Pongamia

[Than]

Anyone is growing / has grown this tree? I'd like to hear your experience with it.

[Silas_Sancona]

23 minutes ago, Than said:

Anyone is growing / has grown this tree? I'd like to hear your experience with it.

Millettia  ** Name has been changed, ..again, lol **  ..And which species? ( there 169 recorded )  Some are hardier.  Others? ..potentially a bit tender.

[mnorell]

Nathan, he means Pongamia pinnata. A stalwart in old Hawai'ian and Florida landscapes. Most everyone still uses the genus-name Pongamia, which is still a totally valid name, even if some botanical institutions/botanists/taxonomists have laid their swords--for the present--with whomever lumped it in with Millettia. Wait long enough and they will probably change their minds again...so everyone can stick with whatever name they prefer, since Pongamia pinnata is still an accepted name for the tree. And, practically, the name is quite useful, since to use Millettia will conjure to most people and nursery-industry folks a different plant, Millettia reticulata, a popular viney/shrubby plant widely sold as "Evergreen Wisteria" (a truly bad name) in zone 9a/9b areas of the Deep South.

There are a lot of these still hanging around untouched mid-century areas of the greater Miami metro. And when I lived in Key West for a while near the salt ponds/airport area, I remember there was an old Pongamia tree planted in the parking lot, somewhat abused by drought, salt, etc., but seemingly happy. A 100-year-old neighbor of ours on Big Pine Key also had one on her lot, which she praised endlessly because nothing will kill it, hurricane, saltwater inundation, you name it. It's not a "great" tropical flowering tree to most minds, and rather reminiscent of the giant weedy tree that sprouts everywhere in the Lower Keys, Piscidia piscipula, except that the flowers on Pongamia can be delicately pretty (while Piscidia's look like dirty dishwater) and Pongamia is much smaller, more manageable in the landscape with a nice, spreading form. There's a reason it became very popular throughout the 20th century, as a sensible, durable landscaping tree, even if it has fallen largely out of the trade in recent times.

I don't know how it would do in Greece, it would probably not like your frosts and perhaps resent the long chill of winter. It might bloom on new growth, so there may be the possibility that even with dieback it could resprout in milder winters and bloom the same year. I've just never studied this one or trialed it anywhere with freezing temps, so I can't say anything first-hand on that aspect. Here is the University of Florida's info sheet on Pongamia pinnata.

[Silas_Sancona]

45 minutes ago, mnorell said:

Nathan, he means Pongamia pinnata. A stalwart in old Hawai'ian and Florida landscapes. Most everyone still uses the genus-name Pongamia, which is still a totally valid name, even if some botanical institutions/botanists/taxonomists have laid their swords--for the present--with whomever lumped it in with Millettia. Wait long enough and they will probably change their minds again...so everyone can stick with whatever name they prefer, since Pongamia pinnata is still an accepted name for the tree. And, practically, the name is quite useful, since to use Millettia will conjure to most people and nursery-industry folks a different plant, Millettia reticulata, a popular viney/shrubby plant widely sold as "Evergreen Wisteria" (a truly bad name) in zone 9a/9b areas of the Deep South.

😄Some perhaps.  Definitely not " everyone  ", however..   As a random customer, who initiated the conversation and i agreed when a similar discussion unfolded while we waited in line to pay for plants at a nursery,  I'll stick with changing times, ..and names...  I'll follow the lead of.., let alone trust the advise given by.. the Botanist,  or Taxonomist that does the research, well ahead of anyone else..  Reminds me, need to re-tag some stuff this year.

Judging by reading through many comments posted in articles related to it, it will be a hoot, pun intended,  for the " keep everything the same " stalwarts when ..dozens... of bird names are changed  -soon-  ...And that's likely just the beginning of what is likely to come, as the species names of other organisms are changed. Plants may be the next big group of organisms where the ground shifts quite a bit.

I say,  where it is needed, it's about time. Lets get it done. 

[mnorell]

Just FYI...the botanist (Robert Geesink) who absorbed Pongamia into Millettia in 1984 based on their "easy confusion" has been upended...in 2019 Australian researchers, through phylogenetic analysis, determined that the plant should not have been removed to Millettia; and they reinstated it as Pongamia pinnata (and further, described two varieties thereof). Note that Pongamia itself was a renaming by Pierre in 1898 from Linnaeus' original designation as a species in the genus Cytisus in 1753. Fun!

