Growing palms in San Antonio, TX

[MarcusH]

I was wondering what lessons were learned after the big freeze back in February 2021. I see many businesses replanting Washingtonia Robustas instead of Filiferas but I also see a large number of Sabal Mexicana/ Palmetto being planted as well. 

So what kind of palm trees would you like to see more in and around San Antonio?  Is there a way we can get them planted more frequently along highways and other public roads ? Maybe talk to city department that's in charge of landscaping?  Your thoughts please . 

[kinzyjr]

The understory palms like Sabal minor, Sabal etonia, Serenoa repens, and Rhapidophyllum hystrix would be good additions.  Chamaerops humilis is probably perfect since San Antonio is more or less in a transition area from the humid southeast climate to the western arid climate.  Here, we were lucky to have several people in the right positions working for the city to get some really neat stuff planted.  Reaching out to people who do site planning or are in charge of municipal parks and gardens is usually a good start.

[Dwarf Fan]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

The understory palms like Sabal minor, Sabal etonia, Serenoa repens, and Rhapidophyllum hystrix would be good additions.  Chamaerops humilis is probably perfect since San Antonio is more or less in a transition area from the humid southeast climate to the western arid climate.  Here, we were lucky to have several people in the right positions working for the city to get some really neat stuff planted.  Reaching out to people who do site planning or are in charge of municipal parks and gardens is usually a good start.

Sabal minor and Chamaerops humilis are extremely common in Texas nurseries.

Serenoa repens and Rhapidophyllum hystrix are available, but not common in Texas.

Sabal etonia Is virtually non-existant at Texas nurseries.

Which is a shame because all the above species are growing great in my backyard. 

[fr8train]

There's a guy not far from here that lined his driveway with robustas and last winter more than half of them died. Now he replaced them with more. I was tempted to put an anonymous letter with more information about what palms can make it here in his mailbox, but he replaced them too quickly. Hopefully these do better. Filifera can definitely  make it, I've seen a few fat trunked ones and they all bounce back after winter. 

Most people don't even plant palms here, sadly. The trunking Sabals do great, even through the worst freezes. I'd love to see those everywhere here, palmetto, mexicana, and uresana especially. It'd be awesome to see the very silver form from John Fairey propagated planted all over the place down here.

CIDP completely defoliate though these rough winters, but they seem to somehow miraculously come back.

I'd like to see more people try Butias, I've seen a few around and they seem to to do ok. I'm not aware of anyone growing Jubaea, that could be another pinnate palm worth trying. 

Brahea armata is a beautiful palm that should be bulletproof here too, but I haven't seen any for sale. They're all over nurseries in Las Vegas on the other hand, and they're not even that expensive, especially compared to palm prices here. Maybe other Braheas could make it too, I wonder if super silver could make it?

Trithrinax  is another genus that could be tried, if not for the sake of cold hardy palm diversity. I personally love the way campestris look. Acanthocoma, brasiliensis, and schizophylla could be worth a shot too. 

Trachycarpus is another one. Fortunei is common, but wagnerianus and princeps should do good here. There are some fortunei growing around here, and they look good despite the brutal Texas sun. 

Mule palms too, especially in San Antonio itself, which is a little warmer than the hills. 

It's a real shame Texas Cold Hardy Palms went under after that freeze. They were trying to propagate all of the good stuff that could make it down here, unfortunately that nursery was just a little too far north in Texas. 

 

[fr8train]

Some of the palms I mentioned, just collected from the internet for your viewing pleasure

Trithrinax campestris

Brahea super silver

Brahea armata

Trithrinax schizophylla 

Sabal uresana silver form

Trachycarpus princeps

Trachycarpus wagnerianus

[fr8train]

Chamaerops humilis var. argentea could be another bulletproof palm suitable for this climate. 

Palmetto ' Lisa' too, for diversity. 

