of the 2nd layout could actually enhance the Subtropical high that forms over the 4 corners / Central Plains ( maybe the High straddles it )  and draw more moisture north / northwest from the Gulf, thus enhancing rainfall in TX ..and possibly all the way west to CA. 

Again, just random musings on this idea.....   Topic really should be tossed into the WX section though.


Agree that it would be fun to try and tinker w/ various model " what if " simulations involving such inclusion of a land mass laid out across the plains ...or any other re-arranging of the mountain ranges / land mass configurations in N. and Central America.

I'd like to see a what adding a Baja like Peninsula / shallow depth ocean area between it and the real coast of CA and Baja, that starts at Fort Arena, and extends to roughly the same latitude as Puerto Vallarta would do for CA.

[_nevi]

@Silas_Sancona

My bad. I actually just realized that I misread your initial post, regarding the length of the hypothetical range — I didn't see the part where you "terminated" it at St. Louis, I had in mind a continuation to the East Coast/Appalachians when I made my post.

The images you posted aren't quite loading on my phone at the moment — when I get back to desktop, I'll read through what you posted regarding the scenarios.

[_nevi]

On 11/23/2023 at 11:28 PM, fr8train said:

Mule palms look very tropical, and 2 of the 3 (iirc) at Oblate School of Theology survived palmageddon with zero protection. The ones at the Palm Buddha made it too, though I don't know how much they protected them. They have a lot of very large ones though. I've also seen a fairly large one growing in Seguin, which is a little east of here. 

I actually think the Mule palms look better than queen palms when both are younger/shorter specimen. However, queens look more graceful when older/taller (although, to be fair, I have not seen much in the way of images regarding fully grown mule palms).

[Scott W]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:42 AM, ChrisA said:

Too bad mules aren't more readily available. 

If one is willing to watch them grow, I have plenty of one yearish old mule seedlings available.

[_nevi]

On 11/30/2023 at 10:01 PM, Silas_Sancona said:

Here's a VERY crude, general look at my hypothesis..

So, looking over the post again, those are interesting scenarios that you've brought up: definitely clear that you've put in quite some good throught to it all.

I wonder about a scenario similar to the first with skinny mountains ... but said mountains were Himalayas heights and extended all the way to the Atlantic Coast (or, all the way to the West Virginia/whereever the western sides of the Apps align).

I also wonder what would happen if we had a mountain range with heights equal to "Olympus Mons" on Mars... 🥰

[Silas_Sancona]

4 minutes ago, _nevi said:

I also wonder what would happen if we had a mountain range with heights equal to "Olympus Mons" on Mars...

That is an interesting thought i've also pondered a few times..  How would something that ginormous effect global weather patterns..

[_nevi]

@ChrisA 

Isn't p. dactylifera similar to w.robusta regarding cold hardiness? I also believe that, for sabals, there is a cross of palmetto and causiarum (megatron) that should survive well. Also surprised to see that the "Everglades palm" is considered hardy most winters for San Antonio.

Edited December 5, 2023 by _nevi

[Bkue]

I am 9b borderline 10a with 3 good sized and monster for the area. They got whacked the last couple years close to the house. They all drop years damage just in time to take another round. I’ll lose the last of last years damage in the next 2-3 weeks. Just in time to start over.
 

An exceptional decade cold will certainly kill them.