Royal vs King Alexander cold hardiness

[Palmfarmer]

Are they roughly the same hardiness? 

Does the King Alexander like swampy conditions just like the regular King? 

[James B]

Alexandrae handles prolonged cold or cloudiness much better than Roystonea.

That said once mature many have documented in central/northern Florida Roystonea surviving short terms low temps that would probably take out any King Palm.

[sonoranfans]

Mature Alexandre are more susceptible to cold snaps than a mature royal which is a larger mass bud and trunk palm that takes longer to cool off.  I have both in my yard and the royals are more exposed about 10' above the canopy, a bit taller than my ~30' alexandre triple.  Defoliation a few years back was complete save the spears for the alexandre while the (2) royals had a few of the newest green leaves(4?) left after a 9 hour advective cold event with a low of 29F.  The Royals also recovered noticeably faster the following year.  I also have a maxima and myolensis that were smaller and more protected though similarly damaged to the alexandre, just spears left.  As far a prolonged cool in winter, I dont know as we have a 10 month growing season here.  Both of these palms want lots of water, if water is a problem or an excessive expense, I'd look elsewhere for a palm to plant.  

[donalt]

royals, once they have six or eight feet of trunk, are better able to recover from cold damage. 

[Silas_Sancona]

4 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Mature Alexandre are more susceptible to cold snaps than a mature royal which is a larger mass bud and trunk palm that takes longer to cool off.  I have both in my yard and the royals are more exposed about 10' above the canopy, a bit taller than my ~30' alexandre triple.  Defoliation a few years back was complete save the spears for the alexandre while the (2) royals had a few of the newest green leaves(4?) left after a 9 hour advective cold event with a low of 29F.  The Royals also recovered noticeably faster the following year.  I also have a maxima and myolensis that were smaller and more protected though similarly damaged to the alexandre, just spears left.  As far a prolonged cool in winter, I dont know as we have a 10 month growing season here.  Both of these palms want lots of water, if water is a problem or an excessive expense, I'd look elsewhere for a palm to plant.  

 

40 minutes ago, donalt said:

royals, once they have six or eight feet of trunk, are better able to recover from cold damage. 

Have to agree with both thoughts..

While, to my knowledge,  there is only one example to gauge from,  the Royal up in my old neighborhood in San Jose has held up far better than i'd have assumed thru the years since it was noted ..and i'm pretty sure it gets very little attention ( would likely look better if it did ..Imagine so anyway )

To my knowledge, there are no A. alexandrae  specimens up there, though i suspect someone in a good part of town could have some deg. of success w/ one if they really babied it.. Regular ol' kings ( A. cunninghamiana ) can do well,  though they too can look a bit tattered after a really cold winter / if not watered enough / fed regularly, period.

[Harry’s Palms]

My Venezuelan Royal and my King Alexandre are abut 15-20 feet apart( both planted as 5 gal., no trunk) and I am in a cool Southern California area . The Royal is more sensitive when young , I believe. I have seen frost only a few times in 27 years and it was very brief . There was no frost on the palms but about 10 yards away. They both have at least 8 feet of trunk now and look good for this region. The other two King Palms(Cunninghamiana) on the other side of my house (west) also doing well. Harry

[Silas_Sancona]

15 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 

Have to agree with both thoughts..

While, to my knowledge,  there is only one example to gauge from,  the Royal up in my old neighborhood in San Jose has held up far better than i'd have assumed thru the years since it was noted ..and i'm pretty sure it gets very little attention ( would likely look better if it did ..Imagine so anyway )

To my knowledge, there are no A. alexandrae  specimens up there, though i suspect someone in a good part of town could have some deg. of success w/ one if they really babied it.. Regular ol' kings ( A. cunninghamiana ) can do well,  though they too can look a bit tattered after a really cold winter / if not watered enough / fed regularly, period.

I  should have included the following examples when i wrote this but totally forgot..

Mentioned this house a few times in the past..  Outside of @Jim in Los Altos collection, probably the best example of using King Palms ive seen anywhere in the south bay -thus far-.. Know this neighborhood ..too well, lol  and have kept an eye on the progress of this yard since ..2012.. Gone through some rough looking stages over the years,  but are looking great now. 