[Tom in Tucson]

In addition to Trithrinax campestris, Sabal uresana, Chamaerops humilis, Washingtonia filifera, and Brahea armata, I think these should be hardy and drought tolerant there as well:

Acrocomia totai

Bismarckia nobilis

Brahea clara

Butia odorata (or mutt) x Jubaea chilensis (BxJ) or JxB

Copernicia alba

Livistona alfredii

Ravenea xerophila

Hi 66°, Lo 48° - morning rain, 1/4"

[MarcusH]

You came up with great ideas guys . I think we have so much potential to grow some great palms. 

One way to grow more palms are to grab seeds and spread them all over ,away from landscapers . 

I would also like to contact city planers and talk about planting the right palm species at more places. If you ever drove on Broadway and Austin hwy you can see large numbers of Filiferas planted along these roads. That's what I like to see at a lot more main roads . 

Filiferas or Filibustas are absolutely bulletproof and can be planted all over SA with a small budget.  Those are good for fast results because of growth rate. 

Sabals are costlier and slow grower but require very little maintenance.  Would great along freeways. 

Robustas are fine unless we get another big freeze like few years ago . I wouldn't recommend it.  I have one myself and protected it last year.  If it ever dies I'm going to replace it with a Filifera . 

 

[RFun]

28 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

You came up with great ideas guys . I think we have so much potential to grow some great palms. 

One way to grow more palms are to grab seeds and spread them all over ,away from landscapers . 

I would also like to contact city planers and talk about planting the right palm species at more places. If you ever drove on Broadway and Austin hwy you can see large numbers of Filiferas planted along these roads. That's what I like to see at a lot more main roads . 

Filiferas or Filibustas are absolutely bulletproof and can be planted all over SA with a small budget.  Those are good for fast results because of growth rate. 

Sabals are costlier and slow grower but require very little maintenance.  Would great along freeways. 

Robustas are fine unless we get another big freeze like few years ago . I wouldn't recommend it.  I have one myself and protected it last year.  If it ever dies I'm going to replace it with a Filifera . 

 

If you do grow Robustas in the San Antonio area, you might want to source those from the El Paso area.  There were Robustas that are reported as having survived 1 degree and a couple of other cold days during the 2021 event.

[ChrisA]

I'm amazed that there are several robustas that did survive the 2021 freeze as well as last December's big freeze.  I know most perished, but it is very heartening to see there are several great examples that remain.  I love filifera and filibusta, but there is just something about robusta.  I planted two in my back yard near the pool, just 1-gallon size. They grew like crazy since being planted in May and are putting on lots of height. They're being spoiled with water and nutrients in the hopes that they'll grow fast and healthy. I'm a little concerned how this winter will go, hoping we get a 9B or better to make up for the last few years... If they fail, I've still got filifera that are coming up from the parent plants that are over 50 years old and gorgeous.  Those filifera were strap leafs that sprouted before the big freeze in '21 and froze to the ground and came back. Now, just two years later they look like this:

The Robustas:

 

 

 

One Parent Filifera with the young'un from earlier this summer:

[MarcusH]

9 hours ago, RFun said:

If you do grow Robustas in the San Antonio area, you might want to source those from the El Paso area.  There were Robustas that are reported as having survived 1 degree and a couple of other cold days during the 2021 event.

You're right . Also there are a lot of Robustas in Las Cruces,  NM which is basically around the corner . They seem to handle the cold just fine. 

