Sabal species explained.

[Las Palmas Norte]

This well presented video helped me to understand and appreciate the cold hardy Sabal species a lot better. Now I just have to ascertain how this pertains to PNW exotic gardens. I've dabbled with a few Sabal but feel there's more to offer, if I can eventually locate seed sources.

Cold Hardy Sabal Species

Edited November 29, 2023 by Las Palmas Norte

[Chester B]

Well I can tell you is Sabals are tough, I've had these growing for years and here is what survived last winter's bomb cyclone.  The damage we saw to our gardens in Portland was the worst anyone had seen, even people who have been at their place for 25+ years. These are palms that don't get protected.

Sabal minor - never protected, never damaged, even when small.  The hardiest palm out there for sure.  (yes hardier than needle).  I have lots of both species.

Sabal uresana - very tough but a slow grow.  Last year was the only time it was damaged, but grew back with avengeance.

Sabal "louisiana" - very tough

Sabal "Brazoriensis" - has taken some damage but grows out of it.  Too big to protect

Sabal "Birmingham" - on its second winter, but went through last year unscathed

Sabal rosei - on its second winter.  I tried to protect it last winter but the cover blew off on our coldest night with near hurricane force winds.  Tougher than what most sources say

Sabal causiarum - unfortunately it did in two of mine after growing them for a few years.  However the smallest one which I forgot to cover survived unprotected - go figure

Also there are a couple of trunking palmettos in Salem, that have seen all sorts of winters.  Sabal minors are scattered around here as well.

 

[ChicagoPalma]

My sabal seedling wen through 24F and spear pulled recently! All of my seedlings have either spear pulled or wil, I have to trunk cut one and its growing well now, and the other ones came out clean so i put some hydrogen peroxide and growth has been starting.

[Las Palmas Norte]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

... Also there are a couple of trunking palmettos in Salem, that have seen all sorts of winters. ...

Perhaps the additional summer heat of the Willamette valley gives the the vigor that gets them thru any nasty winter events.

The only S.palmetto I tried was a 5 gallon planted in a prime spot. I languished for a few years before eventually dying. I think it needs a longer growing season than I have.

[Chester B]

4 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Perhaps the additional summer heat of the Willamette valley gives the the vigor that gets them thru any nasty winter events.

The only S.palmetto I tried was a 5 gallon planted in a prime spot. I languished for a few years before eventually dying. I think it needs a longer growing season than I have.

Yes, I agree with you.  We are much hotter in summer, and our most notably our nighttime lows are getting significantly warmer with each passing year.  To keep them growing well in summer I have to water as much as possible since we get no appreciable rain for months.

[Paradise Found]

I have to agree that planting a palm tree in ground and In containers is always best in spring  they need that active growing season to get through first winter.   

[RFun]

4 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

My sabal seedling wen through 24F and spear pulled recently! All of my seedlings have either spear pulled or wil, I have to trunk cut one and its growing well now, and the other ones came out clean so i put some hydrogen peroxide and growth has been starting.

Sounds like your sabal seedling is a weakling.

[ChicagoPalma]

My Sabal minor spear pulled after 24F…

[ChicagoPalma]

22 minutes ago, RFun said:

Sounds like your sabal seedling is a weakling.

Probably, but it was grown in tenesee and it has seen temps very low than that, but three days before it was 83f so it probably received temperature shock.

[Las Palmas Norte]

4 hours ago, Chester B said:

Yes, I agree with you.  We are much hotter in summer, and our most notably our nighttime lows are getting significantly warmer with each passing year.  To keep them growing well in summer I have to water as much as possible since we get no appreciable rain for months.

Similar situation here. As you state, most Sabal require decent watering in the summer months and prolonged NW summer droughts won't cut it. Right now all I have is S. minor but I'd like to expand on that. Would it be safe to assume that most Sabal species would currently have seeds? If so, I'll have to start hunting on-line.

[Alex Zone 5]

Growing Sabal from seeds is fun but painfully slow....

Sabal Louisiana/Brazoria from seeds 👍

Plain minor/Birmingham/Mc curtain/ nothing smaller than 7 gallon. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, Alex Zone 5 said:

Growing Sabal from seeds is fun but painfully slow....

Perhaps, but even in my region of Canada, where palms are not uncommon, finding anything much beyond Trachycarpus, Chamaerops, or Rhapidophyllum is nearly impossible. I do have one contact (private grower) that might have some Sabal sp.

