Sabal Palmetto Siting

[MAPalms]

Hey Palmtalk! What do you think about this spot for my potted Sabal palmetto to be planted come spring time?

This location is south facing up against my house. Full sun all year round. It can get pretty hot in this spot, over 100F many days in the soil and rocks. My grasses have gotten burnt here. Will this fry the palmetto’s roots? The rocks radiate heat in the summer and winter. The soil beneath is sandy, typical of pine forests. Full protection from wind as well as overhead protection from frost. I’m willing to protect it during extreme cold snaps.

[RFun]

11 minutes ago, MAPalms said:

Hey Palmtalk! What do you think about this spot for my potted Sabal palmetto to be planted come spring time?

This location is south facing up against my house. Full sun all year round. It can get pretty hot in this spot, over 100F many days in the soil and rocks. My grasses have gotten burnt here. Will this fry the palmetto’s roots? The rocks radiate heat in the summer and winter. The soil beneath is sandy, typical of pine forests. Full protection from wind as well as overhead protection from frost. I’m willing to protect it during extreme cold snaps.

Looks and sounds good.  Nice, confined space to work with.  Best to keep it as simple as possible.  Going to have to bring out some "warm coffee" for it once in a while lol.  You could also go with a Sabal minor/hybrid as they are easier to work with when they are older.  Expect a slower growth rate there, of course.

Edited December 29, 2023 by RFun

[teddytn]

That is definitely the best place for it. Don’t have to worry about palm roots getting fried there. There’s an uncountable number of palmettos planted in Florida in the same situation and they’re good with it.  Whats the normal lowest lows you see in a winter, just curious? 

[Dwarf Fan]

10 hours ago, teddytn said:

That is definitely the best place for it. Don’t have to worry about palm roots getting fried there. There’s an uncountable number of palmettos planted in Florida in the same situation and they’re good with it.  Whats the normal lowest lows you see in a winter, just curious? 

My notes say 10F-15F is the approximate cold hardiness tolerance on a Sabal Palmetto, don’t y’all get below freezing in MA?

[MAPalms]

20 hours ago, RFun said:

Looks and sounds good.  Nice, confined space to work with.  Best to keep it as simple as possible.  Going to have to bring out some "warm coffee" for it once in a while lol.  You could also go with a Sabal minor/hybrid as they are easier to work with when they are older.  Expect a slower growth rate there, of course.

Thanks, I’ve got some minors for next spring too! Just fun to experiment sometimes. I saw the success of a palmetto in Connecticut and figured why not. Here’s the palmetto in Connecticut if you’re interested:

 

[MAPalms]

 

21 hours ago, teddytn said:

Whats the normal lowest lows you see in a winter, just curious? 

Average is about 3-6 degrees Fahrenheit for lowest temperature all winter. That’s usually just in one arctic vortex though. Some winters are zone 6, some are zone 8. Averaged out they get zone 7. Some plants like yuccas, canna lilies, bamboo, and magnolias are pretty popular in my area and survive every year. I’m willing to protect the palm during bad events a few times a year. The location is in a microclimate though. I’m also not sure if this would help, but it’s just feet away from a pool that heats up very fast and stays warm at night during the months it’s open (April-October). I’ve heard palmettos grow faster with warm nights, so maybe that could help too.

11 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

My notes say 10F-15F is the approximate cold hardiness tolerance on a Sabal Palmetto, don’t y’all get below freezing in MA?

Yeah it does get below freezing. 10-15F isn’t very common over the course of the winter. The days with a low that temperature and below is enough to count on your hands. Massachusetts is a very varied state with different climates, especially considering elevation and coastlines. The high western parts of the state support spruce forests on mountains, the low southeastern part has natural communities that support yuccas and Opuntia.

[N8ALLRIGHT]

23 hours ago, MAPalms said:

Hey Palmtalk! What do you think about this spot for my potted Sabal palmetto to be planted come spring time?

This location is south facing up against my house. Full sun all year round. It can get pretty hot in this spot, over 100F many days in the soil and rocks. My grasses have gotten burnt here. Will this fry the palmetto’s roots? The rocks radiate heat in the summer and winter. The soil beneath is sandy, typical of pine forests. Full protection from wind as well as overhead protection from frost. I’m willing to protect it during extreme cold snaps.

Spot looks good  is your palmetto from a known source? Preferably like the Bald Head Island or Tifton hardy,or possibly some of the DFW 21 survivors. It seems these varieties might give you a couple of extra degrees in hardiness.

[MAPalms]

1 hour ago, N8ALLRIGHT said:

Spot looks good  is your palmetto from a known source? Preferably like the Bald Head Island or Tifton hardy,or possibly some of the DFW 21 survivors. It seems these varieties might give you a couple of extra degrees in hardiness.

It’s from a nursery in the zone 8 panhandle. I’m not sure what particular variety it is.

