Winterizing contradictions

[Than]

I am considering winterizing methods and I read lots of advice online. However, some of them seem to contradict each other. Can anyone help me clear the mental fog?

1. Cover plants under tall evergreen trees to stop frost from falling on plants and also to trap heat VS use deciduous trees so that sun rays can pass through in the winter and warm plants up.

2. Mulch the soil around the soil to insulate it VS keep soil clear because it absorbs heat during the day and releases it during the night.

3. Keep the soil dry during cold spells to avoid freezing the roots VS water the plants because wet soil absorbs much more heat (again, if there is mulch on it, how can it absorb heat anyway?)

🤔

 

[Foxpalms]

3 hours ago, ego said:

I am considering winterizing methods and I read lots of advice online. However, some of them seem to contradict each other. Can anyone help me clear the mental fog?

1. Cover plants under tall evergreen trees to stop frost from falling on plants and also to trap heat VS use deciduous trees so that sun rays can pass through in the winter and warm plants up.

2. Mulch the soil around the soil to insulate it VS keep soil clear because it absorbs heat during the day and releases it during the night.

3. Keep the soil dry during cold spells to avoid freezing the roots VS water the plants because wet soil absorbs much more heat (again, if there is mulch on it, how can it absorb heat anyway?)

🤔

 

1. I would recommend using evergreens over deciduous trees because it's the night time temp and protecting the plants from frost that makes more of a difference during these cold spells. If you place the evergreen trees on the north side and don't block the sunlight coming from the south just in front of where the trees are placed it will actually help the heat build more. I would recommend not making the tree canopy too dense, as you want it to still let in a good amount of sunlight. Eucalyptus trees are good at proving this.

 

 

2. Use Mulch I personally find my mulch isn't cooler than bare soil during the day and it retains more heat which it slowly releases at night.

3. Keep the soil dry not wet. Whilst technically yes the wet soil is slightly warmer, if the freeze is prolonged for more than a few hours once the soil temp hits the 1c-0c temp it puts the soil at a higher risk of freezing the roots however wet soil would especially if it's warmer will slow the cooling of the soil down. Either way I would advise keeping the soil on the drier side as I find here certain palm trees (Syagrus for me) can't stand cold wet soil or they will get root rot.  You can always use a thin layer of mulch that way it will protect the roots and keep the soil warmer and the soil will be able to warm up.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Foxpalms

[Than]

3 hours ago, Foxpalms said:

1. I would recommend using evergreens over deciduous trees because it's the night time temp and protecting the plants from frost that makes more of a difference during these cold spells. If you place the evergreen trees on the north side and don't block the sunlight coming from the south just in front of where the trees are placed it will actually help the heat build more. I would recommend not making the tree canopy too dense, as you want it to still let in a good amount of sunlight. Eucalyptus trees are good at proving this.

 

 

2. Use Mulch I personally find my mulch isn't cooler than bare soil during the day and it retains more heat which it slowly releases at night.

3. Keep the soil dry not wet. Whilst technically yes the wet soil is slightly warmer, if the freeze is prolonged for more than a few hours once the soil temp hits the 1c-0c temp it puts the soil at a higher risk of freezing the roots however wet soil would especially if it's warmer will slow the cooling of the soil down. Either way I would advise keeping the soil on the drier side as I find here certain palm trees (Syagrus for me) can't stand cold wet soil or they will get root rot.  You can always use a thin layer of mulch that way it will protect the roots and keep the soil warmer and the soil will be able to warm up.

Thanks so much. I need to plant evergreens on the northern side of the garden before I start planting the most sensitive plants I guess. And I'll go for mulch! 

Now, keeping the soil dry in my area will be a challenge as it rains on average 15 days every month in the winter.. how do I do that?

[flplantguy]

If you get rain a lot you can't really do anything about the soil, but if you are pushing your luck with the zone and fungus do a peroxide regimen or a systemic fungicide before you expect the possible issues.  I do that with my orchids right before the first heavy summer rains for water molds cuz if I don't I have problems.  If its a palm and cold just turn off irrigation and keep your eyes and peroxide handy to drench the crown and basal area. That and the active protections people use are all you can do for them, along with the comments above. Cold wet is a hard one to deal with too.

[Than]

2 hours ago, flplantguy said:

If you get rain a lot you can't really do anything about the soil, but if you are pushing your luck with the zone and fungus do a peroxide regimen or a systemic fungicide before you expect the possible issues.  I do that with my orchids right before the first heavy summer rains for water molds cuz if I don't I have problems.  If its a palm and cold just turn off irrigation and keep your eyes and peroxide handy to drench the crown and basal area. That and the active protections people use are all you can do for them, along with the comments above. Cold wet is a hard one to deal with too.

