Washingtonia filifera damaged. Will it be fine?

[RichardS]

Hello, today I tried to unwrap my Washingtonia filifera, but I found it damaged. It was completely covered with frost cloth for almost three months and the lowest temperature it experienced was -9°C or 15°F for two nights in a row. The fronds were dry and bent to the side, so I had to cut them off.  What did I do wrong and most importantly, will it be fine?

Location: A small town approximately 30km from Bratislava, Slovakia (Zone 7b/8a).

[MarcusH]

7 hours ago, RichardS said:

Hello, today I tried to unwrap my Washingtonia filifera, but I found it damaged. It was completely covered with frost cloth for almost three months and the lowest temperature it experienced was -9°C or 15°F for two nights in a row. The fronds were dry and bent to the side, so I had to cut them off.  What did I do wrong and most importantly, will it be fine?

Location: A small town approximately 30km from Bratislava, Slovakia (Zone 7b/8a).

The low is not an issue for a Filifera while this palm can handle brief temperatures in the upper single digits . What material and what wrapping method did you choose ? Did you use any heat sources ? To find out if your palm is ok , pull the spear.  If it doesn't come out then mark the spear to keep track on growth ( recommended) . Your palm needs sunshine and warmer temperatures to recover.  

[Allen]

Looking at your temp history and cool conditions you have great weather for a Trachycarpus fortunei.  Looking at my papers on filifera I see frond damage starts at -4C in small palms to (-8C to -10C) where most frond tissue is killed in adult palms.  Palms don't heat themselves so frost cloth alone does little

Edited February 19 by Allen

[SailorBold]

I almost want to say it was covered for too long.. you could get away with just covering it with a plastic trash can during snow/ice storms to keep moisture off the leaves.. and remove during milder/drier? weather..   if youre concerned about keeping the leaves green.. some mini incandescent xmas lights on the ground inside the trashcan.. around the base should do the trick..

You'd really only need to protect below 20f.. so a few nights?  Unless you just like I said want to keep moisture off the palm..

[RichardS]

22 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

The low is not an issue for a Filifera while this palm can handle brief temperatures in the upper single digits . What material and what wrapping method did you choose ? Did you use any heat sources ? To find out if your palm is ok , pull the spear.  If it doesn't come out then mark the spear to keep track on growth ( recommended) . Your palm needs sunshine and warmer temperatures to recover.  

I don't exactly know what material the frost cloth was. I just tied up the fronds and wrapped it so that there were no gaps and added some tape to hold it, no heat source. The spear didn't come out, but looks pretty dry, I'll try to mark it. Thanks for that tip. For the next ten days we should see highs between (10 - 14°C) and no freezes. Not a lot of sunshine though, so it unfortunately won't see much growth right?

[RichardS]

17 minutes ago, SailorBold said:

I almost want to say it was covered for too long.. you could get away with just covering it with a plastic trash can during snow/ice storms to keep moisture off the leaves.. and remove during milder/drier? weather..   if youre concerned about keeping the leaves green.. some mini incandescent xmas lights on the ground inside the trashcan.. around the base should do the trick..

You'd really only need to protect below 20f.. so a few nights?  Unless you just like I said want to keep moisture off the palm..

Yeah, the weather was mostly mild, especially for the past few weeks when we had temps as high as 65°F. I would never expect that to be a problem though. 20°F is quite rare so I'll protect it only if it gets below that. Snow also isn't all that common. This winter we had like one week of snow cover in total, the rest was just rain. Thank you very much, hopefully it will be better next winter.

[MarcusH]

34 minutes ago, RichardS said:

I don't exactly know what material the frost cloth was. I just tied up the fronds and wrapped it so that there were no gaps and added some tape to hold it, no heat source. The spear didn't come out, but looks pretty dry, I'll try to mark it. Thanks for that tip. For the next ten days we should see highs between (10 - 14°C) and no freezes. Not a lot of sunshine though, so it unfortunately won't see much growth right?

Wrapping a palm for 3 months in a row I would assume takes a toll on every palm especially when just wrapped . Some people use thermocubes to protect their palms but anyway . Give it some water and see what happens after a few weeks. 