In the 2nd shot, the King planted near the tan van was a replacement for a Foxtail that had been planted there back in 2013. Pretty sure i'd mentioned it somewhere, long in the past.  Note too the King peeking out from the far left corner of their neighbor's yard.

Fyi: Not sure why street view uses the " Public Storage ' tag..  It is further down this particular street.


" House of Kings "  As of Nov. last year.







One of a few, bigger Kings i've kept an eye on since ....the mid 90s. Note the Norfolk Is. / Hoop Pines in the background.  Starting to see more of those in street view images around the old hood as well.  Bigger, yellow-ish green tree poking out on the left of the shorter King has befuddled my attempts at ID'ing for years, lol.

Meridian Ave Kings. ( image also captured in November of last year )





Side note inclusion:  Couple more Majesties spied around town:

Santa Teressa / Oak Grove area:



East side, not too far from Payless Nursery / East Ridge Mall.  Anyone reasonably familiar w/ the area will know both locations / general part of San Jo'.

[Palmfarmer]

5 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

My Venezuelan Royal and my King Alexandre are abut 15-20 feet apart( both planted as 5 gal., no trunk) and I am in a cool Southern California area . The Royal is more sensitive when young , I believe. I have seen frost only a few times in 27 years and it was very brief . There was no frost on the palms but about 10 yards away. They both have at least 8 feet of trunk now and look good for this region. The other two King Palms(Cunninghamiana) on the other side of my house (west) also doing well. Harry

Are King alexander as fast as queens?.

[Harry’s Palms]

On 12/5/2023 at 2:43 PM, Palmfarmer said:

Are King alexander as fast as queens?.

In my experience the Queens are much faster growing. Harry

[NickJames]

January 2022 vs December 2023

royals

2 hard freezes, 2 light freezes, 5 frosts. 

the one on the left is vastly outperforming the other two. 

[kinzyjr]

5 hours ago, NickJames said:

January 2022 vs December 2023

royals

2 hard freezes, 2 light freezes, 5 frosts. 

the one on the left is vastly outperforming the other two. 

They look fantastic, especially considering the damage they took from those events!

[FlaPalmLover]

1 hour ago, kinzyjr said:

They look fantastic, especially considering the damage they took from those events!

Agreed. May have to try one myself. I'm surprised how green his look. The I4 ones by Sanford may not be the best representation of what's possible this way, considering they probably are hardly ever fertilized or watered if I had to guess.

[NickJames]

4 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

They look fantastic, especially considering the damage they took from those events!

They’ve been severely damaged two years in a row now. I’m hoping for a little break this season but I guess we will find out!

the one on the left is definitely rapidly growing and outpacing the other two.

each season though the planting area becomes more and more protective IMO…between all the plants in general, and the wind block I’ve built to the N and NW using bamboo and queen palms…I’ve definitely increased the humidity and ambient temperature if even by a degree or two.

[NickJames]

2 hours ago, FlaPalmLover said:

Agreed. May have to try one myself. I'm surprised how green his look. The I4 ones by Sanford may not be the best representation of what's possible this way, considering they probably are hardly ever fertilized or watered if I had to guess.

They appear to be in small planters surrounded by concrete, right? It wouldn’t surprise me if the soil is very alkaline there due to the concrete plus devoid of any organic material in general in addition to the points you brought up. 

my royals of course get fertilized, are surrounded by mini pine bark mulch and they are on general spray head irrigation. 

I would love to see you try one. 
 

 

[Than]

On 12/7/2023 at 9:27 PM, NickJames said:

January 2022 vs December 2023

royals

2 hard freezes, 2 light freezes, 5 frosts. 

the one on the left is vastly outperforming the other two. 

Amazing recovery. 5 frosts?? That gives me so much hope! 

Were they totally unprotected?

[NickJames]

4 hours ago, ego said:

Amazing recovery. 5 frosts?? That gives me so much hope! 

Were they totally unprotected?

Yes, because I had my propane heaters pointed at even less tolerant plants. 

In fact, the Christmas 2022 freeze I had my sprinkler on and they had literal ice on them lol. I’m not kidding. 

[NickJames]

Since everyone was so interested, I figured I would share some more photos. 
 