[southpacific73]

Las Palmas Norte I have some Sabal species all grown from seed.  If you’re ever on the mainland PM me. Also you can message Dan in Nanoose Bay as he’s got some Sabals also.

[Alex Zone 5]

4 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Perhaps, but even in my region of Canada, where palms are not uncommon, finding anything much beyond Trachycarpus, Chamaerops, or Rhapidophyllum is nearly impossible. I do have one contact (private grower) that might have some Sabal sp.

Well,looky here!!! I'm in Montreal, still have sabal Louisiana and MC curtain if interested.  I have sprouted  Brazoria/ Palmetto/ plain sabal minor Virginia both somewhat fast growing. I could send some your way!!

Edited December 1, 2023 by Alex Zone 5
Added photo

[Las Palmas Norte]

5 hours ago, southpacific73 said:

Las Palmas Norte I have some Sabal species all grown from seed.  If you’re ever on the mainland PM me. Also you can message Dan in Nanoose Bay as he’s got some Sabals also.

PM sent.

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, Alex Zone 5 said:

Well,looky here!!! I'm in Montreal, still have sabal Louisiana and MC curtain if interested.  I have sprouted  Brazoria/ Palmetto/ plain sabal minor Virginia both somewhat fast growing. I could send some your way!!

Thanks. I'm attempting to work with @southpacific73 if that comes together this weekend.

[Alex Zone 5]

On 11/29/2023 at 1:11 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

This well presented video helped me to understand and appreciate the cold hardy Sabal species a lot better. Now I just have to ascertain how this pertains to PNW exotic gardens. I've dabbled with a few Sabal but feel there's more to offer, if I can eventually locate seed sources.

Cold Hardy Sabal Species

Just watched it....this guy knows his Sabal, very well explained.🌴

[Las Palmas Norte]

Update: I met up with @southpacific73 over the weekend. I had family commitments and as a consequence, our visit was short but pleasurable. I left knowing that I will return someday for a better more in depth stop-over. He had some examples of what I was interested in.

In the late Autumn sun are, Sabal riverside, S. louisiana, S. burmudana, & S. lisa

 

 

[Alex Zone 5]

Nice palms haul buddy 🌴👍

[ShadyDan]

I have Sabal palmetto and minor that made it through the past 2 brutal winters outside unprotected. Oddly, my minor received more damage (although still minimal) than my palmetto lasts winter but both grew out of the damage just fine this past summer. 
 

I have some decent sized causiarum growing in my greenhouse, along with some smaller minor, palmetto, palmetto ‘Lisa’, “Defuniak”, and “Tamaulipas”. The causiarums are real rockets compared to any of the other Sabals I have, growing just about as fast as the faster palms I have for our climate (Chamaerops, Trachycarpus etc…). 
 

Id like to try all of these in the ground at some point, but my 1/4 acre lot only leaves me with so much room. I’m going to see if I can squeeze a good sized causiarum in my yard somewhere this spring. 
 

Let me know if you are down my way and I’d be happy to part with some. Also, Green Thumb nurseries in Nanaimo often has a good selection of palms. The grower enjoys trying new species; I’ve seen nicely grown Sabal palmetto, minor, and uresana there before for reasonable prices. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Thanks @ShadyDan. Next time thru I'll be sure to use my GPS to find your house. Interesting notes on the growth you're getting from S. causiarum

[southpacific73]

On 12/5/2023 at 3:42 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Update: I met up with @southpacific73 over the weekend. I had family commitments and as a consequence, our visit was short but pleasurable. I left knowing that I will return someday for a better more in depth stop-over. He had some examples of what I was interested in.

In the late Autumn sun are, Sabal riverside, S. louisiana, S. burmudana, & S. lisa

 

 

It was awesome to meet you Las Palmas Norte.! Enjoy the palms and give us updates when possible. Happy Growing!

[Las Palmas Norte]

6 hours ago, southpacific73 said:

It was awesome to meet you Las Palmas Norte.! Enjoy the palms and give us updates when possible. Happy Growing!

Only update has been adding soil to the S. 'Riverside'. It was only half full so I lifted it out & added more soil and refilled. The last riverside I had was plated that size and grew very well unprotected. Thanks again for a chance at growing these Sabal species.

[teddytn]

Sabals are my favorite palm family. Of course out of necessity because of where I live, but I’ve grown to love the different species and the not so well defined hybrids. Seems like by this point in time it should be more clear as to what the limitations are in terms of cold hardiness of a given palm…right?

