The journey begins

[tarnado]

This Sabal 'Oregon Hybrid' came today. My first hardy palm. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step!

[BeyondTheGarden]

Is that the one from Desertscape?  

 

[tarnado]

It is indeed, outta Redmond OR

[Allen]

Congrats and welcome to the forum

[BeyondTheGarden]

I never made it up to Anacortes, I lived on the south side of the sound from 2014 until last year (with a 3 year break due to Army life).  The PNW has it's virtues, including gardening.  Do you have any plans to grow Trachycarpus?  They love growing in the PNW. 

[tarnado]

42 minutes ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

I never made it up to Anacortes, I lived on the south side of the sound from 2014 until last year (with a 3 year break due to Army life).  The PNW has it's virtues, including gardening.  Do you have any plans to grow Trachycarpus?  They love growing in the PNW. 

Oh lordy do I have *plans* including Trachycarpus - T. takil, T. fortunei, T. latisectus - and hybridizing thereof!

[BeyondTheGarden]

Don't take T fortunei for granted.  I mean it, they do amazing in the PNW.  Maybe the healthiest of any Trachies I've ever seen.  There are no nematodes or any of the palm diseases up there.  And T fortunei don't need much heat to grow, they seem to continue pushing new growth even down into the 50's.   I took them for granted until I moved to the east coast.  I'm growing some here but with low expectations; they generally look like garbage on the east coast where the soil is warm sand with nematodes. 

[ChicagoPalma]

1 hour ago, tarnado said:

Oh lordy do I have *plans* including Trachycarpus - T. takil, T. fortunei, T. latisectus - and hybridizing thereof!

Good luck buddy! Looks like we have similar goals. I was thinking to get sabal minor var oregon but everyone said its probably fake and scam. Then again, all sabal minors do pretty well in severe cold, so high expectations I expect from them. Thinking of getting a sabal minor myself but of course sabal king still thinks im delusional and believes Im going to screw it up. Im not too crazy like last year but yeah I'll probably get one. Either way, this year that palm bug is really getting to me so sabal minor is a no-brainer.

[tarnado]

1 hour ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Good luck buddy! Looks like we have similar goals. I was thinking to get sabal minor var oregon but everyone said its probably fake and scam. Then again, all sabal minors do pretty well in severe cold, so high expectations I expect from them. Thinking of getting a sabal minor myself but of course sabal king still thinks im delusional and believes Im going to screw it up. Im not too crazy like last year but yeah I'll probably get one. Either way, this year that palm bug is really getting to me so sabal minor is a no-brainer.

Thanks for the sentiments. I've never heard much of this 'Oregon Hybrid' but it's probably *some* kind of reasonably hardy Sabal, probably Sabal minor in some kind of unusual form. Either way, it was there for sale and I BOUGHT IT because by golly, "this year that palm bug is really getting to me" so... yeah. I dunno about this sabal king.

[Leelanau Palms]

Yes, welcome aboard! I'll look forward to updates on your expanding collection.

[Banana Belt]

12 hours ago, tarnado said:

It is indeed, outta Redmond OR

Redmond Oregon?  That is a strange place to be growing Palms, must be indoor as Redmond OR, is High Desert country and freezes to 0 every year.  Odd thing is Redmond Oregon was the place I purchased Pam Fertilizer 27 years ago when I was growing our juvenile Jubaea Palms here in Harbor Oregon (South Coast).  Best fertilizer I have ever found.

[Chester B]

14 minutes ago, Banana Belt said:

Redmond Oregon?  That is a strange place to be growing Palms, must be indoor as Redmond OR, is High Desert country and freezes to 0 every year.  Odd thing is Redmond Oregon was the place I purchased Pam Fertilizer 27 years ago when I was growing our juvenile Jubaea Palms here in Harbor Oregon (South Coast).  Best fertilizer I have ever found.

You have to read all the descriptions carefully. its all very misleading.  He used to sell Jubaea seeds supposedly from the cold side of Oregon.  You ever see any fruiting Jubaea in Eastern Oregon!  Yours and a few other big ones down in SW Oregon may be close but clearly nothing on the east side.  We know that Jubaea can't survive eastern Oregon unless protected in winter.

These Sabal "Oregon" are most likely Sabal "Birmingham".  The description states the mother plant is a Birmingham and there are other Sabals in the yard.  It doesn't mean they are cross pollinating.  And the mother plant if it were cross pollinated, it wouldn't be 100% by another palm - Sabals are self fertile.