Isn't this another contradiction though? You wanna keep the soil dry but you also wanna put mulch on it. Won't mulch keep moisture trapped and stop the soil from drying?

[flplantguy]

It can but the biggest issue is any cold wet staying against the trunk so leave a gap there, and once the chill gets into the soil further down those effects are nil.  This is why a coconut will not do well in my area (or southern California) even if we avoid a freeze that year, the soil profile gets too chilly.  The soil will always get too cold for them and they suffer many other problems too.  If you can plant in an amended well drained spot that can help the wetness, along with heating cables in the soil to keep the plant warmer. I heard once that worked to get root growth on canary dates on las Vegas in winter but have never done it myself.

[flplantguy]

Adding stones with a high heat capacity can help also to gain heat above but will not effect soil much outside insulating it and needs sun and warm days between cold.  A weed mat can deflect water also to lower spots that could help keep the base dry outside of rain in the crown, or make a conservatory.  I also have not decided yet what to do for mine lol.

[Than]

10 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

Adding stones with a high heat capacity can help also to gain heat above but will not effect soil much outside insulating it and needs sun and warm days between cold.  A weed mat can deflect water also to lower spots that could help keep the base dry outside of rain in the crown, or make a conservatory.  I also have not decided yet what to do for mine lol.

One must be very creative it seems! Thanks a lot for the advice. I think stones are also going to be useful. Usually it is after sunny days that we get frost due to radiation, so the stones will have a chance to warm up.

[Foxpalms]

24 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

I heard once that worked to get root growth on canary dates on las Vegas in winter but have never done it myself.

Possibly but canary island date palms still grow and push out fronds slowly here in the winter so it's hard to tell if the soil heating cable was the main reason it was growing roots. But it would definitely dry out the soil. There's probably no point in using a heat cable though for the soil unless it was a multiple zones push for example something such as a Hyophorbe verschaffeltii.

[Foxpalms]

23 minutes ago, ego said:

One must be very creative it seems! Thanks a lot for the advice. I think stones are also going to be useful. Usually it is after sunny days that we get frost due to radiation, so the stones will have a chance to warm up.

I have stones in my arid area and it does heat up but there's not a huge difference because of the pathetically weak sun strength at this latitude in the winter. Where you are it will probably make much more of a difference. During spring, summer and Autumn however the soil under the stones warms up quickly and it radiates heat around the plants. 

[Silas_Sancona]

53 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

I have stones in my arid area and it does heat up but there's not a huge difference because of the pathetically weak sun strength at this latitude in the winter. Where you are it will probably make much more of a difference. During spring, summer and Autumn however the soil under the stones warms up quickly and it radiates heat around the plants. 

Somewhat correct...

While stone can warm faster than open, bare ground on a sunny day,  how much it warms depends on the color of it..  Darker the stone type, the more heat it will absorb and radiate back later. 

This also effects how much heat is radiated / reflected back to plants growing in it..  Most yards here use lighter colored stone because it radiates less heat. 

Soil beneath a layer of stone actually stays cooler, esp. if thicker than 2-4" ..during the warmer months esp.  ( lighter colored stone esp ) ..and retains moisture longer than open ground.  Stone can help to keep warmth in the soil better during the winter however that is more due to the layer of stone slowing the cooling of the prevailing temperature of the soil, vs. stone adding a ton of extra heat to it.

 

 

1 hour ago, flplantguy said:

Adding stones with a high heat capacity can help also to gain heat above but will not effect soil much outside insulating it and needs sun and warm days between cold.  A weed mat can deflect water also to lower spots that could help keep the base dry outside of rain in the crown, or make a conservatory.  I also have not decided yet what to do for mine lol.

Weed mat / fabric is probably the worst thing one can lay on the surface of the soil.. Use is highly frowned upon / discouraged in many cities here thankfully.  Small patch of it around the base of a plant won't keep moisture from getting to the base of the plant(s) either.

[flplantguy]

I was thinking more in terms of heavy rain runoff on a mound, but yes it's not a solution at all-more a block that doesnt prevent soil moisture movement anyway, so is really only useful for me to stop the water from dragging my sand away from the plant bases and erosion/preventing my shell from sinking into the sand.  There isn't really any way to make a big change on a micro scale that would be needed to solve that problem, hence my conservatory suggestion lol.  You may get lucky with a few creative ideas but be prepared for them to go sideways too.  I had a roommate that was notorious for it lol.