Honestly not so much. There’s tons of data out there and tons of people have been sharing their experiences with palms throughout the years. But how many people grow out an entire batch of seeds from a given palm? I have been planting 2 or more of everything palm, yucca, cactus, agave since I started getting serious about gardening with cool ornamentals. Within those 2 planted in different locations even in just my yard there’s variation in color, size, growth speed, and damage taken during a cold event. 
 

Imagine if you took an entire batch of seeds from a given palm let’s say palmetto from Florida ( going consensus is palmetto is an 8a palm ) grew all these out in a field, let them go through their entire life cycle to maturity, then they were all subjected to a 6b winter with sustained below freezing temps…would this kill every single palm? Now imagine this experiment was done with a more northern locale palmetto like from North Carolina, what would be the results then? 
 

Whats the point? Humans have been tracking weather for only so long, seems like previous to the 1800’s there most likely would have been hotter and colder periods in time. There’s definitely accounts of Sabal minor ranging way farther north in the recent past than most people give them credit for now. Especially and Sabal that has Sabal minor genetics mixed in has the potential to handle seriously cold weather. Remember the much loved Sabal Birmingham that so many of us plant for its cold hardiness, was an anomaly that is still cloudy as far as what it actually is. I am of the belief that all the mysteries are not solved and there is more to be found out. I plan to keep planting as many sabals as I can, and not being dismayed by killing one or twelve. Lol 

[Las Palmas Norte]

1 hour ago, teddytn said:

Sabals are my favorite palm family. Of course out of necessity because of where I live, but I’ve grown to love the different species and the not so well defined hybrids. Seems like by this point in time it should be more clear as to what the limitations are in terms of cold hardiness of a given palm…right?

Honestly not so much. There’s tons of data out there and tons of people have been sharing their experiences with palms throughout the years. But how many people grow out an entire batch of seeds from a given palm? I have been planting 2 or more of everything palm, yucca, cactus, agave since I started getting serious about gardening with cool ornamentals. Within those 2 planted in different locations even in just my yard there’s variation in color, size, growth speed, and damage taken during a cold event. 
 

Imagine if you took an entire batch of seeds from a given palm let’s say palmetto from Florida ( going consensus is palmetto is an 8a palm ) grew all these out in a field, let them go through their entire life cycle to maturity, then they were all subjected to a 6b winter with sustained below freezing temps…would this kill every single palm? Now imagine this experiment was done with a more northern locale palmetto like from North Carolina, what would be the results then? 
 

Whats the point? Humans have been tracking weather for only so long, seems like previous to the 1800’s there most likely would have been hotter and colder periods in time. There’s definitely accounts of Sabal minor ranging way farther north in the recent past than most people give them credit for now. Especially and Sabal that has Sabal minor genetics mixed in has the potential to handle seriously cold weather. Remember the much loved Sabal Birmingham that so many of us plant for its cold hardiness, was an anomaly that is still cloudy as far as what it actually is. I am of the belief that all the mysteries are not solved and there is more to be found out. I plan to keep planting as many sabals as I can, and not being dismayed by killing one or twelve. Lol 

So many questions / experiments, so little time.

S. palmetto despite it's hardiness rating is marginal here even in zone 8b and maybe in our small pockets of 9a. The dark rainy winters are not to their liking. True summer heat is scarce in our 9a oceanside locations, and 8a/b although warmer in summer, are more at risk of limited arctic outbreaks. Will survivors be long term? Provenance may be a factor as well as proper sighting. S. minor is or has been bullet proof as has been Riverside. That's been the extent of my limited exposure to the Sabal species. I'm looking forward to the continued Sabal experiment with my new acquisitions.

[Chester B]

One bit of advice I can offer is to grow them up, and bring them indoors in winter the first couple of years or so.  In my experience they do better going in the ground when they are throwing fully palmate fronds.  Sabal minor seems to be the exception and don't seem to mind being planted out small when they are only on a few strap leaves for me.

[Marco67]

Sabal Louisiana,  Brazoriensis and Mccurtains doing fine here in a cool Oceanic climate, very slow though. 

Wasn't so lucky with Rhapidophyllum hystrix and lost one. Probably too wet and cool here in Northwestern Europe.  

I don't know any succes stories with Sabal Palmetto's either. They seem to slowly wither away. Not enough heat probably. 

Trachycarpus and Chamaerops do so much better here so no one seems to bother with Sabals. They are also hard to find in Garden centers. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

12 minutes ago, Chester B said:

One bit of advice I can offer is to grow them up, and bring them indoors in winter the first couple of years or so.  In my experience they do better going in the ground when they are throwing fully palmate fronds.  Sabal minor seems to be the exception and don't seem to mind being planted out small when they are only on a few strap leaves for me.