See here and here. for the Wiki overview, and abstract of the 2019 study.
 

[Than]

14 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Millettia  ** Name has been changed, ..again, lol **  ..And which species? ( there 169 recorded )  Some are hardier.  Others? ..potentially a bit tender.

I was talking about Pongamia pinnata. Actually I chose the name Pongamia exactly to avoid confusion as it is supposed to be a single species genus. 

@mnorell thank you so much!

[tropicbreeze]

Here it's a native along the coastlines. I see it mostly in sand at the back of beaches, or in rocky lateritic soils. Because it's so widespread it probably grows naturally in a lot of other situations. Still often called Pongamia and "Pong Tree' but sold under the Millettia name which a lot of people are familiar with. Many of the people I associate with are botanically minded so are usually up with changes. Change back to Millettia hasn't been accepted by the Council of Heads of Australasian Herbaria although the review was published in 2019.

A review of Austrocallerya and Pongamia (Leguminosae subfamily Papilionoideae) in Australia, and the description of a new monotypic genus, Ibatiria
Wendy E. Cooper, Darren M. Crayn, Frank A. Zich, Rebecca E. Miller, Melissa Harrison, Lars Nauheimer
Australian Systematic Botany, 32(4):363-384 (2019).

I have a number of these trees at home. Not being right on the coast they would have been planted by the previous owner. They do spread from seed but I wouldn't call them invasive. There's large surface roots which when nicked by the lawn mower sprout new plants from the damaged area. They are drought tolerant and lose their leaves when it dries out. Not a large tree but bushy and provides a lot of shade when in leaf. Don't appear to be subject to any pests.The flowers aren't anything special but still a very attractive tree.

 

[mnorell]

1 hour ago, tropicbreeze said:

Here it's a native along the coastlines. I see it mostly in sand at the back of beaches, or in rocky lateritic soils. Because it's so widespread it probably grows naturally in a lot of other situations. Still often called Pongamia and "Pong Tree' but sold under the Millettia name which a lot of people are familiar with. Many of the people I associate with are botanically minded so are usually up with changes. Change back to Millettia hasn't been accepted by the Council of Heads of Australasian Herbaria although the review was published in 2019.

A review of Austrocallerya and Pongamia (Leguminosae subfamily Papilionoideae) in Australia, and the description of a new monotypic genus, Ibatiria
Wendy E. Cooper, Darren M. Crayn, Frank A. Zich, Rebecca E. Miller, Melissa Harrison, Lars Nauheimer
Australian Systematic Botany, 32(4):363-384 (2019).

I have a number of these trees at home. Not being right on the coast they would have been planted by the previous owner. They do spread from seed but I wouldn't call them invasive. There's large surface roots which when nicked by the lawn mower sprout new plants from the damaged area. They are drought tolerant and lose their leaves when it dries out. Not a large tree but bushy and provides a lot of shade when in leaf. Don't appear to be subject to any pests.The flowers aren't anything special but still a very attractive tree.

 

Thanks, Zig, that's great info. Nice to have someone who has lived with it in its native habitat. BTW (and I think you just accidentally worded it in reverse), the change isn't "back to Millettia" but rather the new study refutes the 1984 paper that had tried to shove Pongamia into Millettia. The new 2019 study that confirms it as Pongamia is based on phylogenetics so should stand on pretty firm ground. I just looked on the Australian Plant Census and see indeed that they are still using Millettia...GBIF hasn't yet updated their site back to Pongamia, either (and there's no reason to think they won't eventually)...these changes can update slowly at botanical institutions, and I'm sure the interruptions of the pandemic haven't helped.

On the subject of Millettia, is M. reticulata in the trade in Australia? It's a somewhat odd but pretty vining shrubby thing from China and Taiwan that is popular in the American Deep South because it in certain ways resembles Wisteria, but with nice glossy foliage and deep claret flowers in shorter clusters, and most importantly will stay mostly evergreen in the warmer zone 9 areas. Seems to me it would be a good candidate for the NT, Queensland and warmer NSW areas where traditional, deciduous temperate-zone Wisteria may be a problem (e.g., due to possible invasiveness or not enough winter chill).

