Windmill & needle

[Colin1110082]

Hello! As I said on another thread I just ordered a parlor palm for the inside of my house. This spring I might plant outside either a needle or windmill. I heard needle can survive up to -15 degrees with minimal protection. -15 to -5 is usually around the record for coldest day each winter where I live in northern mass. I have two questions. I have a few protected areas where they could go. But anyways, 1. Which one do you think would be easier to care for? I would assume the needle but the problem is is that they get massive and the spaces I have are probably about maybe 3x3 feet for each slot. Can I trim or prune it to limit growth? Also for the windmill that’s the same thing. I don’t want a tall palm maybe I would want it to cap off at around 5 feet tall to make it easier to protect so is there anyways I could trim the top such as cutting the middle growth to stop it from growing? I prefer the windmill over needle for looks but I just want something easy to care for that I can stunt 

[Allen]

48 minutes ago, Colin1110082 said:

Hello! As I said on another thread I just ordered a parlor palm for the inside of my house. This spring I might plant outside either a needle or windmill. I heard needle can survive up to -15 degrees with minimal protection. -15 to -5 is usually around the record for coldest day each winter where I live in northern mass. I have two questions. I have a few protected areas where they could go. But anyways, 1. Which one do you think would be easier to care for? I would assume the needle but the problem is is that they get massive and the spaces I have are probably about maybe 3x3 feet for each slot. Can I trim or prune it to limit growth? Also for the windmill that’s the same thing. I don’t want a tall palm maybe I would want it to cap off at around 5 feet tall to make it easier to protect so is there anyways I could trim the top such as cutting the middle growth to stop it from growing? I prefer the windmill over needle for looks but I just want something easy to care for that I can stunt 

It would help if you would put your exact location and a photo of the spot you plan to plant them.  N Mass ranges from zone 5a to 7b on the map I am looking at.  The needle will need to be protected till larger for 2-3 years and the windmill likely protected every winter.  There is no good way to stunt the growth besides not watering/fertilizing and you wouldn't want to weaken a palm in a marginal growing zone.  A windmill has fronds averaging 3-4' or a total width of approx. 6-8 feet and a needle will stay within 4'x4' for a few years but can get much larger over 5-15 years

Edited December 14, 2023 by Allen

[SeanK]

I would grow both in pots for two more winters. Windmills will take a lot of cold their first seedling year, but then suffer spear pull until they develop a trunk.

[Colin1110082]

Tomorrow I will take images of the places it is dark now. I would just like a small windmill or needle. Nothing big. Can you trim these with pliers? I am zone 6A

Just would be nice to have a small trachy or needle in my yard. Windmill size is not really a problem in width. Small height is fine because the width of the windmill is off the ground. Needles as you know aren’t tall but they sprawl out across the ground instead while windmills are elevated. I would think since it’s somewhat small at least 8 ft or under in my climate 

[steve617]

The windmill will need more protection. I recommend not planting them in ground until they outgrow a 7 gallon pot.  They are hardier as they get older. I would recommend looking into sabal minors. They are also Trachycarpus Wagnerianus which is very similar to the windmill, however they are slightly less hardy. Sabal Louisiana or Brazoria would also be a good choice.  Check out Allen's videos on YouTube Tn Tropics. He has some great videos as well. Also you don't want to trim them. Only thing you won't to trim are the dead fronds. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by steve617

[BeyondTheGarden]

Needle suits your size and zone much better.  I would 100% go with a (EDIT:)windmill needle based off of your zone alone, but the size is a reinforcing reason. 

They don't have to get wide, you can easily trim off the suckers.  I recently acquired a few needles that had been in 7 gallon pots and neglected for years. Of interest is the size of the rootball as you can sew on the last two pictures.  A foot of trunk and 4 or 5 inches of soil/roots. 

Sorry for the night pics. 

 

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Colin1110082 said:

Tomorrow I will take images of the places it is dark now. I would just like a small windmill or needle. Nothing big. Can you trim these with pliers? I am zone 6A

Just would be nice to have a small trachy or needle in my yard. Windmill size is not really a problem in width. Small height is fine because the width of the windmill is off the ground. Needles as you know aren’t tall but they sprawl out across the ground instead while windmills are elevated. I would think since it’s somewhat small at least 8 ft or under in my climate 

Is this 6A on the 2023 map or the 2012 map?  Either way you are pushing it and Steve's advice to look into a Sabal minor is solid.  Likely all of them may need some protection in your area though.   The windmill will need to be boxed in every year for sure and the needle and S. minor even are pushing it 

[BeyondTheGarden]

Another advantage of the needle is that it will be easier to box in.  There are lots of stories of guys who zone-push and protect their palms for several years, only to have to watch them freeze to death once they get so big that it's no longer feasable to rig up boxes or plastic or whatever. 