[MarcusH]

6 hours ago, ChrisA said:

I'm amazed that there are several robustas that did survive the 2021 freeze as well as last December's big freeze.  I know most perished, but it is very heartening to see there are several great examples that remain.  I love filifera and filibusta, but there is just something about robusta.  I planted two in my back yard near the pool, just 1-gallon size. They grew like crazy since being planted in May and are putting on lots of height. They're being spoiled with water and nutrients in the hopes that they'll grow fast and healthy. I'm a little concerned how this winter will go, hoping we get a 9B or better to make up for the last few years... If they fail, I've still got filifera that are coming up from the parent plants that are over 50 years old and gorgeous.  Those filifera were strap leafs that sprouted before the big freeze in '21 and froze to the ground and came back. Now, just two years later they look like this:

The Robustas:

 

 

 

One Parent Filifera with the young'un from earlier this summer:

What a beautiful yard Chris. Looks very inviting.  I love Robustas as well and I think if we don't get another 2021 freeze in the next 30 to 50 years we might be out of the woods.  They surivived last year's storm I didn't see any mature Robustas not making it just a few new planted ones didn't make it 

[ChrisA]

Thank you Marcus! I hope we get a mild winter.  I don't mind the cool and wet weather, but hoping it does not go below 25.

Here are some other photos of Palms I've taken around San Antonio over the last few years, including one I forgot to mention that seems unstoppable here, Nannorrhops ritchiana! One of the large ones flowered at the Botanical Garden this year.  Very pretty!

Sorry if this post is too long. I've been working on it for a while! 

 

Mules at Japanese Sunken Gardens:

 

Sabal minor at the Botanical Garden's East Texas region:

 

W. filibusta, high percentage W. robusta, and Brahea armata along the River Walk, downtown, SATX

 

Phoenix reclinata:

 

Not exactly sure what palm this one is, there is another nearby it as well. Livistona sp/ Brahea sp? 

 

Here is a closeup of the crown, there are no spines:

 

Here is the other one (think they're the same) with seeds:

 

R. hystrix:

 

P. canariensis in the King William neighborhood following this past winter:

 

The same palm back in 2018:

 

Livistona sp., Trachycarpus fortunei, and Bismarkia nobilis, Riverwalk 2018:

 

More Livistona, not sure if this is chinensis?

S. mexicana:

 

W. robustas:

 

P. dactylifera:

 

Fried palms at Botanical Garden in early February of this year. The one on left is L. chinensis (behind it is S. mexicana), and an unkown sabal to the right. Both palms have recovered fully this summer. 

 

L. chinensis, this palm was removed, not sure if it tried to recover or the garden just lost patience. There used to be a nice stand of Everglades palms to the right which were also removed even though they were recovering from 2021.

 

Acoelorrhaphe wrightii?:

 

Serenoa repens:

 

Nannorhops ritchiana:

 

W. filifera, very old:

 

California fan palm in ice storm, 3 Feb 2022:

 

Brahea armata:

 

W. robustas:

 

W. robusta and filifera at Botanical Garden 2022:

 

W. filifera, and robusta, one month prior to freeze 2021:

Palms along riverwalk, January 2021. Bismarck Palm, Pygmy Date Palm, W. filibusta and W. robusta groups:

 

W. robustas pre 2021 freeze (2 Feb 2021):

 

S. causarium before and after 2021. It tried to comeback but failed.

 

 

Palm grouping at San Antonio Botanical Garden, pre freeze. Tall Palms L-R, Sabal mexicana x 2, Sabal causarium. Other palms are Sabal mexicanas, Livistona chinensis x 2, A. wrightii, and N. ritchiana:

 

Could this have been a ribbon palm (Livistona decipiens)?:

W. filifera w/ bougainvillea:

Sabal palmetto:

Phoenix dactylifera, Chamaerops humilis, Sabal mexicana:

 

Syagrus romanzoffiana:

Sabal mexicana at Mission Concepcion:

The former Jubaea:

Livistona sp?:

And for the finale (non-palm) but representative of the pre-freeze lovely tropical-ness. Hong Kong Orchid tree in full flower January 2021:

[fr8train]

Amazing! It's too bad some of those are gone now. 

[MarcusH]

We had so many nice exotic palm trees unfortunately some of them didn't make it through the big freeze. 

The Mules at the Japanese sunken garden do they still exist ? 

Great pictures thank you for sharing.  I have to see if I have the time to take some pictures downtown this weekend.  We still have some really great palms that you don't see everywhere.  