[WSimpson]

Looks like a good spot but don't let it go through what I had in 2018 here in so-called 8A NC . It was a record cold snap here . A 100 year event according to Gary Holler ( I had no snow on the ground ) :

                      High                      Low

12/29/2017        50F                        32F

12/30              37F                        23F

12/31               45F                        20F

So far no problem for a Palmetto :

------------------------------------------------Too much for 2 of my 3 Palmettos below :

1/01/2018       26F                          13F

1/02                 30F                           9F

1/03                 30F                           14F

1/04                 28F                            16F

1/05                 29F                           10F

1/06                 26F                            8F

1/07                 28F                            7F

____________________________________________Finally out of the woods :

1/08                 43                             19F

1/09                  63F                          32F 

 

Will

Edited December 30, 2023 by Will Simpson

[MAPalms]

29 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

Looks like a good spot but don't let it go through what I had in 2018 here in so-called 8A NC . It was a record cold snap here . A 100 year event according to Gary Holler :

                      High                      Low

12/29/2017        50F                        32F

12/30              37F                        23F

12/31               45F                        20F

So far no problem for a Palmetto :

------------------------------------------------Too much for 2 of my 3 Palmettos below :

1/01/2018       26F                          13F

1/02                 30F                           9F

1/03                 30F                           14F

1/04                 28F                            16F

1/05                 29F                           10F

1/06                 26F                            8F

1/07                 28F                            7F

____________________________________________Finally out of the woods :

1/08                 43                             19F

1/09                  63F                          32F 

 

Will

What happened to your palmettos? Did any of them die? 

[Colin1110082]

Just went on a trip to Hartford, I saw at least 30 yucca all over the place. I visited my grandfather and family and he has a small potted yucca near his pool. Above ground and covered. So far coldest we got in our part of massachusetts was 18 degrees fahrenheit. Right now it’s about 40 degrees. I would love to see a palm tree in our state, in particular inland. Like I said, I see yucca a lot and maybe a few needles on the cape, but I have never seen a trunking palm here. 

[Colin1110082]

I’m just excited for the spring to plant tropicals in my yard. I have maybe 3 available south facing plots of land but I also have a east facing plot but it is protected in pretty much all directions besides the east. I have been studying information about the Musa Basjoo banana and I guess you bubble wrap the stumps they leave in the winter and they grow full size by july-august. I know I am doing a windmill because those are so so easy to get, while needle is a little harder. Sabal minor is in the middle. Any places where I can get a cheaper but sizeable needle palm?

[RFun]

14 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

My notes say 10F-15F is the approximate cold hardiness tolerance on a Sabal Palmetto, don’t y’all get below freezing in MA?

Nah, hardier than that.  Remember that areas like Wilmington, NC have seen 0F.  There's no shortage of Sabal Palmettos there.  Of course, the ones sourced from Florida are likely not going to be as hardy.  More about length of cold than anything.  But again, not the hardest palm to protect when needed.  Remember, you could be working with a Mexican Fan Palm lol.

Edited December 30, 2023 by RFun

[Colin1110082]

Sabal Palmetto are cool trees, a lot of people don’t like the Virginia Beach variants  because the foliage at the top is very thin and small due to the northern latitude though occasionally you see a few full ones. Honestly, I don’t hate them, they don’t look bad. Thinner palms like those sabals I mentioned and windmill palms are actually kind of unique in my opinion. Windmills are nice because they are small and thin, a good size for an ornamental tree like that. I have a relative in Florida who had a few sabals but he got them removed because he said they attract snakes, bees, and the seeds stain the sidewalk. This is what he said, though, but still lovely trees

[Leelanau Palms]

32 minutes ago, Colin1110082 said:

I’m just excited for the spring to plant tropicals in my yard. I have maybe 3 available south facing plots of land but I also have a east facing plot but it is protected in pretty much all directions besides the east. I have been studying information about the Musa Basjoo banana and I guess you bubble wrap the stumps they leave in the winter and they grow full size by july-august. I know I am doing a windmill because those are so so easy to get, while needle is a little harder. Sabal minor is in the middle. Any places where I can get a cheaper but sizeable needle palm?

Northeast Ohio palms on their website and Brighter Blooms on Amazon. You can see pics of mine on the Cold Hardy thread "So Far So Good"

Edited December 31, 2023 by Leelanau Palms

[N8ALLRIGHT]

56 minutes ago, Colin1110082 said:

.Any places where I can get a cheaper but sizeable needle palm?

My big needle came from NE Ohio palms, I think he's reasonably priced and the plants shipped flawless. But the cheapest I've seen bigger needles(3gal) is mail order natives down in Florida. I think they were around 30$ for the 3 gallon. I've never ordered from them but heard good things.