[Paradise Found]

Also when you keep the frost cloth on After all cold is done it keeps the cold trapped inside the wrapping.  This is espically true if you’re using blankets to wrap your palms, luckily you didn’t do that. Heat is needed in gardening zone 7b/8a. As others have mentioned.   It still might make it only time will tell.  

Edited February 19 by Paradise Found

[UK_Palms]

That Washingtonia is toast unfortunately pal. Mine looked the same after last winter and my minimums weren't quite as cold as you got this winter (-8.6C vs -9C). It will decline further in the coming weeks/months, especially without any proper warmth that you would maybe experience in more subtropical regions that are further south i.e. Texas or Spain. Washingtonia can take lower temps in those sort of places as the spring recovery is far greater, unlike in our regions. They will have 25-30C / 77-85F in the coming weeks. Whereas we won't.

If I go 20 miles northeast of my location to London, or 35 miles south to the coastal parts of southern England, there are pristine 30 foot plus Washingtonia's that do not take winter damage as it does not get cold enough. But in our inland, northern latitude locations, with less UHI influence as well, where -8C or lower is possible, you will struggle to get them through back to back winters. In fact you won't really. I am afraid it is a lost cause in Slovakia. You are zone 7b, so chances are next winter will be even worse anyway.

No chance of growing specimens like these ones in England outside of zone 8b/9a, certainly outside of a dry, sunny climate like New Mexico, Texas, central Spain etc or somewhere. Any places that see minimums below -5C / 23F in a cooler/wetter climate like ours is going to be a death sentence to Washingtonia, whether Robusta or Filifera.

\

 

All the ones shown above are from the UK, but in places that never go below -5C / 23F really, ever. Some of those spots rarely even see -2C / 28F. So in continental Europe, you can forget about growing Washingtonia, even with protection. Just saying. Even if you protect it impeccably with lights and everything, that will only buy you time. So you are just prolonging the inevitable.

[Jimhardy]

Mine took 18F with hardly any damage at all...as mentioned the best plan is

to give the spear a gentle tug and see if it gives way...also as mentioned mark the spear with a marker and watch to see if

it is moving...having all that mulch down is a good plan but it can be pushed back away from the trunk to let the soil

warm up(sunny weather) as otherwise it can take forever,,,good luck and don't give up on it.

[UK_Palms]

7 minutes ago, Jimhardy said:

Mine took 18F with hardly any damage at all...as mentioned the best plan is

to give the spear a gentle tug and see if it gives way...also as mentioned mark the spear with a marker and watch to see if

it is moving...having all that mulch down is a good plan but it can be pushed back away from the trunk to let the soil

warm up(sunny weather) as otherwise it can take forever,,,good luck and don't give up on it.

You are giving it all-out protection though with a load of tarpaulin wrap and christmas lights, right? And again, that only buys you time until it gets to a certain size in your climate.

Also I have never seen you post a photo of your Iowa based Washingtonia, which makes me wonder whether you are actually replacing it every couple of years, or once it gets too big and unmanageable in terms of being able to protect it adequately...?

I know you have been growing Washies for years in your location, so any chance of seeing a photo of it?

[RichardS]

Well, thanks everyone for help. It got some rain today and some sun after that, now I'll wait for a few weeks. Hopefully It'll come back and recover.

[Leelanau Palms]

Good luck! Hope for the best for you

[Jimhardy]

This palm is supposed to be pure Filifera..I have some doubts as they are difficult to come by unless

you find a stand out in an oasis in the desert. This was the beginning of spring 2023....the area it is planted

in is extremely rocky so I wanted to try a suitable palm for it...there is a Y.Gloriosa and a Y.Rostrada x Thonsoniana 

that made it through -18F this winter with just covers (no heat) behind it.....I am really not into doing this as much as I used to be

but still have fun with it occasionally.  

 

 

  

Edited February 19 by Jimhardy

[Jimhardy]

Sometimes people forget this is a fun hobby.