[ChrisA]

Good Morning Marcus,

 

Yes the Sunken Garden palms still exist. I think they were just planted this year.  The photo is from this past October or early November. You should check them out!

[Chester B]

There are a few more palms that I would think would do well in SA.

Livistona nitida - it has done well for me in my wet winters

Sabal rosei - Hardier than what I've read online and it grows in drier areas than most Sabals so can handle more drought.

Phoenix theophrastii - often discussed here in conversations as to which Phoenix species is the most cold hardy

The ultra hardy slow to trunk sabals like "Birmingham", "Louisiana" and the native  S "Brazoriensis"

 

Really the Sabals and the Braheas are what I think will offer you the most variety as both have many species to choose from.

[UK_Palms]

@Chester B Last winter saw off my Phoenix Theophrasti, whereas my smaller Canariensis came back after a total defoliation. It does seem like CIDP can recover from colder temps than Theo’s, and they will also put out new growth much quicker following a freeze, further increasing the chances of recovery.

I have heard of quite a few instances now where Theo’s were killed stone dead from a freeze, whereas CIDP’s came back again for people. The perception that they are hardier than CIDP’s probably isn’t true. I can’t say for sure though, but there is mounting evidence for this nowadays.

Edited November 27, 2023 by UK_Palms

[Chester B]

@UK_Palms good to know.  The winters out in San Antonio are definitely drier and sunnier than in the UK so I think this should help.  If I'm not mistaken other Phoenix palms (other than CIDP) survived out there in low numbers.  So one would think they should be ok.  I know @Swolte has one but he's closer to Houston, so possibly a bit warmer in winter than SA.

There is another uncommon Phoenix that is supposed to be very cold hardy.  P acaulis is a dwarf species and supposed to be pretty tough.  I bought one but it didn't appreciate being shipped and went downhill and never recovered for me, so I was never able to try.

[Swolte]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

I know @Swolte has one but he's closer to Houston, so possibly a bit warmer in winter than SA.

Nono, I am effectively a zone + colder than SA. Even colder than Houston. Better than Dallas, though. 

I did protect mine (albeit without heat source) so it was hard to say. If I have to judge by recovery speed, the CIDP was doing better with cold than my Theo. @Fusca had a Theo in SA, I believe, that perished in '21. I don't think he protected it.

~ S

Edited November 27, 2023 by Swolte

[Xenon]

49 minutes ago, Swolte said:

Nono, I am effectively a zone + colder than SA. Even colder than Houston. Better than Dallas, though. 
 

Houston is a half zone warmer than San Antonio so there's no way you're an entire zone colder than San Antonio.  College Station and San Antonio look fairly similar from observation and what grows there imo (temps/zone maps would agree too). Both places have healthy Washingtonia robusta and even the unicorn queen palm pre 2021. You can still find robusta leaning hybrids in College Station. Rural areas might be a different story (same would go for San Antonio/Hill Country). 

[Swolte]

I'd agree, generally, but I am not talking averages in zone regions here but mostly my specific garden. My garden would be rural CS in a cold microclimate (relatively high and with a north facing slope) and I was assuming we were comparing it to city SA. I often compare temps after cold fronts with friends using our own thermostats and I am typically half-a-zone (about 5F) colder than downtown CS, so I am pretty sure its a full zone colder than city SA given what I see growing there.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Swolte

[Xenon]

35 minutes ago, Swolte said:

I'd agree, generally, but I am not talking averages in zone regions here but mostly my specific garden. My garden would be rural CS in a cold microclimate (relatively high and with a north facing slope) and I was assuming we were comparing it to city SA. I often compare temps after cold fronts with friends using our own thermostats and I am typically half-a-zone (about 5F) colder than downtown CS, so I am pretty sure its a full zone colder than city SA given what I see growing there.