You can see how bad the frost was on this one. The Bahia was burnt to a crisp. The green grass you see in the photo is ryegrass. This was shortly after the fence was out in. I’d seeded the disturbed area with cheap ryegrass knowing that by spring we’d be tearing up the backyard for a pool. 

[NickJames]

It does appear after all that on January 30, 2022, I did wrap two of the royals in incandescent Christmas lights. If it truly did anything, I have no idea. 

[Than]

6 hours ago, NickJames said:

Yes, because I had my propane heaters pointed at even less tolerant plants. 

In fact, the Christmas 2022 freeze I had my sprinkler on and they had literal ice on them lol. I’m not kidding. 

OK I am super intrigued. Two more questions: What were the maximum temperatures the days after the frosts? And was the soil moist/wet?

Somehow I think that plants in Florida forgive a lot more than plants in California, even when they experience the same temperatures and frost.. must be smth about Florida's weather... perhaps the fact that they have perfect conditions during the grow season, makes them sturdier and more likely to withstand difficulties in the winter..

Edited December 10, 2023 by ego

[James B]

7 hours ago, ego said:

OK I am super intrigued. Two more questions: What were the maximum temperatures the days after the frosts? And was the soil moist/wet?

Somehow I think that plants in Florida forgive a lot more than plants in California, even when they experience the same temperatures and frost.. must be smth about Florida's weather... perhaps the fact that they have perfect conditions during the grow season, makes them sturdier and more likely to withstand difficulties in the winter..

It can depend on the palm. Palms like Royals and Cocos you are correct. They are naturalized in Florida for a reason.

Here both Palms thrive in my yard in summer. The Cocos I tried died by end of winter due to the coldest, rainiest, and cloudiest winter I’ve had in Rancho in 11 years. So far this year is looking to be much warmer, sunnier, and drier and the coconut I tried may have had a better chance.

Palms that don’t mind a more protracted cool season like Archontophoenix do great here as even at 2100 ft elevation they usually won’t see below 30 and only for a few hours. Even Central Florida will see cold snaps into the mid 20s but with the added benefit of hitting 80 degrees as a high within a few days. Very different winter climates between the states.

[NickJames]

16 hours ago, ego said:

OK I am super intrigued. Two more questions: What were the maximum temperatures the days after the frosts? And was the soil moist/wet?

Somehow I think that plants in Florida forgive a lot more than plants in California, even when they experience the same temperatures and frost.. must be smth about Florida's weather... perhaps the fact that they have perfect conditions during the grow season, makes them sturdier and more likely to withstand difficulties in the winter..

Well, considering I ran my sprinkler last Christmas, I would estimate the soil was very moist 😁 

 

[NickJames]

16 hours ago, ego said:

OK I am super intrigued. Two more questions: What were the maximum temperatures the days after the frosts? And was the soil moist/wet?

Somehow I think that plants in Florida forgive a lot more than plants in California, even when they experience the same temperatures and frost.. must be smth about Florida's weather... perhaps the fact that they have perfect conditions during the grow season, makes them sturdier and more likely to withstand difficulties in the winter..

 

[Foxpalms]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:52 PM, James B said:

Alexandrae handles prolonged cold or cloudiness much better than Roystonea.

That said once mature many have documented in central/northern Florida Roystonea surviving short terms low temps that would probably take out any King Palm.

I agree with this, Alexandrae will grow here in a good microclimate but no chance of royal palms growing here.

[Than]

10 hours ago, NickJames said:

 

Not far from my temperatures. Btw what application/website do you get these charts from? Is it your own meteo station? 

[Foxpalms]

@ego It's wunderground.

[Palmfarmer]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:39 AM, ego said:

OK I am super intrigued. Two more questions: What were the maximum temperatures the days after the frosts? And was the soil moist/wet?

Somehow I think that plants in Florida forgive a lot more than plants in California, even when they experience the same temperatures and frost.. must be smth about Florida's weather... perhaps the fact that they have perfect conditions during the grow season, makes them sturdier and more likely to withstand difficulties in the winter..

Seems like the opposite. When I read the freeze damage treads the palms in dry climates can handle way colder tempratures

[Than]

26 minutes ago, Palmfarmer said:

Seems like the opposite. When I read the freeze damage treads the palms in dry climates can handle way colder tempratures

Mediterranean climates have wet winters

[Palmfarmer]

1 minute ago, ego said:

Mediterranean climates have wet winters

Yes in Northern regions of the Mediterranean and Northern California. 