 

Here it is last fall  after 18F ...even the cactus in the background survived and although

I wasn't planning on bringing them inside, after I saw them still alive after 18F I thought they deserved to be saved for what thats worth...

I dont really plan on keeping this palm or any of the others for to much longer and when you look at whats going on in the world now

I think many of the luxuries we have all enjoyed are going away soon and growing palms is certainly up there...but

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19 by Jimhardy

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, RichardS said:

Well, thanks everyone for help. It got some rain today and some sun after that, now I'll wait for a few weeks. Hopefully It'll come back and recover.

You should have been advised to keep any rain and moisture out of the crown of the palm especially, as well as the surrounding soil too, as this will further exacerbate problems going into spring with fungus/rot. Remember that Washingtonia Filifera is a desert palm and needs good drainage and a somewhat dry climate. This is all the more important when it is stressed and trying to recover.

Now if the growing point has received winter damage, especially from wet-cold, it needs to be kept dry for the foreseeable to limit fungus and any further decline. Where you are located, it does not need to receive any rainfall for months still. Further rainfall will undoubtedly cause it more problems and reduce the chance of it recovering. This wouldn’t be an issue really if it hadn’t been damaged and already struggling. Even in Southern California and New Mexico, Filifera’s do not need rainfall to recover after cold damage. Just saying.

I would hit the crown with hydrogen peroxide, before drying it all off and then constructing some kind of overhead cover to keep any further rain out for at least a month or two, until it has pushed out an entire new spear. Assuming it does even recover altogether. Whatever you do, you need to keep the rain and moisture out of that spear at all costs following the damage you have incurred. That will likely be what makes or breaks any recovery attempt.

Edited February 19 by UK_Palms

[MarcusH]

10 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

That Washingtonia is toast unfortunately pal. Mine looked the same after last winter and my minimums weren't quite as cold as you got this winter (-8.6C vs -9C). It will decline further in the coming weeks/months, especially without any proper warmth that you would maybe experience in more subtropical regions that are further south i.e. Texas or Spain. Washingtonia can take lower temps in those sort of places as the spring recovery is far greater, unlike in our regions. They will have 25-30C / 77-85F in the coming weeks. Whereas we won't.

If I go 20 miles northeast of my location to London, or 35 miles south to the coastal parts of southern England, there are pristine 30 foot plus Washingtonia's that do not take winter damage as it does not get cold enough. But in our inland, northern latitude locations, with less UHI influence as well, where -8C or lower is possible, you will struggle to get them through back to back winters. In fact you won't really. I am afraid it is a lost cause in Slovakia. You are zone 7b, so chances are next winter will be even worse anyway.

No chance of growing specimens like these ones in England outside of zone 8b/9a, certainly outside of a dry, sunny climate like New Mexico, Texas, central Spain etc or somewhere. Any places that see minimums below -5C / 23F in a cooler/wetter climate like ours is going to be a death sentence to Washingtonia, whether Robusta or Filifera.

\

 

All the ones shown above are from the UK, but in places that never go below -5C / 23F really, ever. Some of those spots rarely even see -2C / 28F. So in continental Europe, you can forget about growing Washingtonia, even with protection. Just saying. Even if you protect it impeccably with lights and everything, that will only buy you time. So you are just prolonging the inevitable.

Those are some nice Washies , looking all healthy .

I'm not an expert on cold hardiness on palms in different locations outside of the sunbelt in the US . What I know they can take a beating pretty well and normally bounce back pretty quickly after a severe freeze let's say upper single digits IF temperatures warm up quickly after the freeze .That's what happened here in San Antonio when this city got hit with over 70 hrs sub freezing temperatures with a low of 9F at one point . What a nightmare to every palm grower but surprisingly all Washingtonia Filiferas came back , even most Filibustas . Sabals just laugh at the cold.

I guess what you described about the duration of cold and lack of warm/sunny weather is why the palm might be toasted. I definitely support your statement. 

I was also assuming being wrapped for so long without heating sources it was just too much cold to handle without the chance of recover right after the freeze. 

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Jimhardy said:

Sometimes people forget this is a fun hobby.