"we believe this is an extremely hardy cross of Sabal birmingham with another hardy Sabal palm on the property (minor (McCurtain), brazoriensis, louisiana, or mexicana)."

There is no way to clearly identify these are hybrids unless you grow each plant up to maturity which takes forever, and even then it my be hard to identify with this list of potential candidates.  Sabal "Lisa" which produce regular form palmetto are even hard to tell if you have a mutant for a while until they get large enough to display the traits.

I bought one of these a few years back for the fun of it.  It's slow as molasses, much slower than every other Sabal including minor.  That's a pretty tell tale sign of a "birmingham"

 

[Banana Belt]

2 minutes ago, Chester B said:

You ever see any fruiting Jubaea in Eastern Oregon!

I can't remember ever seeing any palms east of the Cascades in Oregon, except for Palm fossils in the John Day fossil beds near Clarno.  Perhaps as you say a Sabal might grow someplace in Eastern Oregon, even Redmond or Bend.  Nevertheless I have purchased hundreds of pounds of Palm Fertilizer in Redmond Oregon at the Grocery Outlet store back in the 1990's when our Jubaea here in Brookings were smaller.  When I first saw the fertilizer which on the package said "Palm Fertilizer", I thought it very odd that it would be in the Redmond Or store but not in any other Grocery Outlet stores between Madras and Brookings.  It was the best fertilizer I have ever bought.

[Chester B]

I got it with 3 small strap leaves and 2 years later this is how it looks. I kept it inside over winter as well to try and speed up its growth. 
Even if it is only a Birmingham, it’s still a nice palm.  
 

The closest thing I’ve seen to palm over by Redmond and Bend was Yucca rostrata. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

Wow Ryan that one is quite slow.  I think a bigger pot helps Sabals quite a bit.  I just repotted my Sabal "oregon"  a few months ago, and it's already wanting to be repotted again.  If we were a little later into the year I would just go ahead and put it in the ground.  

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

Also, I'm sure someone knows this, do small palmettos bifurcate like my fronds are doing here?  Does that indicate anything about its heritage, palmetto, minor, or otherwise?

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

Also, I'm sure someone knows this, do small palmettos bifurcate like my fronds are doing here?  Does that indicate anything about its heritage, palmetto, minor, or otherwise?

Minors like to do that, as well as Birmingham which likely has Sabal minor genetics in it.  The other Sabals I'm growing don't seem to do that, they go from big strap leaf direct to palmate.  Not something I've paid much attention too, but now that you mention it you've sparked my memory.

My Sabal Oregon is in a tree pot, so there is plenty of room for roots.  I have fully palmate Sabals in the same size pot that have vastly outgrown mine.

 

[BeyondTheGarden]

Thanks @Chester B, I wasn't sure if palmettos have that during the transition out of the strap-leaf stage.  That center deep cut on the fronds is the best way I know to identify a minor.  Although now that I'm around both minors and palmettos, the differences are now discernable even at a distance.  Used to, I couldn't tell minor from a small palmetto but it gets easier with time.  I don't really "learn" a palm until I spend some time growing them in my own yard.   Which I don't have any palmettos yet. 

[RJ]

23 hours ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

Don't take T fortunei for granted.  I mean it, they do amazing in the PNW.  Maybe the healthiest of any Trachies I've ever seen.  There are no nematodes or any of the palm diseases up there.  And T fortunei don't need much heat to grow, they seem to continue pushing new growth even down into the 50's.   I took them for granted until I moved to the east coast.  I'm growing some here but with low expectations; they generally look like garbage on the east coast where the soil is warm sand with nematodes. 

Are you in sand or clay? The "knatt" line is a pretty good indicator of general soil transition.  They grow well here, but certainly appreciate afternoon shade. Ones grown in full sun generally look anemic IMO. 

[BeyondTheGarden]

6 minutes ago, RJ said:

Are you in sand or clay? The "knatt" line is a pretty good indicator of general soil transition.  They grow well here, but certainly appreciate afternoon shade. Ones grown in full sun generally look anemic IMO. 

What is the "knatt" line?  I tried googling it.  I'm in "the sandhills", it's sand but there is also a high clay content.  I think a lot of people say "sand", not realizing that there is also a pretty high clay component.  There are places that are pure sand and when you see it, it's easy to identify.  But if you dig down about 2 feet, the sand content decreases dramatically and it's a lot of clay, and down a little more and there is even some rock.  But rock is almost nonexistent down to that point, unless it was brought in from somewhere for landscaping or fill.  

