Palm leaves turning green again?

[Swolte]

Here's my Sabal Guatemalensis before the cold event this year here in Central Texas. Looking good. I did end up protecting it as I had a big piece of frost cloth left. 

When I unpacked my Sabal Guatemalensis a few days ago, I had mixed feelings. The ends of the large fronds (up to a feet) had turned completely white! Not yellowish. Very, almost bright white (unfortunately, I did not take a picture of this). Though I was glad this was mostly cosmetic damage, I was disappointed that a large portion of the fronds may need to be cut. I assumed that when leaves turn white after a cold event, the cells are damaged and the discoloration would be permanent.

Much to my surprise, I noticed that the white discoloration disappeared and began to turn green again! This entire section of the leaf had turned white.

Maybe this has been obvious to many of you but it was a discovery to me! The palm doesn't look as different from before the storm:

 

[Sabal King]

hahaha I just had that happen with the Sabals I have had in the ground now for a few years, and hardening them off.  I can post a few before, and after photos as well to show mine.  What is interesting is that these are going through their third winter, and every one prior, when they turned discolored after a cold event (normally ghost white, brittle, they had to be cut off in the spring).  This time, I walked out after the freeze event, they were ghost white, brittle, then we got this rain and just like that my tender Sabals (bermudana, uresana,blackburniana) look like nearly nothing even happened.  I was shocked.  This is the FIRST year this has happened.

here is one of my Sabal bermudana 

 

here is another one up against my retaining wall, also bermudana before and after.  These are days ago and the recovery has continued.  These pics were the morning after the rain, the results were incredible.

I have a third bermudana that it’s even more obvious.  

[Sabal King]

Another Sabal bermudana that I can’t seem to find the before but just look at the previous, ghost white, crispy, dead, just like last year.  I was about to get the scissors out and then…

im stunned this year and super happy not to lose all of last years growth, on anything thus far.

 

[Swolte]

Wow! So I am not going crazy!!! I was like, how did I never notice this before?! Thanks for sharing. I normally leave protections on until risk for harsh winter temperature is very low (February). However, last year, with the infamous December freeze, I lost several palms due to fungus developing inside the covers after heavy rains. What was different this year from all other years is that I unwrapped palms almost immediately after the cold event and there were heavy, heavy rains! Monday alone was 6.5" and I am afraid to look where the meter is this morning... 

@Sabal King do you normally unwrap right after a cold event with discoloration remaining? If so, it might suggest it really is the heavy watering after such events that literally saves palms!

[Leelanau Palms]

Would be swell to hear @Allen thoughts on this and comparisons to his Vortex 2024 sabal results

[Sabal King]

21 minutes ago, Swolte said:

Wow! So I am not going crazy!!! I was like, how did I never notice this before?! Thanks for sharing. I normally leave protections on until risk for harsh winter temperature is very low (February). However, last year, with the infamous December freeze, I lost several palms due to fungus developing inside the covers after heavy rains. What was different this year from all other years is that I unwrapped palms almost immediately after the cold event and there were heavy, heavy rains! Monday alone was 6.5" and I am afraid to look where the meter is this morning... 

@Sabal King do you normally unwrap right after a cold event with discoloration remaining? If so, it might suggest it really is the heavy watering after such events that literally saves palms!

Well for me, I don't wrap ANY of these Sabals, I only wrap my JxB, BxJ, and a Butia.  These Sabals ALL saw the worst of it, unwrapped, just like last year, so my variables are the same as last year EXCEPT for the rain.  We didn't get as much as you, but the rain immediately after the event, it fixed them all.  Our ranch is still getting ranch in SE Texas and set to get something like 7-9".... I bet my native Sabal minor stand out there is thrilled..

[Allen]

1 hour ago, Leelanau Palms said:

Would be swell to hear @Allen thoughts on this and comparisons to his Vortex 2024 sabal results

I don't have a answer for the turning green but I reviewed my results and videos from last winter -1F and a couple Sabals that were initially thought to have moderate damage, the fronds completely died off by March.   So we need a update on these palms in a month or 2.  But my temps were much more extreme.  Small trunking sabals have the benefit of ground heat on the 'heart' of the palm which as they grow out of the ground will not benefit them.  I know a couple people that have grown palmetto here from seed to about 5 ' trunk and one is still alive with a trunk in Nashville (We'll see after this event) and one died years ago in NE TN.  Here the ground temp when it was -6F was still 26F up to 4" deep.  Sabals that are severely burned will be set back a year or more or so on size

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Louisiana a few days after -1F Dec 2022

https://youtu.be/tM8JO_dYJFg?t=543

Louisiana March 2023

https://youtu.be/-Yr3iJUSXj8?t=712

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current Photos Today after -6F

Birmingham #1

brazoriensis

Louisiana

Birmingham #2

Edited January 24, 2024 by Allen

[Swolte]

7 minutes ago, Allen said:

Thanks for sharing. Yes, that is almost exactly what the leaves on my Guatemalensis looked like! It seems that we found a way to save palms from damage: water and water and water them - A LOT - right after the cold event. 