 

Here it is last fall  after 18F ...even the cactus in the background survived and although

I wasn't planning on bringing them inside, after I saw them still alive after 18F I thought they deserved to be saved for what thats worth...

I dont really plan on keeping this palm or any of the others for to much longer and when you look at whats going on in the world now

I think many of the luxuries we have all enjoyed are going away soon and growing palms is certainly up there...but

 

 

 

 

It's definitely fun but digging out palms,  not so much.  I've had two Queens that died on me this year during the cold snap in January we had this year where temperatures got down to 19F . They were wrapped but this time it was a wet cold with freezing rain.  Anyway I dug one out thats been in the ground since May 2022. It wasn't that bad but it took me some time and man power to dig it out. Those roots were already growing a foot deep into the ground.  Imagine the rootball of a larger palm. 

Besides the fun of removing a palm tree it's a great hobby and you learn more about palms in general as well as some teaching lessons in meteorology and geography. It also can be nerve-wracking if you live in an area where temperatures come close to a palm's cold hardiness as I experienced myself when I was zone pushing.  I stopped doing that now lol I'll stick with the bred and butter palms that survive all cold snaps without severe damage.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with zone pushing as long as you know and accept that palm tree can be toasted sooner or later.  We have a lot of zone pushers from Texas here on PT it's very adventurous.  Me personally after I lost my Queens I can't take it emotionally anymore lol I'm a softy when it comes to that because I take good care of my palms and plants but most others just replace it like nothing ever happened . 

The yard is our comfort zone. 

[Jimhardy]

I had quite a few larger palms at the other place...unfortunately the pics went away when photo bucket went from 2.99

a month to 39.99 a month...hostage situation...I would'nt pay and wasn't computer savvy enough to save them all...

All the big palms were gone by the time these pics were taken....as far as removal of "large" palms (for to Iowa) or cacti/Yucca

leaving them in after death over the next winter makes them rot out from the cold wet and they are easier to remove....

so I got that going for me here haha

 

the Pachypodiums were obviously dug up before cold.

 

 

Edited February 19 by Jimhardy

[Jimhardy]

[Jimhardy]

East side of the house had some decent Tree ferns which I highly recommend trying if you have the right spot.

 

[Jimhardy]

Same Tree fern early last year....sorry,not trying to highjack thread!

[jwitt]

23 hours ago, RichardS said:

Hello, today I tried to unwrap my Washingtonia filifera, but I found it damaged. It was completely covered with frost cloth for almost three months and the lowest temperature it experienced was -9°C or 15°F for two nights in a row. The fronds were dry and bent to the side, so I had to cut them off.  What did I do wrong and most importantly, will it be fine?

Location: A small town approximately 30km from Bratislava, Slovakia (Zone 7b/8a).

The cause: These palms can "hibernate" for extremely long periods. This is naturally caused by drought,cold, and/or fire. I believe your palm was actively growing or nearly so when it was covered.  As stated by others, you really only needed to "protect" when the temp was below 20f or so. Not 3 months. 

Now your palm is in full hibernate mode, and probably a bit shocked.  To bring it out into active growth, you need strong sun and warmth. A plate of glass, or clear plastic above the plant will help this.  Water the soil when active growth is starting. 

I think it will be ok.

That said, some have provided disproven advice. These palms grow naturally in basically swamps. They can handle wet soil. In fact, the world's coldest surviving filifera sit with their roots in water.

Also, the world record cold survivors (NM/EL PASO) did not regrow unless they were given supplemental water/irrigation in2011.  There was no precipitation that year until early fall. Palms that recovered were in areas of supplemental irrigation( runoff, lawns, etc). 

Desert palm is a misnomer. 

Your palm needs sun,warmth, and moist soil upon resumption of growth. 

Even mirrors reflecting sunlight onto the plant are a good idea.  Do not cover again unless teens are predicted.

Good luck!

 

 

[RichardS]

6 minutes ago, jwitt said:

The cause: These palms can "hibernate" for extremely long periods. This is naturally caused by drought,cold, and/or fire. I believe your palm was actively growing or nearly so when it was covered.  As stated by others, you really only needed to "protect" when the temp was below 20f or so. Not 3 months. 