[MAPalms]

17 minutes ago, N8ALLRIGHT said:

My big needle came from NE Ohio palms, I think he's reasonably priced and the plants shipped flawless. But the cheapest I've seen bigger needles(3gal) is mail order natives down in Florida. I think they were around 30$ for the 3 gallon. I've never ordered from them but heard good things.

I agree. If you don’t want to pay as much for a larger palm from NE Ohio, mail order natives has some good palm prices.

[Colin1110082]

2 left in stock. I would love to buy now because i’m afraid they will run out but what will I do with the plant until I can plant it which will probably be mid april.. This is mail natives btw. NE ohio I have looked at before.

[Colin1110082]

Does NE ohio have a guarantee because i’m afraid I buy a 75 dollar palm then it dies and boom 75 dollars wasted

[Harry’s Palms]

They get large here in Southern California . I am glad I chose a spot on my south facing slope and not next to my house. I have a friend about 3 blocks away that planted one too close to his home and ended up cutting it down. They are slow growing until the trunk appears.

[MAPalms]

14 hours ago, RFun said:

On 12/30/2023 at 3:59 AM, Dwarf Fan said:

 

Nah, hardier than that.  Remember that areas like Wilmington, NC have seen 0F.  There's no shortage of Sabal Palmettos there.  Of course, the ones sourced from Florida are likely not going to be as hardy.  More about length of cold than anything.  But again, not the hardest palm to protect when needed.  Remember, you could be working with a Mexican Fan Palm lol.

Savannah hit 3 degrees in 1985. That area has many old palmettos that are still alive after that freeze. Palmettos are even native there!

[N8ALLRIGHT]

2 hours ago, MAPalms said:

Savannah hit 3 degrees in 1985. That area has many old palmettos that are still alive after that freeze. Palmettos are even native there!

DFW hit negative 2 during palmageddon 21'. I'm not saying most palmetto lived,many died. But some did survive and they also had  Temps under freezing for 9 or 10 days IIRC.  Tough palms for sure 

[WSimpson]

21 hours ago, MAPalms said:

What happened to your palmettos? Did any of them die? 

Yes , 2 of my three died . Those that died were beautiful flowering palms that were trunking , but they couldn't handle all those below freezing days . Palmettos can handle a low of 5F , but days that don't get above freezing zapped them . 

I notice that they weren't growing in the spring even though there was some green on the petioles . Then in April I noticed an ooze of juice coming from the bottom of the trunk on one and the other one I trunk cut down into it and it was mush .

I could've easily protected the trunks with a wrap of Christmas lights and one layer of a  blanket , but since I didn't see temperatures below 7F I thought they would be OK . 

Live and learn .

Will

Below are the 2 that died . Sad !

 

look what survived . Pictures taken the summer after that cold event . My Chamaerops and Butia made it . A great microclimate .

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Will Simpson

[RFun]

24 minutes ago, Will Simpson said:

Yes , 2 of my three died . Those that died were beautiful flowering palms that were trunking , but they couldn't handle all those below freezing days . Palmettos can handle a low of 5F , but days that don't get above freezing zapped them . 

I notice that they weren't growing in the spring even though there was some green on the petioles . Then in April I noticed an ooze of juice coming from the bottom of the trunk on one and the other one I trunk cut down into it and it was mush .

I could've easily protected the trunks with a wrap of Christmas lights and one layer of a  blanket , but since I didn't see temperatures below 7F I thought they would be OK . 

Live and learn .

Will

Below are the 2 that died . Sad !

7 days below freezing is quite a long time.  Texas found out about prolonged periods below freezing.  It takes hardy palms to withstand 7 days below freezing, no doubt.  I'm sure you've learned from that.  In your area, I'd be sourcing palms from North Carolina like the Sabal Mocksville Palmetto variety or even just general Sabal Palmetto varieties from North Carolina.

Edited December 31, 2023 by RFun

[WSimpson]

8 minutes ago, RFun said:

7 days below freezing is quite a long time.  Texas found out about prolonged periods below freezing.  It takes hardy palms to withstand 7 days below freezing, no doubt.  I'm sure you've learned from that.  In your area, I'd be sourcing palms from North Carolina like the Sabal Mocksville Palmetto variety or even just general Sabal Palmetto varieties from North Carolina.

I have a newer HC Palmetto  planted in 2020  that is from Northern Florida , I was told ,  and it handled the cold from last winter with just tip burn . I also have a Tifton Hardy that survived that 2018 event , but since it was a small palm I think that most of its bud was low to the ground . It spear pulled and I thought it was a goner because  there was this huge hole in its center after I pulled out the dead spear , but to my surprise new growth came out . 

[LeonardHolmes]

I agree with all that this is a great location.  It's still a crapshoot where you live.  I would protect for the first few years at least.  As they grow they get harder and harder to protect.  I can't believe the lengths the guy from Belgium on You tube goes to - but he has a beautiful tropical landscape in the warm seasons.