Wow that's cold! I lived a few blocks from collectorpalms (aka the CS palm shrine) for a few months and in Bryan and was pleasantly surprised by what could grow in the area, especially when I first visited in December 2020 (lol). Washy hybrids, CIDP, and even a few Livistona chinensis survived 2021. The smaller towns like Wellborn and Navasota have some palms too and look very much "8b/9a". 

Fwiw, I didn't really see anything tender in San Antonio outside of the Riverwalk (most of the pics posted here) which is an extreme anomaly caused by dense buildings/water and doesn't represent San Antonio as a whole. Queens were iffy and very rare in San Antonio even before 2021. 

Did manage to ring in 2021 at the Riverwalk before the carnage. Here's a repost of a nice mule palm 

[fr8train]

12 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Wow that's cold! I lived a few blocks from collectorpalms (aka the CS palm shrine) for a few months and in Bryan and was pleasantly surprised by what could grow in the area, especially when I first visited in December 2020 (lol). Washy hybrids, CIDP, and even a few Livistona chinensis survived 2021. The smaller towns like Wellborn and Navasota have some palms too and look very much "8b/9a". 

Fwiw, I didn't really see anything tender in San Antonio outside of the Riverwalk (most of the pics posted here) which is an extreme anomaly caused by dense buildings/water and doesn't represent San Antonio as a whole. Queens were iffy and very rare in San Antonio even before 2021. 

Did manage to ring in 2021 at the Riverwalk before the carnage. Here's a repost of a nice mule palm 

I wonder if these would have recovered eventually too, or if they were totally dead? A few mules made it through the big freeze totally unprotected at the Oblate School of Theology. 

[fr8train]

5 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

@Chester B Last winter saw off my Phoenix Theophrasti, whereas my smaller Canariensis came back after a total defoliation. It does seem like CIDP can recover from colder temps than Theo’s, and they will also put out new growth much quicker following a freeze, further increasing the chances of recovery.

I have heard of quite a few instances now where Theo’s were killed stone dead from a freeze, whereas CIDP’s came back again for people. The perception that they are hardier than CIDP’s probably isn’t true. I can’t say for sure though, but there is mounting evidence for this nowadays.

CIDP seem indestructible to the weather. There are a number of houses around here that have them planted exposed, and it gets at least a few degrees colder here than in the city of San Antonio itself, yet they all seem to come back, even after looking totally dead. We had a lot of ice fall here this February on top of the winter lows of of December, yet all the ones I'm aware of around here have pushed out a lot of leaves since then. This summer was exceptionally dry and hot too. 

[Swolte]

2 hours ago, Xenon said:

Fwiw, I didn't really see anything tender in San Antonio outside of the Riverwalk (most of the pics posted here) which is an extreme anomaly caused by dense buildings/water and doesn't represent San Antonio as a whole. Queens were iffy and very rare in San Antonio even before 2021. 

Interesting, I did not know this. I haven't traveled around in the area around SA much as I was definitely thinking riverwalk area when I posted! 

[MarcusH]

The mule palm at the Riverwalk is replaced by Sabal Palmettos I assume it didn't make it. 

There's probably a 40 year old CIDP in our neighborhood that keeps coming back after every freeze. I'll take a picture on the weekend because by the time I get home from work it's already dark.

I don't know how many Queens were in San Antonio prior to the freeze.  James (NBTX11) said there were not that rare but most likely not as common as you would have seen in Houston since it gets a bit colder here. Wouldn't really recommend to plant it in San Antonio again . 

[Fusca]

19 hours ago, Swolte said:

 @Fusca had a Theo in SA, I believe, that perished in '21. I don't think he protected it.

Yes, I had (and lost) a theophrasti, sylvestris/dactylifera hybrid and a CIDP in February 2021.  None of them were trunking yet - all in ground less than 3 years - and none were protected.  If they had  a few additional years of growth prior to the event there might have been some survivors.  I certainly wouldn't discourage planting any of those now because of one freakish cold event.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Fusca

[fr8train]

This thread got me thinking about the Oblate School of Theology, and look how much their Sabal uresana has grown since 2016. Really cool, and I'm assuming it's not getting any special treatment based on the other palms I've seen planted there. 