Now your palm is in full hibernate mode, and probably a bit shocked.  To bring it out into active growth, you need strong sun and warmth. A plate of glass, or clear plastic above the plant will help this.  Water the soil when active growth is starting. 

I think it will be ok.

That said, some have provided disproven advice. These palms grow naturally in basically swamps. They can handle wet soil. In fact, the world's coldest surviving filifera sit with their roots in water.

Also, the world record cold survivors (NM/EL PASO) did not regrow unless they were given supplemental water/irrigation in2011.  There was no precipitation that year until early fall. Palms that recovered were in areas of supplemental irrigation( runoff, lawns, etc). 

Desert palm is a misnomer. 

Your palm needs sun,warmth, and moist soil upon resumption of growth. 

Even mirrors reflecting sunlight onto the plant are a good idea.  Do not cover again unless teens are predicted.

Good luck!

 

 

Interesting. It did look very beaten up after I unwrapped it. I'll try to pour some 3% hydrogen peroxide into the spear to avoid further rot and I can try to find some clear plastic for the cover/roof to make sure no rain gets into the spear. The soil will have enough moisture either way as it got rain today and will get it again on friday for several days according to the forecast. Strong sun and warmth won't come that soon though. Even though there are no freezes expected in at least the upcoming 10 days, the daily highs will be up to 60F at best. The sun still isn't all that strong as it's just february and Bratislava is quite north which besides that also affects daylight duration. The first truly hot days will propably come in about 3 months or possibly sooner with some luck. I didn't think that having it covered for so long would be a problem since the temperatures were basically always under 60F outside of the growing season. I know that now, so hopefully it will recover and won't get damaged again. Thank you very much.

[MarcusH]

3 hours ago, jwitt said:

The cause: These palms can "hibernate" for extremely long periods. This is naturally caused by drought,cold, and/or fire. I believe your palm was actively growing or nearly so when it was covered.  As stated by others, you really only needed to "protect" when the temp was below 20f or so. Not 3 months. 

Now your palm is in full hibernate mode, and probably a bit shocked.  To bring it out into active growth, you need strong sun and warmth. A plate of glass, or clear plastic above the plant will help this.  Water the soil when active growth is starting. 

I think it will be ok.

That said, some have provided disproven advice. These palms grow naturally in basically swamps. They can handle wet soil. In fact, the world's coldest surviving filifera sit with their roots in water.

Also, the world record cold survivors (NM/EL PASO) did not regrow unless they were given supplemental water/irrigation in2011.  There was no precipitation that year until early fall. Palms that recovered were in areas of supplemental irrigation( runoff, lawns, etc). 

Desert palm is a misnomer. 

Your palm needs sun,warmth, and moist soil upon resumption of growth. 

Even mirrors reflecting sunlight onto the plant are a good idea.  Do not cover again unless teens are predicted.

Good luck!

 

 

Jim, you brought up some interesting facts , the idea with the mirror is one of my favorite ideas from you.  Did you try using the mirror in the past?  

[Jimhardy]

I agree with the idea of covering it in a small greenhouse like structure which you could make one

by putting some poles in and wrapping plastic around...they do need the soil temps to come up too(at least +50F)

I used to pull the mulch back on sunny days and let the sun warm the ground, think of it like a blanket for its feet(roots)

Its a labor of love and not for everyone ( ; 

[UK_Palms]

This is the furthest 'long term' Washingtonia from the equator in the world probably at 53.4N latitude near Liverpool in northwest England. It was planted very small and has been there since at least 2012 based on the street view images. It is bigger than it looks as it is planted below the wall line. Obviously it grows very slowly that far north and it doesn't get as much warmth, or sun, as it would in say London, Essex or Kent. I would hedge a bet that this Washingtonia has never once been watered and it is also planted into gravel/pebbles by the looks of things with pretty good drainage. Being close to a white-washed wall may help a bit too perhaps. Regardless, that is the way to go for exceptionally marginal climates.