[Colin1110082]

I have seen needle in the area on the cape but what is the minimal temp an unprotected S. minor can take? I’ve seen needle can take -5 Fahrenheit to -15 Fahrenheit unprotected or with minimal protection and receive little to no damage. I saw a video about windmill. it can apparently take minimum 8 degrees Fahrenheit I believe. Sabal minor looks like a needle but with a visible trunk and looks like it has larger fronds. I don’t think I would want a waggy or any other trachycarpus besides fortunei. Yes for the first year or two of their life they would probably be potted and brought indoors in the winter until they get going. Who knows if I get a set of a few seedlings I might pop one in the ground to see what happens. I have seen this on youtube before people doing this. I would most likely buy seedlings that are a year to three years so they are already a decent size and are already somewhat established.

That is an interesting map of sabal minor

[Colin1110082]

5 minutes ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

Another advantage of the needle is that it will be easier to box in.  There are lots of stories of guys who zone-push and protect their palms for several years, only to have to watch them freeze to death once they get so big that it's no longer feasable to rig up boxes or plastic or whatever. 

See I would think that needle would be harder since they grow horizontally not vertically. At least from what i’ve seen in images of ‘zone pushing’ windmills, the crowns seem relatively small and weak compared to those down in Florida, Cali or the Carolinas. I would just need to confirm that I can limit growth of a needle by cutting fronds but it seems a few people said no so I will take their word on it. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

2 minutes ago, Colin1110082 said:

I have seen needle in the area on the cape but what is the minimal temp an unprotected S. minor can take? I’ve seen needle can take -5 Fahrenheit to -15 Fahrenheit unprotected or with minimal protection and receive little to no damage. I saw a video about windmill. it can apparently take minimum 8 degrees Fahrenheit I believe.....

Unfortunately you can't just attach a number.  They can die at greater than 8f, or much lower than 8f.  It depends on a host of circumstances.  Normally, the only people who say "hardy to ____ (fill in the blank) are people who are trying to make a sale. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

3 minutes ago, Colin1110082 said:

See I would think that needle would be harder since they grow horizontally not vertically. At least from what i’ve seen in images of ‘zone pushing’ windmills, the crowns seem relatively small and weak compared to those down in Florida, Cali or the Carolinas. I would just need to confirm that I can limit growth of a needle by cutting fronds but it seems a few people said no so I will take their word on it. 

They do not grow horizontal.  You can keep them small by pruning, that is what I was trying to say in the earlier post. 

[Colin1110082]

In that case i’ll give the needle a go in the spring time. Like I said tomorrow I can post images of a few plots of land where it would go. Thank you for the help 😃 

[steve617]

Needles are a great choice but sabal minors thou can have large fronds usually don't get larger than 3 to 6 feet and don't have a trunk unless you get a larger variety like a Louisiana. The downside to the minors some can be very slow growing. They are also the most cold hardy besides the needle palm. 

[MAPalms]

Welcome! It’s nice to have other Mass growers on here! I’m south of Boston, so my climate is a little warmer due to the ocean but I think you could pull off a palm if you give it enough care. You can grow anything if you give it enough care/protection, and if you are willing to live with the possibility of your palm dying in an extreme winter event. I’ve tried both trachys and needles, and needles are by far the better choice for our climate, at least from what I’ve seen. I’ve had trachys spear pull on me. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done in our climate, but it might just take multiple attempts. My needle palm was planted in July, and it already has put out 4 pups and a few new leaves. It’s doing well. My needle’s trunk:

Northeast Ohio Palms sells some good plants of both species, whichever you choose. Hope the advice helps!

Edited December 15, 2023 by MAPalms

[MattInRaleigh]

9 hours ago, MAPalms said:

Welcome! It’s nice to have other Mass growers on here! I’m south of Boston, so my climate is a little warmer due to the ocean but I think you could pull off a palm if you give it enough care. You can grow anything if you give it enough care/protection, and if you are willing to live with the possibility of your palm dying in an extreme winter event. I’ve tried both trachys and needles, and needles are by far the better choice for our climate, at least from what I’ve seen. I’ve had trachys spear pull on me. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done in our climate, but it might just take multiple attempts. My needle palm was planted in July, and it already has put out 4 pups and a few new leaves. It’s doing well. My needle’s trunk:

Northeast Ohio Palms sells some good plants of both species, whichever you choose. Hope the advice helps!

Have you tried sabal minor in your area? If so, have you had to protect it or has it gotten damaged from the cold?