It makes sense that plants are stressed for water after such cold events through, for example, cold desiccation. I actually feared the excessive rain would be harmful for recovery given that roots wouldn't be able to take up much water. I wonder, given Sabals are adapted for swamps, whether other species of palm would also show this type of recovery after rains. Any observations are welcome!

I just checked my water gauge and we added another 6" to yesterday making it a total of 1 foot of rain within 2 days. Its still going...

[Sabal King]

1 hour ago, Swolte said:

Thanks for sharing. Yes, that is almost exactly what the leaves on my Guatemalensis looked like! It seems that we found a way to save palms from damage: water and water and water them - A LOT - right after the cold event. 

It makes sense that plants are stressed for water after such cold events through, for example, cold desiccation. I actually feared the excessive rain would be harmful for recovery given that roots wouldn't be able to take up much water. I wonder, given Sabals are adapted for swamps, whether other species of palm would also show this type of recovery after rains. Any observations are welcome!

I just checked my water gauge and we added another 6" to yesterday making it a total of 1 foot of rain within 2 days. Its still going...

It also helps that our weathers moderate much faster than up in TN..  They did this last year, minus the coming back to normal... it's either A) the rain (which I think makes a huge difference) or B ) hardening them off over the course of many years... personally, I think it's both A and B.

[ChicagoPalma]

3 hours ago, Allen said:

I don't have a answer for the turning green but I reviewed my results and videos from last winter -1F and a couple Sabals that were initially thought to have moderate damage, the fronds completely died off by March.   So we need a update on these palms in a month or 2.  But my temps were much more extreme.  Small trunking sabals have the benefit of ground heat on the 'heart' of the palm which as they grow out of the ground will not benefit them.  I know a couple people that have grown palmetto here from seed to about 5 ' trunk and one is still alive with a trunk in Nashville (We'll see after this event) and one died years ago in NE TN.  Here the ground temp when it was -6F was still 26F up to 4" deep.  Sabals that are severely burned will be set back a year or more or so on size

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Louisiana a few days after -1F Dec 2022

https://youtu.be/tM8JO_dYJFg?t=543

Louisiana March 2023

https://youtu.be/-Yr3iJUSXj8?t=712

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current Photos Today after -6F

Birmingham #1

brazoriensis

Louisiana

Birmingham #2

This could be that cells moved out of there, there was a experiment used in spinach leaves, they sucked out the cells, and only a skeleton was left. When they started adding the cells back, it turned back green again. This could be why, but its only a theory.

[Sabal King]

@teddytn evidently is seeing the same behavior on his mexicana up in TN...

[Allen]

On 1/23/2024 at 10:13 PM, Swolte said:

Here's my Sabal Guatemalensis before the cold event this year here in Central Texas. Looking good. I did end up protecting it as I had a big piece of frost cloth left. 

When I unpacked my Sabal Guatemalensis a few days ago, I had mixed feelings. The ends of the large fronds (up to a feet) had turned completely white! Not yellowish. Very, almost bright white (unfortunately, I did not take a picture of this). Though I was glad this was mostly cosmetic damage, I was disappointed that a large portion of the fronds may need to be cut. I assumed that when leaves turn white after a cold event, the cells are damaged and the discoloration would be permanent.

Much to my surprise, I noticed that the white discoloration disappeared and began to turn green again! This entire section of the leaf had turned white.

Maybe this has been obvious to many of you but it was a discovery to me! The palm doesn't look as different from before the storm:

 

Looking at this one from @Swolte closer this morning.  The damage on this one doesn't look bad.  This looks like where the palm fronds were curled touching the frost cloth?