 

Then again that area definitely exhibits a microclimate however, despite it's northern location (same latitude as Edmonton, Canada) since there are some pretty big CIDP's there nowadays too. This is one of the bigger ones in the Liverpool area. Of course moisture and drainage is less of an issue with Phoenix Canariensis, compared to say Washingtonia, in northern climates.

 

5 hours ago, jwitt said:

That said, some have provided disproven advice. These palms grow naturally in basically swamps. They can handle wet soil. In fact, the world's coldest surviving filifera sit with their roots in water.

Also, the world record cold survivors (NM/EL PASO) did not regrow unless they were given supplemental water/irrigation in2011.  There was no precipitation that year until early fall. Palms that recovered were in areas of supplemental irrigation( runoff, lawns, etc). 

Desert palm is a misnomer. 

Your palm needs sun,warmth, and moist soil upon resumption of growth. 

Even mirrors reflecting sunlight onto the plant are a good idea.  Do not cover again unless teens are predicted.

Good luck!

"Disproven advice" lol 

Okay, firstly I am well aware that Filifera grows with its roots submerged in water in parts of its native range. I am obviously not contesting that, however I was talking in the context of growing Filifera in temperate, northern latitudes such as the British Isles and continental Europe (specifically Slovakia). In which case, it is nothing like growing Filifera in SoCal, Arizona, New Mexico or Texas. Those places receive 3,000+ hours of sunshine each year, they get much warmer temperatures in late winter and spring, plus they experience long, hot summers for recovery. So again, let's consider the context of my previous post.

I'm not sure how many Washingtonia's you have ever grown in the UK, or Slovakia for that matter, but I am telling you right now that they will not tolerate wet, saturated soils with poor drainage in cooler, duller, wetter climates, ESPECIALLY after incurring a load of wet-cold damage and defoliation. That will just lead to a ton of fungal issues during any subsequent recovery attempt and the main growing point will end up rotting out completely. Just ask the PNW crew. How many big Filifera's are there in downtown Portland, or Seattle? I have experienced the crown rotting myself here after a freeze, where I struggle to keep Washingtonia's alive, despite the fact that I can drive just 45 minutes away and see 30 foot pristine specimens. 

The only real method of getting around this (in northern latitudes) is by growing them in areas with mild enough winters where they do not defoliate completely and you do not have these issues in the first place, which is the case with those bigger UK ones that I posted. They are in protected areas along the south/east coast of England or within London's UHI. Consequently drainage and wet-cold issues become less of an issue when they just don't have to deal with severe freeze damage and defoliations in general i.e. nothing below -4C / 25F. The wet-cold and fungal issues are exacerbated during the recovery phase after suffering severe cold damage and defoliation. So a Filifera with bad damage in a northern climate does NOT need any water in the crown and it certainly doesn't need irrigation. In fact the OP will NEVER need to water his Filifera there in Slovakia. I would advise caution in doing so.

Also 'desert palm' isn't really a misnomer as Filifera is clearly native to the desert regions of southern California, western Arizona and Baja California (Mexico), where it grows near springs or bodies of water. There are no native stands of Washingtonia outside of those listed desert environments. Some subpopulations may exist that have been spread by native Indians or enthusiasts/developers, such as those found in southern Utah, but again that is still a semi-arid/desert environment anyway. So by default it is a 'desert palm' that is only native to desert regions, even though it can still grow in cooler, temperate places such as the UK even.

 

[RichardS]

The summers in Bratislava are much hotter than anywhere in the UK. 30C or 86F is very common and pretty much almost the average high in july here. If that helps then might give it some space for recovery, but warm temperatures like this do not occour in early or mid spring. First hot days like that should come in may as I said. There is plenty of rain here especially in the winter, so I propably wouldn't worry about it not having enough water, the opposite in fact after what UK_Palms wrote. I'll try to build something like a roof from transparent plastic for it so that no water gets into the spear or anywhere on the palm. The soil will still get moisture since it will rain on some days, there's not much I can do about that. 