2016 vs a photo I took over the summer:

[Chester B]

It looks great, but I personally love Sabals when they are in their teenage years like that one was in 2016.  Great growth though, faster than I would've expected.

[BeyondTheGarden]

That gradual trunk taper looks very cool; I expect that's due to the quick stretch upward and will fill out more evenly as the palm gets bigger and heavier. 

[Meangreen94z]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:20 PM, Xenon said:

Houston is a half zone warmer than San Antonio so there's no way you're an entire zone colder than San Antonio.  College Station and San Antonio look fairly similar from observation and what grows there imo (temps/zone maps would agree too). Both places have healthy Washingtonia robusta and even the unicorn queen palm pre 2021. You can still find robusta leaning hybrids in College Station. Rural areas might be a different story (same would go for San Antonio/Hill Country). 

There is quite a discrepancy in temperatures in the greater San Antonio area. Similar to comparing Texas City to Conroe temperatures for greater Houston

[MarcusH]

On my way downtown to take some pictures for you guys. 

[MarcusH]

Alright I took some pictures of some of the palms I came across downtown and outside in the suburbs I know there's a lot more to see when it comes to palms but my feet got tired of walking.  Mostly Filifera/Filibusta and sabals planted not really a lot of varieties but still nice to look at. 

[Dwarf Fan]

Great pics Marcus!

Can anyone ID this Palm is this a Brahea???

[MarcusH]

14 minutes ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Great pics Marcus!

Can anyone ID this Palm is this a Brahea???

Thank you Dan . Could it be a Mediterranean Fan Palm ? Another picture I took maybe 15 feet away from the one you're pointing out. 

[Tom in Tucson]

5 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Great pics Marcus!

Can anyone ID this Palm is this a Brahea???

Although the large amount of fiber on the trunk looks a little like a Trachycarpus, the leaf color rules that out. That amount of fiber is not typical for Chamaerops, but the leaf color is possible. My first impression was that the up turned leaf bases are typical for Brahea, but compared to the banana trunks, it seems too thin for that to be likely.

The only way to know for sure is to inspect the leaves, and if possible the flowers. If I had to bet on a choice at this stage, I'd put my money on it being a light starved Brahea with a thin trunk.

Hi 68°, Lo 36

[jwitt]

14 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Great pics Marcus!

Can anyone ID this Palm is this a Brahea???

Med

[Dwarf Fan]

It was the BLUE color that showed up in the pic that was puzzling me, so maybe a single trunk Chamaerops Humilis var. Argentea or Cerifera?

Marcus did it appear BLUE to you when observed with naked eye or does it appear green to everyone else?

16 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Thank you Dan . Could it be a Mediterranean Fan Palm ? Another picture I took maybe 15 feet away from the one you're pointing out. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Tom in Tucson said:

Although the large amount of fiber on the trunk looks a little like a Trachycarpus, the leaf color rules that out. That amount of fiber is not typical for Chamaerops, but the leaf color is possible. My first impression was that the up turned leaf bases are typical for Brahea, but compared to the banana trunks, it seems too thin for that to be likely.

The only way to know for sure is to inspect the leaves, and if possible the flowers. If I had to bet on a choice at this stage, I'd put my money on it being a light starved Brahea with a thin trunk.

Hi 68°, Lo 36

 

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

Med

 

[MarcusH]

5 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

It was the BLUE color that showed up in the pic that was puzzling me, so maybe a single trunk Chamaerops Humilis var. Argentea or Cerifera?

Marcus did it appear BLUE to you when observed with naked eye or does it appear green to everyone else?

 

 

 

 

The first picture you were looking at : the fronds had a green blueish color.