[Silas_Sancona]

14 minutes ago, flplantguy said:

I was thinking more in terms of heavy rain runoff on a mound, but yes it's not a solution at all-more a block that doesnt prevent soil moisture movement anyway, so is really only useful for me to stop the water from dragging my sand away from the plant bases and erosion/preventing my shell from sinking into the sand.  There isn't really any way to make a big change on a micro scale that would be needed to solve that problem, hence my conservatory suggestion lol.  You may get lucky with a few creative ideas but be prepared for them to go sideways too.  I had a roommate that was notorious for it lol.

I'd be planting in bowls rather than on mounds, them filling in the " bowl ' with rock or shell. A long time member here perfected the technique out in CA ( left the bowls open though and allowed leaves and other stuff to collect in them over time ) ..  Only way i plant stuff as well.. works wonders.

Sand there is a challenge, but i always stuffed shell, rock or chunks of grass in the planting holes when planting things there to slow down post installation settling. Also worked out pretty well.


 

[kinzyjr]

13 hours ago, ego said:

I am considering winterizing methods and I read lots of advice online. However, some of them seem to contradict each other. Can anyone help me clear the mental fog?

1. Cover plants under tall evergreen trees to stop frost from falling on plants and also to trap heat VS use deciduous trees so that sun rays can pass through in the winter and warm plants up.

2. Mulch the soil around the soil to insulate it VS keep soil clear because it absorbs heat during the day and releases it during the night.

3. Keep the soil dry during cold spells to avoid freezing the roots VS water the plants because wet soil absorbs much more heat (again, if there is mulch on it, how can it absorb heat anyway?)

🤔

 

For #1, I can vouch that tree canopy works well.  Quercus virginiana (Live Oak) is one of the better canopy trees here.  They do stop frost from forming and that lowers the amount of damage you'll experience during a radiational freeze.  For an advective freeze, if you have windbreaks to drop the wind speed it will help a bit.  With these two conditions in place, you still have to find a way to get enough light to the palm for it to grow.  In the northern hemisphere, that means you should have your canopy open to the south so the lower sun angle in the winter can reach what you are growing.

My personal preference is to keep things dry during a cold snap, but plenty of growers disagree. 

As for mulch, I use various kinds, but the main purpose is to keep the soil moist.

The best protection against cold is to plant a garden that is tolerant of cold conditions.  Here, that means using Livistona decora instead of Adonidia merrillii.

[Than]

16 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

For #1, I can vouch that tree canopy works well.  Quercus virginiana (Live Oak) is one of the better canopy trees here.  They do stop frost from forming and that lowers the amount of damage you'll experience during a radiational freeze.  For an advective freeze, if you have windbreaks to drop the wind speed it will help a bit.  With these two conditions in place, you still have to find a way to get enough light to the palm for it to grow.  In the northern hemisphere, that means you should have your canopy open to the south so the lower sun angle in the winter can reach what you are growing.

My personal preference is to keep things dry during a cold snap, but plenty of growers disagree. 

As for mulch, I use various kinds, but the main purpose is to keep the soil moist.

The best protection against cold is to plant a garden that is tolerant of cold conditions.  Here, that means using Livistona decora instead of Adonidia merrillii.

Hmmm true, using hardy plants is the best approach. I am looking for the second best cos I just can't help falling in love with those lush tropicals! 

Thank you for the advice. The freeze in my area is almost always radiational so I am looking for a species of tree that can provide good cover in the winter. I am considering a carob tree and anything else that looks a exotic/interesting and grows relatively fast. I guess I'll prune it so that it provides cover without blocking the sun rays in the winter. 

I am also thinking of strategically placing corridors in the garden, covered in black stones near the most sensitive plants. Thus the stones can provide some warmth at nights. Then some decorative big dark rocks, a south facing wall and a wind breaker. I hope that all these combined with the canopy will raise the temperature by 2-3 degrees. That should be enough to make sure I never get below 0 C (32 F).

 

[Than]

By the way, would a small pond make any difference? I was thinking of smth like 2x2 metres (6x6 feet),  and perhaps a meter (3 feet) deep; made of black material if it helps.. would such a small surface help retain and then radiate warmth? If yes, then I could make one next to the most sensitive plants.

 

[Foxpalms]

1 hour ago, ego said:

By the way, would a small pond make any difference? I was thinking of smth like 2x2 metres (6x6 feet),  and perhaps a meter (3 feet) deep; made of black material if it helps.. would such a small surface help retain and then radiate warmth? If yes, then I could make one next to the most sensitive plants.

 

If you also put it partially under the tree canopy yes.