[Little Tex]

7 hours ago, MarcusH said:

It's definitely fun but digging out palms,  not so much.  I've had two Queens that died on me this year during the cold snap in January we had this year where temperatures got down to 19F . They were wrapped but this time it was a wet cold with freezing rain.  Anyway I dug one out thats been in the ground since May 2022. It wasn't that bad but it took me some time and man power to dig it out. Those roots were already growing a foot deep into the ground.  Imagine the rootball of a larger palm. 

Besides the fun of removing a palm tree it's a great hobby and you learn more about palms in general as well as some teaching lessons in meteorology and geography. It also can be nerve-wracking if you live in an area where temperatures come close to a palm's cold hardiness as I experienced myself when I was zone pushing.  I stopped doing that now lol I'll stick with the bred and butter palms that survive all cold snaps without severe damage.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with zone pushing as long as you know and accept that palm tree can be toasted sooner or later.  We have a lot of zone pushers from Texas here on PT it's very adventurous.  Me personally after I lost my Queens I can't take it emotionally anymore lol I'm a softy when it comes to that because I take good care of my palms and plants but most others just replace it like nothing ever happened . 

The yard is our comfort zone. 

you could just leave the stumps for bird houses 😂 

[Jimhardy]

If a book falls in the  forum and no one is there to read it, does it make a sound.?

 

xoxoxo

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Jim, you brought up some interesting facts , the idea with the mirror is one of my favorite ideas from you.  Did you try using the mirror in the past?  

Have not personally used mirrors, but I am professionally trained with them concerning solar radiation. 

My climate allows lighter colored soil, rocks to accomplish what plastic/ mirrors do in a more northerly cloudy climate.  

Just the greater diurnal temperatures dry things out. 

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, UK_Palms said:

This is the furthest 'long term' Washingtonia from the equator in the world probably at 53.4N latitude near Liverpool in northwest England. It was planted very small and has been there since at least 2012 based on the street view images. It is bigger than it looks as it is planted below the wall line. Obviously it grows very slowly that far north and it doesn't get as much warmth, or sun, as it would in say London, Essex or Kent. I would hedge a bet that this Washingtonia has never once been watered and it is also planted into gravel/pebbles by the looks of things with pretty good drainage. Being close to a white-washed wall may help a bit too perhaps. Regardless, that is the way to go for exceptionally marginal climates.

 

Then again that area definitely exhibits a microclimate however, despite it's northern location (same latitude as Edmonton, Canada) since there are some pretty big CIDP's there nowadays too. This is one of the bigger ones in the Liverpool area. Of course moisture and drainage is less of an issue with Phoenix Canariensis, compared to say Washingtonia, in northern climates.

 

"Disproven advice" lol 

Okay, firstly I am well aware that Filifera grows with its roots submerged in water in parts of its native range. I am obviously not contesting that, however I was talking in the context of growing Filifera in temperate, northern latitudes such as the British Isles and continental Europe (specifically Slovakia). In which case, it is nothing like growing Filifera in SoCal, Arizona, New Mexico or Texas. Those places receive 3,000+ hours of sunshine each year, they get much warmer temperatures in late winter and spring, plus they experience long, hot summers for recovery. So again, let's consider the context of my previous post.

I'm not sure how many Washingtonia's you have ever grown in the UK, or Slovakia for that matter, but I am telling you right now that they will not tolerate wet, saturated soils with poor drainage in cooler, duller, wetter climates, ESPECIALLY after incurring a load of wet-cold damage and defoliation. That will just lead to a ton of fungal issues during any subsequent recovery attempt and the main growing point will end up rotting out completely. Just ask the PNW crew. How many big Filifera's are there in downtown Portland, or Seattle? I have experienced the crown rotting myself here after a freeze, where I struggle to keep Washingtonia's alive, despite the fact that I can drive just 45 minutes away and see 30 foot pristine specimens. 