I see your objective on sheltering seedlings. I rolled the dice on S. 'Riverside' some years ago and planted a strap leaf seedling. Maybe the winters where fine during those early years but it managed fine. I may have provided some rudimentary protection on the worst days. Having said that, I will be diligent with my newly acquired seedling and grow them on before cutting them loose.

Here's the one and only planted Sabal (minor) I have, two years in.

 

[ChicagoPalma]

Reminds me, we really do need to conduct experiments on different species of palms or genus, like dwarf butias, or different hybrids. All well documented. I would like to achieve that if I get my own property of course, doing the same what Northeast Ohio palms are doing. They are trying out butia hybrids in ohio from what I heard.

[Las Palmas Norte]

 

1 minute ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Reminds me, we really do need to conduct experiments ...

It quite likely would be that experiments are limited in traditionally non palm growing areas. Other regions have been trial testing palms for many years, some, especially in England, have been doing that for well over a century.

[teddytn]

5 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Sabal Louisiana,  Brazoriensis and Mccurtains doing fine here in a cool Oceanic climate, very slow though. 

Wasn't so lucky with Rhapidophyllum hystrix and lost one. Probably too wet and cool here in Northwestern Europe.  

I don't know any succes stories with Sabal Palmetto's either. They seem to slowly wither away. Not enough heat probably. 

Trachycarpus and Chamaerops do so much better here so no one seems to bother with Sabals. They are also hard to find in Garden centers. 

Do all the places in Europe where Chamaerops survive tend to have dry winters? 

[southpacific73]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:09 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Only update has been adding soil to the S. 'Riverside'. It was only half full so I lifted it out & added more soil and refilled. The last riverside I had was plated that size and grew very well unprotected. Thanks again for a chance at growing these Sabal species.

The soil gets washed away from all the winter rains sometimes and needs to topped up. Glad to help you in your Sabal search!

[southpacific73]

5 minutes ago, southpacific73 said:

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by southpacific73

[BeyondTheGarden]

On 12/9/2023 at 2:09 AM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Only update has been adding soil to the S. 'Riverside'. It was only half full so I lifted it out & added more soil and refilled. The last riverside I had was plated that size and grew very well unprotected. Thanks again for a chance at growing these Sabal species.

As @Chester B will tell you (I think it was him that told me), riverside is supposed to be quite suitable for the PNW.  I had 2 riverside in one gallons when I lived there.  I brought them to NC and had to repot them.  I'm sure they'll do OK on the east coast but I really was looking forward to growing them in Washington. 

[Marco67]

18 hours ago, teddytn said:

Do all the places in Europe where Chamaerops survive tend to have dry winters? 

Winters in Nortwestern Europe are not what you call dry. It's damp and cold most of the times. 

[RFun]

On 12/5/2023 at 6:42 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Update: I met up with @southpacific73 over the weekend. I had family commitments and as a consequence, our visit was short but pleasurable. I left knowing that I will return someday for a better more in depth stop-over. He had some examples of what I was interested in.

In the late Autumn sun are, Sabal riverside, S. louisiana, S. burmudana, & S. lisa

 

 

They'll take a while to grow there, no doubt.  It will be interesting to see what the rate of growth is.

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, RFun said:

They'll take a while to grow there, no doubt.  It will be interesting to see what the rate of growth is.

Riverside was no slouch for me at my last place. The others I have not tried before.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Las Palmas Norte

[ShadyDan]

A few growth rate comparisons, all grown in my greenhouse so definitely warmer than outside but still cool nights in the summer and long stretches of cool, grey weather in the winter. 
 

This a picture from September 2022 showing the growth rates of Sabal mexicana (left) Sabal palmetto (center) and Sabal causiarum (right). Seed was germinated at the same time (spring 2022 sometime). Sabal causiarum growing at double the speed of the other two. 

 

Here is an updated picture I took today of the same Sabal causiarum (left) vs a Sabal minor (right) germinated earlier (spring 2021 I believe). Night and day difference! 

[Las Palmas Norte]

S.causarium looks like a good performer. Too bad it's a marginal palm for us. I guess it's another one that if sited well and given some protection in the extremes, may stand a decent chance.

[96720]

I bought a Sabal they claimed was princepts but I’m not finding it so someone just made that up? Also I bought some Sabal seeds how long does it take them to sprout?