Pseudophoenix vinifera

[aztropic]

While its brother sargentii has become more popular over the years due to its ease of (slow) growth and adaptability , vinifera has still been somewhat of a rarity in most USA palmtalker gardens,and for good reason. Few growers even bother to attempt to produce these for sale,which makes sourcing one an adventure in futility.  Also, they seem to be more cold sensitive in my experience,so growing one outside of south Florida really is a zone push for other areas of the country where palms are commonly grown.

I have grown this species from seed only one time,and was successful in raising the seedlings, 2 to 3 feet tall in 1 gallon pots,but failed to ever have one survive more than 2 years after being planted out into my own yard. After killing at least a dozen of them in various in ground exposures, I made one last attempt,and brought in a 15 gallon plant from Florida.  This tree actually has had moderate success; planted in my desert climate about 15 years ago. Slow to establish,it finally looks to have hit its stride,and may turn out to be a long term success,after all. Curious if anyone else has had experiences, good or bad, with this Dominican Republic native species? 🤔  

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Chris WCT]

Hi Scott 
 

Wow!!! I would say you found a happy place for this one. Looks amazing. 
 

I have a few seedlings, that need a couple years before I put in the ground here in St Pete. 
 

Best 

Chris 

[Looking Glass]

Looking great there.   You don’t see these very often, for sure.   Caribbean Palms Nursery down here had a bunch of these for sale last time I was there.  

How does this one stack up against Sargentii for ya?  I see big growth rings on these, but they are said to be slower, so it must take them a while to make a frond.   I can get maybe 3.5 fronds a year, at most, out of Sargentii down here, pushing them under ideal conditions.  They are also just as susceptible, to “Pseudophoenix decline” in our climate here.  Though it might be that they are effected less severely. 

[aztropic]

17 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

Looking great there.   You don’t see these very often, for sure.  How does this one stack up against Sargentii for ya?  I see big growth rings on these, but they are said to be slower, so it must take them a while to make a frond.   I can get maybe 3.5 fronds a year, at most, out of Sargentii

Definitely a little slower than sargentii for me. Vinifera now produces about 1.5 fronds a year for me. Until recently,1 frond a year was it. Trunking sargentii give me about 3 fronds a year. Overall, sargentii is an easier grow in the desert,and the only one of the genus I recommend for desert gardens.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Looking Glass]

1 hour ago, aztropic said:

Definitely a little slower than sargentii for me. Vinifera now produces about 1.5 fronds a year for me. Until recently,1 frond a year was it. Trunking sargentii give me about 3 fronds a year. Overall, sargentii is an easier grow in the desert,and the only one of the genus I recommend for desert gardens.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

I thought about picking one or two of these up, but so far they seem to become bigger than the spots I have available at the moment.   Also, in the back of my mind, I worry about Pseudopheonix decline here, and I already have 7 Sargentii, and I don't want to find myself wiped out one day from too many of this genus.  Just glancing through stuff, it doesn't take hold until the palms are about 12 years old, but affects ~70% of the population, and you can't presume things for the rarer species of the genus due to limited numbers to observe, though last I saw, with limited case numbers, it seemed to perhaps be more mild in Vinifera.   Overall, this is one of my favorite genus of palms still.  

I look at that light brown area on yours and in our mush-mush weather here, that would be black and probably Stage/Grade 1 decline.   I think your dryness prevents it from ever occurring though.  A great advantage for these in the desert.     

How's the sun tolerance for these for you?   Sargentii can take, and prefers, all day sun in the open in Florida (not your desert sun, and a wet-heat here instead).   I always thought Vinifera was a bit less of a sun lover, though not a sun wimp per se.    The trunk and crown of these are super nice though.  Really accents the bluish green and powder.  

[aztropic]

As far as 'Pseudophoenix decline', I know it is a real thing in Florida,but strangely,I have never seen it manifest in other native populations I've visited in Cuba, Bahamas, or the Dominican Republic. Never seen it here either in the desert. Just sprayed a hose on the dark patch on my vinifera,and it was just dirt and debris buildup trapped behind the old frond. No rot though. Washes right off.

Although mine is currently in shady conditions due to its surroundings,I believe these could be a full sun palm in the desert at this larger size. Suspect it would probably produce more wax on the fronds and trunk to protect itself.

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[carmel]

There are plenty of Viniferas here in Florida of all sizes, there is no problem purchasing one, in all sizes.

[aztropic]

33 minutes ago, carmel said:

There are plenty of Viniferas here in Florida of all sizes, there is no problem purchasing one, in all sizes.

So why are they so rarely planted or featured in anyone's garden? Lots of people have a sargentii or 2 planted in their gardens and we hear about them rather frequently, but when it comes to any of the other 3 species of pseudophoenix,it's crickets as far as discussing them goes... 🤷‍♂️ 

I also grow Pseudophoenix ekmanii in my garden,but it is another species that almost never comes up in a discussion. Wonder why? 🤔 Are they available for purchase in any size at every garden center or big box store too?

Hopefully,YOU can post a few pictures of these common viniferas to add to the discussion. We'd love to see them. Just saying that you can buy one anywhere at any size doesn't make it true...

 

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

[Looking Glass]

5 hours ago, aztropic said:

As far as 'Pseudophoenix decline', I know it is a real thing in Florida,but strangely,I have never seen it manifest in other native populations I've visited in Cuba, Bahamas, or the Dominican Republic. Never seen it here either in the desert. Just sprayed a hose on the dark patch on my vinifera,and it was just dirt and debris buildup trapped behind the old frond. No rot though. Washes right off.