 

On 1/24/2024 at 6:15 AM, Sabal King said:

hahaha I just had that happen with the Sabals I have had in the ground now for a few years, and hardening them off.  I can post a few before, and after photos as well to show mine.  What is interesting is that these are going through their third winter, and every one prior, when they turned discolored after a cold event (normally ghost white, brittle, they had to be cut off in the spring).  This time, I walked out after the freeze event, they were ghost white, brittle, then we got this rain and just like that my tender Sabals (bermudana, uresana,blackburniana) look like nearly nothing even happened.  I was shocked.  This is the FIRST year this has happened.

here is one of my Sabal bermudana 

 

here is another one up against my retaining wall, also bermudana before and after.  These are days ago and the recovery has continued.  These pics were the morning after the rain, the results were incredible.

I have a third bermudana that it’s even more obvious.  

 

 

@Sabal King I'll be surprised if these fronds on the bermudana I left above don't die off in a month or 2.  New pics in March same angle and we can see what happened.  

Edited January 25, 2024 by Allen

[teddytn]

1 hour ago, Sabal King said:

@teddytn evidently is seeing the same behavior on his mexicana up in TN...

I didn’t take a before pic, I assumed it was 85% fried like initially looked. I checked it out after work last night and came back. Zombie mexicana I guess. Looks better than some of my palmetto's. This was not protected at all. 4 nights in the single digits and 6 days below freezing. 

[Allen]

55 minutes ago, teddytn said:

I didn’t take a before pic, I assumed it was 85% fried like initially looked. I checked it out after work last night and came back. Zombie mexicana I guess. Looks better than some of my palmetto's. This was not protected at all. 4 nights in the single digits and 6 days below freezing. 

I think a update pic in March is what we need to see what's really going on.  

[Swolte]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

Looking at this one from @Swolte closer this morning.  The damage on this one doesn't look bad.  This looks like where the palm fronds were curled touching the frost cloth?

Just to clarity, that image is the recovered leaf. It used to be 'ghost white', like yours. 

Here's one from this morning. You can see the chlorophyl returning compared to two days ago.

[SeanK]

Around Easter you can make an accurate assessment of recovery.

[RJ]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

Around Easter you can make an accurate assessment of recovery.

Tend to agree here. Too early to call victory just yet imo. Hoping for the best for you guys though. 

[RJ]

@Sabal King how is your s. causiarum looking? 

[teddytn]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

I think a update pic in March is what we need to see what's really going on.  

100% agree. I’ll do it for sure

[Allen]

On a side note in many hotels I have been to they use cut palm fronds for vase decorations because they last so long.  Up to a month

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/11962755246880022/

[Sabal King]

47 minutes ago, RJ said:

@Sabal King how is your s. causiarum looking? 

it looks OK, taken a beating last few years but continue to grow.  This year will be interesting, but the biggest problem with the causiarum, and all of the palms toward the back part of this property, is they are not in this clay like the ones by my outdoor kitchen.  So when we get 100f+ for months on end, and no rain.. I just don't have the time and energy to get back there and water.  The soil is garbage, and over time should get better with our grass penetrating it back there, but it's neglected.  I wouldn't, or couldn't make a fair comparison with the ones up here that get babied.  It is growing though and it initially shriveled up ,and now plumped up like these.

50 minutes ago, RJ said:

Tend to agree here. Too early to call victory just yet imo. Hoping for the best for you guys though. 

I agree but I will tell you the old adage of waiting many months is just part of it.  EVERY freeze is different, and for some you need to wait month to see damage, but for some, like this one, this one is different than the last few.  This rain really made a HUGE difference.  Every other time, you have damage, and you have it quickly.  Rarely do you see zero damage after a freeze, then it happens in six months.  I have NOT seen that, and I have a crap ton of things to reference here for that.  The initial reaction to things is a big big indicator of what to expect in the coming months.  I'm more than happy to adjust my thoughts, perspectives as things change and it's why I document this all so much, so we can all benefit and learn from me, potentially killing some things

 

[Sabal King]

This is going to be interesting to watch and document.

Sabal bermudana (3x) - They have gone backwards about 50% but still better than post freeze

Sabal urensasaa (1x) - 50% backwards but better than the freeze damage initially

Sabal mexicana (3x) - look awesome.  They were dried, shriveled looking, but plumped, and green'd up.

Sabal blackburniana -(1x) - looks awesome... initially took some damage, thought I would lose ALL of the foliage like last year, but didn't.  Plumped up, green, and looking awesome.

Dissapointed with bermudana in DFW.. I've always wanted there, but they just aren't very leaf hardy.  Oh well.  We'll grow'em until we kill'em

[Swolte]

Update. Now that it warmed up, looks like the spots that were 'recovering' turned brown again (permanently, it seems). False alarm! Still an interesting phenomenon.