I was thinking about the dry parts of California. 

 

[Silas_Sancona]

2 hours ago, ego said:

Mediterranean climates have wet winters

 

2 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Yes in Northern regions of the Mediterranean and Northern California. 

I was thinking about the dry parts of California. 

 

 This is correct.. One only has to look at the vegetation patterns in California to see which parts of the state are rainier in winter than others.   Further south one goes, = generally drier. 

Once you reach L.A. / San Diego, you are flirting with subtropical desert, even along the coast. Infamous Sage / Sage Brush / Laurel Sumac / other frost sensitive natives, esp. those w/ larger leaves? that grow all over the hills down there?  indicative of subtropical origin.  Why some refer to that particular habitat as " soft " or " Subtropical " Chaparral. Climate is Milder and can experience rain in the summer. 

Compare that to winter wet and cold tolerant  " hard " Chaparral ..which is the predominant type of that habitat further north, esp. north of San Francisco. Hard Chaparral is one vegetation aspect in Nor. Cal which is more reflective of the definition of true Mediterranean. 
 

2 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Seems like the opposite. When I read the freeze damage treads the palms in dry climates can handle way colder temperatures

True also, and mainly because of the drier air in which frost has a harder time forming, ..or can take longer to do so..  ..IE:  -generally speaking-  frost has an easier time forming when the air temp is at 33.1F ..in say Livermore, CA, vs. Frost formation might only start when the air temp reaches 29.7F, maybe lower, though that's really pushing it, IMO..  here in Chandler.. Higher humidity / Dew Points out there, esp. near the coast = more moisture in the air available for frost formation -under the right conditions.

Here, as has been brought up before, worst potential set up(s) for frost / freezes generally occur after it has rained enough to really soak the ground, and the air hasn't had enough time to dry out as the clouds clear out.  Back in San Jose, i could see a light coating of frost covering -everything- when the air temp was only at 35F, regardless of whether it had rained a day or two before, or it was " drier "

Remember too that it generally warms up faster here ( drier air here helps that occur too ) after a cold morning.

So yes, a Majesty Palm ...of roughly the same size, grown in both places... may withstand more cold here -before experiencing cold- related injury -   under " typical "  " chilly morning starts in the desert " scenarios.   That said, Heat and same dry air here can be it's mortal enemy come summer, lol.

[Than]

3 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 

 This is correct.. One only has to look at the vegetation patterns in California to see which parts of the state are rainier in winter than others.   Further south one goes, = generally drier. 

Once you reach L.A. / San Diego, you are flirting with subtropical desert, even along the coast. Infamous Sage / Sage Brush / Laurel Sumac / other frost sensitive natives, esp. those w/ larger leaves? that grow all over the hills down there?  indicative of subtropical origin.  Why some refer to that particular habitat as " soft " or " Subtropical " Chaparral. Climate is Milder and can experience rain in the summer. 

Compare that to winter wet and cold tolerant  " hard " Chaparral ..which is the predominant type of that habitat further north, esp. north of San Francisco. Hard Chaparral is one vegetation aspect in Nor. Cal which is more reflective of the definition of true Mediterranean. 
 

True also, and mainly because of the drier air in which frost has a harder time forming, ..or can take longer to do so..  ..IE:  -generally speaking-  frost has an easier time forming when the air temp is at 33.1F ..in say Livermore, CA, vs. Frost formation might only start when the air temp reaches 29.7F, maybe lower, though that's really pushing it, IMO..  here in Chandler.. Higher humidity / Dew Points out there, esp. near the coast = more moisture in the air available for frost formation -under the right conditions.

Here, as has been brought up before, worst potential set up(s) for frost / freezes generally occur after it has rained enough to really soak the ground, and the air hasn't had enough time to dry out as the clouds clear out.  Back in San Jose, i could see a light coating of frost covering -everything- when the air temp was only at 35F, regardless of whether it had rained a day or two before, or it was " drier "

Remember too that it generally warms up faster here ( drier air here helps that occur too ) after a cold morning.