Gary, from Gary's Nursery, says that the healthiest Trachycarpus on the east coast are the ones grown further inland, in clay, not sand.  The 14' tall Trachy I transplanted a couple months ago was growing in very high clay content and it was a happy camper.  

You also have nematodes which thrive in the warm soil out here.  They seem to be the greatest limiting factor.  And even in the PNW, I think most people agree that shade-grown trachycarpus just look so much better.  Bigger fronds, bigger crowns, longer petioles, etc.  I know I often reference "banana joe" or "jungle joe" or whatever his various names are,  and I know he posts the same videos over and over and over, but he has documented some beautiful etiolated Trachycarpus with petioles that are 6' long!  Shade is just the way to go for trachycarpus!

[Harry’s Palms]

Yay , new palm day! 

[RJ]

2 hours ago, BeyondTheGarden said:

What is the "knatt" line?  I tried googling it.  I'm in "the sandhills", it's sand but there is also a high clay content.  I think a lot of people say "sand", not realizing that there is also a pretty high clay component.  There are places that are pure sand and when you see it, it's easy to identify.  But if you dig down about 2 feet, the sand content decreases dramatically and it's a lot of clay, and down a little more and there is even some rock.  But rock is almost nonexistent down to that point, unless it was brought in from somewhere for landscaping or fill.  

Gary, from Gary's Nursery, says that the healthiest Trachycarpus on the east coast are the ones grown further inland, in clay, not sand.  The 14' tall Trachy I transplanted a couple months ago was growing in very high clay content and it was a happy camper.  

You also have nematodes which thrive in the warm soil out here.  They seem to be the greatest limiting factor.  And even in the PNW, I think most people agree that shade-grown trachycarpus just look so much better.  Bigger fronds, bigger crowns, longer petioles, etc.  I know I often reference "banana joe" or "jungle joe" or whatever his various names are,  and I know he posts the same videos over and over and over, but he has documented some beautiful etiolated Trachycarpus with petioles that are 6' long!  Shade is just the way to go for trachycarpus!

I said the the same thing when a local pointed it out. For the record I mistyped it's "gnat" , also known as the fall line.  :

https://southofthegnatline.blogspot.com/p/gnat-line-101_28.html

I'm in a transition zone, I have clay but not the deep red clay that is common in NC and northern SC.  Less then 10 miles from me as the crow flies it's nothing but sand. I have yet to see really well grown trachycarpus South/east of this line.  North/West of this line I have seen plenty of well grown ones,  but as I have noted they require some shade.  In the SE afternoon shade seems to be most beneficial.  The sun is just much more intense down here then up in the PNW.  I lived at a similar latitude in the NE, the sun intensity just doesn't compare to down here.  

 

I do not know if I have nematodes, they seem to thrive is sandy soil, which I do now have. Mine is a clay/loam.  There are many 15' tall trachycapus around me, and plenty in the 20' plus range. 

 

 

Edited February 4 by RJ

[PalmatierMeg]

On 2/3/2024 at 12:03 AM, ChicagoPalma said:

Good luck buddy! Looks like we have similar goals. I was thinking to get sabal minor var oregon but everyone said its probably fake and scam. Then again, all sabal minors do pretty well in severe cold, so high expectations I expect from them. Thinking of getting a sabal minor myself but of course sabal king still thinks im delusional and believes Im going to screw it up. Im not too crazy like last year but yeah I'll probably get one. Either way, this year that palm bug is really getting to me so sabal minor is a no-brainer.

Since we are talking Sabals here, Plant Delights Nursery (PDN) in NC just sent me their spring 2024 catalog. They usually include several new Sabal species and this time didn't disappoint. 

Their offerings include:

1. Sabal miamiensis (not new but desirable)

2. Sabal palmetto 'Lisa' (not new but hard to find)

3. Sabal palmetto 'Augusta' (new from a mother palm that survived -1F in Augusta, GA in 1985. From seed donated by Joe LeVert)

4. Sabal rosei 'Augusta Rose' (new. No other info provided beyond a photo. Available only to members of the local botanical garden at this time.  I'm hoping PDN will have enough plants for interested plant lovers in the future as I would consider getting one).

If you are a Sabal lover check them out.

PS - here is a link to PDN's online catalog      https://www.plantdelights.com/

[Chester B]

@PalmatierMeg I still have 6 Sabal Lisa I got from you a long time ago.  This may finally be the year some make it into the ground.

[PalmatierMeg]

1 minute ago, Chester B said:

@PalmatierMeg I still have 6 Sabal Lisa I got from you a long time ago.  This may finally be the year some make it into the ground.

They will be much happier in the ground. Good luck with them