[Allen]

30 minutes ago, Swolte said:

Update. Now that it warmed up, looks like the spots that were 'recovering' turned brown again (permanently, it seems). False alarm! Still an interesting phenomenon.

to expound on this a bit I think the fronds will die off more because there is no live tissue for the green parts of the frond to survive if they have a dead part in front of it.  ie why I mentioned cut fronds in a container can stay green for a month.  So the green tips will die off. 

On 1/24/2024 at 6:15 AM, Sabal King said:

here is another one up against my retaining wall, also bermudana before and after.  These are days ago and the recovery has continued.  These pics were the morning after the rain, the results were incredible.

So for example in above photo from @Sabal King the green tips for sure have nothing to support them and the tips will die in a month or so from injury and/or any green portion of the fronds that is not still supported by live tissue

[Las Palmas Norte]

The true extent of damage often isn't realized for several months. Ask me how I know.

[RFun]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:13 PM, Swolte said:

Here's my Sabal Guatemalensis before the cold event this year here in Central Texas. Looking good. I did end up protecting it as I had a big piece of frost cloth left. 

When I unpacked my Sabal Guatemalensis a few days ago, I had mixed feelings. The ends of the large fronds (up to a feet) had turned completely white! Not yellowish. Very, almost bright white (unfortunately, I did not take a picture of this). Though I was glad this was mostly cosmetic damage, I was disappointed that a large portion of the fronds may need to be cut. I assumed that when leaves turn white after a cold event, the cells are damaged and the discoloration would be permanent.

Much to my surprise, I noticed that the white discoloration disappeared and began to turn green again! This entire section of the leaf had turned white.

Maybe this has been obvious to many of you but it was a discovery to me! The palm doesn't look as different from before the storm:

 

Looks great!

[Allen]

On 1/24/2024 at 6:24 AM, Sabal King said:

Another Sabal bermudana that I can’t seem to find the before but just look at the previous, ghost white, crispy, dead, just like last year.  I was about to get the scissors out and then…

im stunned this year and super happy not to lose all of last years growth, on anything thus far.

 

 

On 1/24/2024 at 6:15 AM, Sabal King said:

hahaha I just had that happen with the Sabals I have had in the ground now for a few years, and hardening them off.  I can post a few before, and after photos as well to show mine.  What is interesting is that these are going through their third winter, and every one prior, when they turned discolored after a cold event (normally ghost white, brittle, they had to be cut off in the spring).  This time, I walked out after the freeze event, they were ghost white, brittle, then we got this rain and just like that my tender Sabals (bermudana, uresana,blackburniana) look like nearly nothing even happened.  I was shocked.  This is the FIRST year this has happened.

here is one of my Sabal bermudana 

 

here is another one up against my retaining wall, also bermudana before and after.  These are days ago and the recovery has continued.  These pics were the morning after the rain, the results were incredible.

I have a third bermudana that it’s even more obvious.  

@Sabal King Any photo updates so we can see progress?

[Sabal King]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

 

@Sabal King Any photo updates so we can see progress?

As thought, the green was temporary as the bermudanas and one urensas have gone white again, albeit not crispy like last year.  They looked good for a week, didn't crisp up and the palms are all pushing new growth.

[Leelanau Palms]

Keep us updated. Pics would be cool 

[Xenon]

I don't think this Sabal guatemalensis (seed sourced from Belize) is going to uncrisp itself 😆 ...Otoh, S. casuarium is a winner. Low was "only 18/19F" here in west Houston suburbs 

 

[Swolte]

Here's an updated pic. Now it is showing the predictable progression of 'crisping'. We'll see what's left of it when it really warms up. It should live!


~ S 

[teddytn]

On 1/25/2024 at 8:35 AM, Allen said:

I think an update pic in March is what we need to see what's really going on.  

No need to wait until March. Mexicana completely smoked. All good it will come back when it warms up, one day if it gets out right killed all good too. Interesting why a lot of people saw this regreening happen. I’ve never seen this before, usually when it’s damaged then that’s it. 

[RJ]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:48 PM, Xenon said:

I don't think this Sabal guatemalensis (seed sourced from Belize) is going to uncrisp itself 😆 ...Otoh, S. casuarium is a winner. Low was "only 18/19F" here in west Houston suburbs 

 

I’ve found  S. casuarium to be good to the mid teens. Probably the toughest big sabal. I also have what was sold as  S. casuarium as well, but it appears to now be S. dom as it got some good crisp to it in the upper teens to low 20’s. Most likely will be pulling that one out, which is too bad because it grows quite fast and looked like it was going to be big and beautiful. 

Edited February 12, 2024 by RJ