Although mine is currently in shady conditions due to its surroundings,I believe these could be a full sun palm in the desert at this larger size. Suspect it would probably produce more wax on the fronds and trunk to protect itself.

aztropic

Mesa, Arizona 

 

 I don’t think you’ll ever see it there, and I’d bet it has to do with the dry climate.   I’m hoping that baking these in intense sun here help, but who knows.  They always get that dried out brown part on the oldest leaf sheath…. When it rains a lot here, it will get mildewy and black and stay that way.  It seems to become very pronounced in the rainy season.  Stage 1 starts in that area and progresses in some specimens.  There seems to be an association with moisture, but no one knows for sure if it’s viral or fungal or something else.   It sure would be nice to know the true cause, as it wipes out so many here.  Here is a pic of a wild Sargenti in the Bahamas that has it, advanced….

It’s an interesting phenomenon.   It’s so common, that I wonder if the early stages have come to be regarded as the normal appearance the older Sargentii at this point, around here.  

“The Decline” is super-interesting to me.  Is it viral, fungal, nutritional, or environmental?  
This one at a friend’s is hard to see, but has it…

in this photo of 4 local Sargentii…  One has become a dead pole since I last saw it, and two have it…

I don’t know why you don’t see more Vinifera around here, but I bet it just has to do with it being a slow, expensive, collectors palm.  Too bad…  they are pretty handsome.  I think after thinking about this thread, I’ll pick up a couple little Viniferas and find a good spot for them.  

[Looking Glass]

4 hours ago, aztropic said:

So why are they so rarely planted or featured in anyone's garden? Lots of people have a sargentii or 2 planted in their gardens and we hear about them rather frequently, but when it comes to any of the other 3 species of pseudophoenix,it's crickets as far as discussing them goes... 🤷‍♂️ 

I also grow Pseudophoenix ekmanii in my garden,but it is another species that almost never comes up in a discussion. Wonder why? 🤔 Are they available for purchase in any size at every garden center or big box store too? 

I think no ones grows this one, because no has figured out how grow them.  You’ve been to where these grow naturally, if I remember…. Perhaps the desert is the best place try to grow these….  I guess you’ll find out.   If I were trying Ekmanii here, I think I’d plant it on top of a 6 foot tall pile of crushed limestone with no dirt!  

Edited December 30, 2023 by Looking Glass

[Fishinsteeg234]

Here’s a Pseudophoenix (vinifera I believe?) that caught my attention this past spring at Hawk’s Cay resort in the Florida Keys. It kind of shows some signs of the black “sooty mold-like” beginnings of the decline, but overall the tree appeared to be quite healthy. Living under some light shade of a few nearby coco’s, and most likely receiving some resort fed irrigation. 
 

 

[carmel]

Here you go, some nice ones in Homestead Florida.

[flplantguy]

Last time I was on plant ant there was one grower. I guess you found him lol.  Plenty of sargentii but I have never seen one sitting around for sale here, so if by "Florida" you mean Miami then sure they can be found.  Our code here is ten feet of clear trunk at planting, how many of those have you seen?

[carmel]

 

 

[D. Morrowii]

I bought a couple from Floribunda in May that look like this. So slow. I’ll try to remember to update in 10 years when they go pinnate…if they survive…

[Looking Glass]

2 hours ago, carmel said:

 

 

That’s quite a place!  You don’t see that many places.  What’s the story?  Nice collection of old Cuban/Caribbean stuff.   Are all of those Vinifera or some Lediniana?  

[carmel]

I believe they are all Vinifera 

[WaianaeCrider]

Mine is about 18 years old and doing great along side my lily pond which I know leaks.  It's VERY HAPPY here  This picture is about 2 years old.  It's full of flowers and fruit again and the BEEs LOVE IT.

I just hope the coconut rhinosauris beetle does not like it's looks/smell/whatever attracts them.  I have seen them about 700 feet from my property line in two directions.

 

[aztropic]

I did visit this species in habitat - Azua, Dominican Republic. Noticed that they have an interesting habit of penciling down their growth at full maturity,before death. Pseudophoenix ekmanii also exhibits this same phenominum.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

[flplantguy]

I have yet to see one for SALE at a large size as claimed (for sale at all sizes). It's an endangered species so let's not pretend people's gardens with older plants in one spot is a large population readily available. They can be found but it is not easy or plentiful and hardly in all sizes AVAILABLE FOR SALE in the US as the original statement further up thread was. And I have yet to see them all over the state, so no they are not "readily available" just grown near a few people close to the source in Similar climates. Readily available in all sizes in my profession means I could get it easily for a project in whatever size I want (within reason). That is simply not the case with MANY palm species, not just this one.  Those kind of statements make people on the "outside" believe these plants have a secure future. Maybe some do, but let's not give ammo to those that believe plants are here for exploitation and gain alone.  Sorry for the soapbox but that is a huge pet peeve of mine.

[carmel]

65 gallon is that large enough, and I'm sure there is nurseries that probably have them field grown here in South Florida, excuse the confusion. I don't know how the secure future comes into play here, but in South Florida the future is secure. So there is no need for exploitation. Currently on Plantant there is about 10 nurseries that carry this palm, and its been that way for several years.