[Colin1110082]

Sabal minor looks a lot cooler than needle but needle is easier to grow here from what I’ve seen.  Where is the northern most place in the eastern us that a trunked palm can grow with no protection?

[ChicagoPalma]

Sabal minor I recommend, needle is okay but wet winters can kill it off easily with just fungus. From what I've seen in southern illinois, and st louis, sabal minor is what everyone goes for. I don't see a needle in sight there.

[jwitt]

38 minutes ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Sabal minor I recommend, needle is okay but wet winters can kill it off easily with just fungus. From what I've seen in southern illinois, and st louis, sabal minor is what everyone goes for. I don't see a needle in sight there

Beautiful, established, large needles posted here on palmtalk in Illinois, just east of St Louis.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by jwitt
Added link

[SeanK]

21 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Beautiful, established, large needles posted here on palmtalk in Illinois, just east of St Louis.

 

 

 

 

Story refers to Washington DC

[Colin1110082]

Alright then. I just am afraid sabal minor will die cause of the cold. You know I can try a sabal minor and a needle both and see what happens. Anyways as promised yesterday here are a few pictures of places it could go

 Image 9295 is probably the most protected spot. The house is about 10 feet the opposite direction this picture is facing. The fences around it are about 6 ft. Problem is there might not be much sunlight here

image  9294 is behind my shed and it had protection from winds coming from the west, and minor protection from winds coming from the south and east. Also might not be much sunlight 

image 9290,1, and 3 are about the same. Both would get equal sunlight and would have protection from my house. The fence is also about 15 feet opposite of the direction the camera is facing also. They would get a decent amount of sunlight and have protection from pretty much all directions, but winds coming from the west might not be as strong. 1 might not receive as much sunlight

finally image 9292 is behind my house. This would have protection from winds coming from the south and west and have minor protection from winds coming from the north. This would have sunlight mostly in the morning until noon

[Colin1110082]

Also someone mentioned needle palms in wet winters don’t they make fungicides for plants like that?

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

Story refers to Washington DC

Read the last post, complete with photos.

Smithton Illinois 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by jwitt

[SeanK]

3 hours ago, jwitt said:

Read the last post, complete with photos.

Smithton Illinois 

 

OK, I saw it this time. I wonder how it's doing and what size it was planted? A lot of leaf burn in a true z6b

[jwitt]

Those pics are from 2018 and -6f.  Survived -15f, never protected!

[Colin1110082]

I have been researching a little bit on Sabal palmetto and these guys seem pretty big. Are there any smaller subspecies of it that could live in 6a?

[Colin1110082]

8 hours ago, Colin1110082 said:

I have been researching a little bit on Sabal palmetto and these guys seem pretty big. Are there any smaller subspecies of it that could live in 6a?

Not palmetto I meant the minor

[steve617]

I have a friend around the Cincinnati area has lots of sabal minors,  as far as I know he don't protect. However he's a very experienced grower. He also has a friend who has a couple fairly large sabal minor Louisiana.  They are minors that only gets 2 or 3 feet and some that could get 10 feet or more. The minors are pretty cold hardy. They are native in Arkansas, Alabama, Georgia, s car, Fla, TX and several other states, they are some almost as far north as Atlanta. Thou was planted in the early 60s there's a stand of them east of Nashville. Just have to be patient. TN Tropics on YouTube is in the Nashville area he has a couple great videos on Sabal minors.

[Colin1110082]

53 minutes ago, steve617 said:

I have a friend around the Cincinnati area has lots of sabal minors,  as far as I know he don't protect. However he's a very experienced grower. He also has a friend who has a couple fairly large sabal minor Louisiana.  They are minors that only gets 2 or 3 feet and some that could get 10 feet or more. The minors are pretty cold hardy. They are native in Arkansas, Alabama, Georgia, s car, Fla, TX and several other states, they are some almost as far north as Atlanta. Thou was planted in the early 60s there's a stand of them east of Nashville. Just have to be patient. TN Tropics on YouTube is in the Nashville area he has a couple great videos on Sabal minors.

I have watched TN tropics before. Do you or anyone know what species of sabal minor stays around 2 or 3 ft in size?

[steve617]

21 minutes ago, Colin1110082 said:

I have watched TN tropics before. Do you or anyone know what species of sabal minor stays around 2 or 3 ft in size?

Sabal Minor Blountstown I think get about 18 inches. I'm raising some from TX that suppose to get only about 3 ft. Also sabal minor from Baker County fla. is fairly small. Probably in that 3 ft range but im not certain. Mccurtain is probably in that 3 to 4 ft range. The one thing those small ones like Mccurtain may take 10 yrs to max out. Those smaller minors can be very slow growing.  