So yes, a Majesty Palm ...of roughly the same size, grown in both places... may withstand more cold here -before experiencing cold- related injury -   under " typical "  " chilly morning starts in the desert " scenarios.   That said, Heat and same dry air here can be it's mortal enemy come summer, lol.

Just checked the weather of San José and it is indeed very similar to that of southern Greece both in terms of temperatures and rainfall.

[Silas_Sancona]

31 minutes ago, ego said:

Just checked the weather of San José and it is indeed very similar to that of southern Greece both in terms of temperatures and rainfall.

Similarities perhaps, though topography / overall land mass between the two places is quite different. You're also surrounded by water on 3 sides, and imagine all that water -in relatively close proximity- has a pretty decent influence on your overall climate,  where as California only has the Pacific to the west. 

No worries if wrong, but i'd but thought the Mediterranean / Aegean Seas are generally warmer - relatively speaking, compared to the U.S. side of the Pacific.

In California, topographical layout limits potential influence from the mild / warm-ish Gulf of CA to mainly the southern quarter of the state and mainly during the summer. Large land mass to the east influences the climate there also..  If the Central Valley ( of California ) were still a shallow and mild / warm inland sea, areas from -at least-  San Francisco south might be warmer overall then they are atm. Beaches might be as nice as those there in Greece too, lol.

[James B]

Speaking of frost my yard had 6” different of snow in February. All of these palms were covered in snow. I was out there every 30 minutes with a broom knocking snow of the leaves as it accumulated. Every single one of the Archontophoenix and Chambeyronia bounced back no problems. The only palm that has struggled since was the lone Royal. Only put out 2 leaves this year which is snails pace for a Roystonea. The absolute low was only 30 degrees all winter. That particular evening the low was only 32.

[Than]

7 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Similarities perhaps, though topography / overall land mass between the two places is quite different. You're also surrounded by water on 3 sides, and imagine all that water -in relatively close proximity- has a pretty decent influence on your overall climate,  where as California only has the Pacific to the west. 

No worries if wrong, but i'd but thought the Mediterranean / Aegean Seas are generally warmer - relatively speaking, compared to the U.S. side of the Pacific.

In California, topographical layout limits potential influence from the mild / warm-ish Gulf of CA to mainly the southern quarter of the state and mainly during the summer. Large land mass to the east influences the climate there also..  If the Central Valley ( of California ) were still a shallow and mild / warm inland sea, areas from -at least-  San Francisco south might be warmer overall then they are atm. Beaches might be as nice as those there in Greece too, lol.

You're right; for instance the sea here is warmer but Greek topography is also complex and makes things trickier. Mountains everywhere affecting the microclimates and relative proximity to Russian and Ukrainian plains means we get colder winters than Spain and Portugal for instance. Winters in coastal cities of Catalonia can be milder than in coastal Greek cities even though they are more northern. 

[Than]

3 hours ago, James B said:

Speaking of frost my yard had 6” different of snow in February. All of these palms were covered in snow. I was out there every 30 minutes with a broom knocking snow of the leaves as it accumulated. Every single one of the Archontophoenix and Chambeyronia bounced back no problems. The only palm that has struggled since was the lone Royal. Only put out 2 leaves this year which is snails pace for a Roystonea. The absolute low was only 30 degrees all winter. That particular evening the low was only 32.

I thought snow is not that damaging and can actually work as an insulator?

[Phoenikakias]

5 hours ago, ego said:

You're right; for instance the sea here is warmer but Greek topography is also complex and makes things trickier. Mountains everywhere affecting the microclimates and relative proximity to Russian and Ukrainian plains means we get colder winters than Spain and Portugal for instance. Winters in coastal cities of Catalonia can be milder than in coastal Greek cities even though they are more northern. 

 

5 hours ago, ego said:

I thought snow is not that damaging and can actually work as an insulator?