[Xenon]

[tropicbreeze]

3 hours ago, mnorell said:

Thanks, Zig, that's great info. Nice to have someone who has lived with it in its native habitat. BTW (and I think you just accidentally worded it in reverse), the change isn't "back to Millettia" but rather the new study refutes the 1984 paper that had tried to shove Pongamia into Millettia. The new 2019 study that confirms it as Pongamia is based on phylogenetics so should stand on pretty firm ground. I just looked on the Australian Plant Census and see indeed that they are still using Millettia...GBIF hasn't yet updated their site back to Pongamia, either (and there's no reason to think they won't eventually)...these changes can update slowly at botanical institutions, and I'm sure the interruptions of the pandemic haven't helped.

On the subject of Millettia, is M. reticulata in the trade in Australia? It's a somewhat odd but pretty vining shrubby thing from China and Taiwan that is popular in the American Deep South because it in certain ways resembles Wisteria, but with nice glossy foliage and deep claret flowers in shorter clusters, and most importantly will stay mostly evergreen in the warmer zone 9 areas. Seems to me it would be a good candidate for the NT, Queensland and warmer NSW areas where traditional, deciduous temperate-zone Wisteria may be a problem (e.g., due to possible invasiveness or not enough winter chill).

Thanks for pointing that out. Just tried to edit but won't let me. I'll have to proofread my posts more carefully. Name changes are always on, people need something to spend their research grants on. One of the amusing changes recently was with our mammals here. The genus Macropus covered a number of wallaby (small kangaroo) species. A revision split them up, one lot going to Osphranter, and another (which apparently definitely weren't  Macropus) went into Notamacropus. Some taxonomists do have a sense of humour. I take delight when people mention the Agile Wallaby as Macropus agilis to tell them it's Notamacropus agilis. They'll usually ask "What is it then?" Must admit, I've probably done that joke to death by now. But change can be fun.

Don't recall having seen (or heard of) Millettia reticulata. I'll keep an eye out for it. There's no herbarium records for it in Australia but it is on the biosecurity list of permitted seed (import).

 

[mnorell]

3 minutes ago, tropicbreeze said:

Thanks for pointing that out. Just tried to edit but won't let me. I'll have to proofread my posts more carefully. Name changes are always on, people need something to spend their research grants on. One of the amusing changes recently was with our mammals here. The genus Macropus covered a number of wallaby (small kangaroo) species. A revision split them up, one lot going to Osphranter, and another (which apparently definitely weren't  Macropus) went into Notamacropus. Some taxonomists do have a sense of humour. I take delight when people mention the Agile Wallaby as Macropus agilis to tell them it's Notamacropus agilis. They'll usually ask "What is it then?" Must admit, I've probably done that joke to death by now. But change can be fun.

Don't recall having seen (or heard of) Millettia reticulata. I'll keep an eye out for it. There's no herbarium records for it in Australia but it is on the biosecurity list of permitted seed (import).

 

That is too funny. I do wish we had more botanists with a sense of humor, and a few more "Nota"s inserted. Though perhaps someone was having an evil joke on all of us when Megaskepasma erythrochlamys was etched into the great granite botanical tablets of the universe. Ugh. For such a pretty plant, it is a stroke of cruelty that it should be handed such an impossible genus and epithet. 

And you hit the nail on the head about the problem with research grants. Remember the days when Acacia was an Acacia? At least you folks in Australia got to hold on to the genus-name that everyone knows and loves. Except that they even threw out the type species for Acacia since it inconveniently landed into their new genus Vachellia. A "corporate decision" solved that problem. So now in the Americas, we got stuck with something that sounds like the name of a social disease, should we decide to accept the decision of these determined splitters. And that's why I think we all have to be a bit wary in this realm. And for every lumper there seems to be a splitter waiting next in line, only for another lumper to hopscotch yet again behind. But I guess these problems are just part of modern reality, since even botanists do need to eat...and scarce sources of income with which they can do it. 

[miamicuse]

I have a tree that is referred to by some as the "Pongame oiltree".  Is it the same?

I do not have it at where I live but at a house I rent out.  It drops flowers every March/April the the ground become a carpet of flowers.

Is this a similar tree that is being referenced?

[mnorell]

Yes, looks like that's what you've got!

[miamicuse]

OK!  So it's a Pongamia pinnata common names Pongame oiltree or Indian Beech.

It was a really interesting sensation when the ground was covered with a few inches of this flower, all around the canopy of the tree, there is a scent too.  However, if it rains heavily, these flowers decompose quite quickly,  one time after rain my entire shoe sank into this wet mushy floral carpet.  I like this tree much more so then the boring Calophyllum inophyllum I have that drops green ping pong balls by the hundreds.