[steve617]

33 minutes ago, Colin1110082 said:

I have watched TN tropics before. Do you or anyone know what species of sabal minor stays around 2 or 3 ft in size?

I have about 20 or more 6 month old seedlings from the minor from Austin TX and he said they are very cold hardy and even though the pics looks larger they are less than 3 ft tall. Here is the pic of the mother plant. 

[Colin1110082]

Honestly I would play it safe with the needle. I would just need to find one because I guess they are rare. I would also buy a windmill just to try it. I guess they stay around 15 ft or lower in areas like this.

[Leelanau Palms]

On 3/18/2023 at 4:52 PM, kbob11 said:

Uncovered both palms today.  They both experienced -11f -35F windchill this winter which is the coldest by far.  Needle with only dry leaves and a wood box 100% unphased!  Windmill with heat lamps took about 50-60% damage.  At its coldest the windmill hit 0f inside the box.  Crazy winter…

Master protection thread has posts from this gentleman who I believe is from Massachusetts with one each of needle and trachy.

[Colin1110082]

4 hours ago, Leelanau Palms said:

Master protection thread has posts from this gentleman who I believe is from Massachusetts with one each of needle and trachy.

Any opinions from yourself or others on Yucca trees or shrubs? I live about 25 minutes from Sailsbury beach our local beach and there are a few small Yucca shrubs I have not seen any Yucca trees but I guess from my research they are as hardy maybe a little less as the needle palm

[MAPalms]

On 12/15/2023 at 7:29 AM, MattInRaleigh said:

Have you tried sabal minor in your area? If so, have you had to protect it or has it gotten damaged from the cold?

Yes. One was unfortunately killed by a landscaper on accident a few years ago. I have three outside in pots right now. But like others are saying, Sabal minor might be a good pick too.

14 hours ago, Colin1110082 said:

Not palmetto I meant the minor

I do know dwarf Sabal minor forms exist. Those might be worth looking into. Though not palms, if you want to fill space in between palms or want a trunking tropical plant yuccas work great in our region. Yucca rostrata is trunking and some gardeners in our area have had success.

[MAPalms]

Yuccas are great species for our climate. They are pretty common to find in local nurseries and garden centers. There are many varieties to choose from, depending on what you’d like. Most are hardy to our area. I’d recommend filamentosa or flaccida. Those two grow like weeds in southern MA. Tim’s Zone Pushing Garden on YouTube might be worth a watch if you’d like some ideas for local tropical gardening.

[Colin1110082]

57 minutes ago, MAPalms said:

Yuccas are great species for our climate. They are pretty common to find in local nurseries and garden centers. There are many varieties to choose from, depending on what you’d like. Most are hardy to our area. I’d recommend filamentosa or flaccida. Those two grow like weeds in southern MA. Tim’s Zone Pushing Garden on YouTube might be worth a watch if you’d like some ideas for local tropical gardening.

Can you cut the flower stem of the Yucca I don’t want the flower petals to blow just in case my dog gets any because they are poisonous to dogs.

i have a vizsla sports dog from Hungary 

[MAPalms]

13 hours ago, Colin1110082 said:

Can you cut the flower stem of the Yucca I don’t want the flower petals to blow just in case my dog gets any because they are poisonous to dogs.

i have a vizsla sports dog from Hungary

Yes. That’s perfectly fine. I’ve done it before, and it helps the plant if anything. 

[Allen]

On 12/16/2023 at 6:53 AM, Colin1110082 said:

Not palmetto I meant the minor

The regular size Sabal minor like 'McCurtain' or any normal Sabal minor would fit fine in those areas.

Here is my Sabal playlist

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpVDrk5W7jTeHhCY_FYW1VHQbdVkRYwbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8scdZ6Ltlz8&list=PLpVDrk5W7jTeHhCY_FYW1VHQbdVkRYwbQ&index=15

 

[Colin1110082]

4 hours ago, Allen said:

The regular size Sabal minor like 'McCurtain' or any normal Sabal minor would fit fine in those areas.

Here is my Sabal playlist

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpVDrk5W7jTeHhCY_FYW1VHQbdVkRYwbQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8scdZ6Ltlz8&list=PLpVDrk5W7jTeHhCY_FYW1VHQbdVkRYwbQ&index=15

 

Your probably right. They just seem so big like yours seem humongous. Yes your not the first person that I have heard say mccurtain is the best size. Where would I buy a sabal minor mccurtain? 

This spring I plan on planting a Yucca, A needle palm, and a sabal minor. Eventually a trachycarpus fortunei but that would come later on. I would love to get a small tropical set up going. I love plants