Are you joking! Coastal Cantabria has a milder winter weather than most, if not the entire,  coastal Attica! Snow when it freezes on the foliage is pure DEATH! This is the biggest trouble in Attica, the Aegean jet stream.  As polar or Siberian cold wind crosses the NARROW Aegean Sea (Adria, and east and west Mediterranean basins are way bigger), it has not enough time to rise substantially above freezing point but it carries with it all the vapors of the Mediterranean, which turn to precipitation in mainland, in first line Euboea and then Attica. Then if snow freezes at night, the effect is DEVASTATING. I would like to see a chart matching up in terms of destructiveness freezing degrees without and with frozen snow on foliage. Bear no illusions, as I have not either, most of what you see in my garden will eventually die in 10, 20 or 30 years on one single day by one single extraordinary cold spell, like the previous one in 2004 due to Aegean jet stream. It is precisely this, which you will be spared from in Messenia.

[Than]

2 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

 

Are you joking! Coastal Cantabria has a milder winter weather than most, if not the entire,  coastal Attica! Snow when it freezes on the foliage is pure DEATH! This is the biggest trouble in Attica, the Aegean jet stream.  As polar or Siberian cold wind crosses the NARROW Aegean Sea (Adria, and east and west Mediterranean basins are way bigger), it has not enough time to rise substantially above freezing point but it carries with it all the vapors of the Mediterranean, which turn to precipitation in mainland, in first line Euboea and then Attica. Then if snow freezes at night, the effect is DEVASTATING. I would like to see a chart matching up in terms of destructiveness freezing degrees without and with frozen snow on foliage. Bear no illusions, as I have not either, most of what you see in my garden will eventually die in 10, 20 or 30 years on one single day by one single extraordinary cold spell, like the previous one in 2004 due to Aegean jet stream. It is precisely this, which you will be spared from in Messenia.

That's what I said too. Cantabria must have milder winters. Don't get upset and use capital letters at your age Mr Theodoropoulos :😜 

As for snow I was talking about snow when it's still falling. Before it freezes cos our friend said he was going out to clean it every 30 min. 

How well can you clean snow anyway? I guess that a very thin layer will remain and that will freeze?

[Silas_Sancona]

11 hours ago, ego said:

I thought snow is not that damaging and can actually work as an insulator?

 

4 hours ago, ego said:

 

As for snow I was talking about snow when it's still falling. Before it freezes cos our friend said he was going out to clean it every 30 min. 

How well can you clean snow anyway? I guess that a very thin layer will remain and that will freeze?

Snow can be an excellent insulator ..if it is deep enough..  That said, two or 3 ft deep layer of snow would likely destroy any palm / other plant not adapted to handle such extra weight. 

Snow itself can vary in weight, based on it's moisture content as well..  " type " of Snow James experienced ..and what is usually seen in the foothills nearby / Tucson area at times is typically light and fluffy, ..or quite " dry ",   rather than the " wet " and sloppy variety that accumulates quickly and is quite a bit heavier.

2 or 4" of wet snow will run off as it melts..  Same amount of dry snow may result in some runoff, but, a majority of it's moisture content sublimates as it melts.

A thin layer, like what James showed, won't provide much -if any- insulation against the cold  ..being more of a trouble maker ..IE: weight of it accumulating possibly breaking fronds / any leaf covered branches / moisture seeping into... / settling around the crown / un- opened spears and causing problems if that moisture freezes..

Palms.. well, most anyway, didn't evolve in areas where they'd be covered in snow very often  -or at all, ...in the case of species / genera which grow in typically snow-less regions of the world.. 

[enigma99]

Here in NorCal, I can grow Alexandraes just fine. It doesn't get too much below 30F usually. 

But any Archontophoenix is COOL hardy. So even if a good size Royal is more cold hardy, makes it a challenge to grow at my location. We need more warm days

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by enigma99

[Than]

36 minutes ago, enigma99 said:

Here in NorCal, I can grow Alexandraes just fine. It doesn't get too much below 30F usually. 

But any Archontophoenix is COOL hardy. So even if a good size Royal is more cold hardy, makes it a challenge to grow at my location. We need more warm days

 

do you also get frosts?

[NickJames]

I wanted to revisit another topic about my royals. 

I would say that my average annual temperature is pretty high, if that matters.

While I definitely do get bad radiational cooling, I am in a scrub sandhill area. Of course, I irrigate it in order to have tropical and subtropical plants instead of just scrub plants. But this areas gets VERY hot compared to the coast. In addition, I heat up in the spring very quickly. It could be 75 in Daytona Beach but 90 here.