The only real method of getting around this (in northern latitudes) is by growing them in areas with mild enough winters where they do not defoliate completely and you do not have these issues in the first place, which is the case with those bigger UK ones that I posted. They are in protected areas along the south/east coast of England or within London's UHI. Consequently drainage and wet-cold issues become less of an issue when they just don't have to deal with severe freeze damage and defoliations in general i.e. nothing below -4C / 25F. The wet-cold and fungal issues are exacerbated during the recovery phase after suffering severe cold damage and defoliation. So a Filifera with bad damage in a northern climate does NOT need any water in the crown and it certainly doesn't need irrigation. In fact the OP will NEVER need to water his Filifera there in Slovakia. I would advise caution in doing so.

Also 'desert palm' isn't really a misnomer as Filifera is clearly native to the desert regions of southern California, western Arizona and Baja California (Mexico), where it grows near springs or bodies of water. There are no native stands of Washingtonia outside of those listed desert environments. Some subpopulations may exist that have been spread by native Indians or enthusiasts/developers, such as those found in southern Utah, but again that is still a semi-arid/desert environment anyway. So by default it is a 'desert palm' that is only native to desert regions, even though it can still grow in cooler, temperate places such as the UK even.

 

 

I basically gave the poster advice to cover his palm and increase its solar radiation. 

I never said anything about getting water in the crown.  Only the roots, and to state they like wet roots.  Actually their root system seek out wet roots. 

Maybe they don't like wet acidic roots.  

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

Have not personally used mirrors, but I am professionally trained with them concerning solar radiation. 

My climate allows lighter colored soil, rocks to accomplish what plastic/ mirrors do in a more northerly cloudy climate.  

Just the greater diurnal temperatures dry things out. 

I see , I guess I have learned something new today.  I wonder by how much you can increase the temperature on that palm under ideal conditions .

[Jimhardy]

When I had my Washy covered at the other house it got up to 117F in there one spring day

and it was fine, they can take the heat!  The roots were cold  but the tissue was willing.

[jwitt]

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I see , I guess I have learned something new today.  I wonder by how much you can increase the temperature on that palm under ideal conditions .

If done right, you could make superheated steam and run a turbine @500c.

Juan Tabo Blvd in ABQ

Edited February 20 by jwitt

[RichardS]

Done the protection today, couldn't get to it sooner unfortunately. Now the crown will be protected from rain, but it will still allow sun to shine through it.

There is still some green around the spear. I poured a decent amount of 3% hydrogen peroxide into it, so that the rot and mold won't spread more.

Seems like the long protection and humidity allowed for some of it to spread before.

Just for comparison, this is how it looked at the end of november. Hopefully it will soon look similar, but taller.

[Chester B]

I have some experience with filifera and winter.  They absolutely hate winter humidity.  I bet the lack of airflow had a major cause in the state of the palm.  I had one in a pot for a few years, and tried different methods of keeping it looking good in winter to no avail.  My final year with it I had it on my front porch so that it did not receive any rain or precipitation of any kind.  Minimum temps it saw was 32F/0C.  Winters are very wet and high humidity, and even with it in a pot in well draining soil, never cold and never rained on, by spring it was covered in black spots and had lost most of its fronds.  In the future if you're protecting a filifera I really think you need to open it up from time to time on warm days to allow airflow in there.  Robustas can handle humidity much better and seem to be one of those palms that you can box up.  Those are my thoughts.  Good luck.

[jwitt]

@RichardS

You want the sun rays perpendicular (90°) to the glass so the glass has the least effect on the energy.  So winter time at 50 degrees latitude calls for about a 65° angle in a south direction.  Whatever your latitude is, add 15 for you winter sun angle.  Just a suggestion. I like what you did. 

65 is a steep angle and we are heading out of winter, so you are actually probably good with an angle of 50-60°. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant!

65°  angle pic

[RichardS]

35 minutes ago, jwitt said:

@RichardS

You want the sun rays perpendicular (90°) to the glass so the glass has the least effect on the energy.  So winter time at 50 degrees latitude calls for about a 65° angle in a south direction.  Whatever your latitude is, add 15 for you winter sun angle.  Just a suggestion. I like what you did. 

65 is a steep angle and we are heading out of winter, so you are actually probably good with an angle of 50-60°. 

Sunlight is the best disinfectant!

65°  angle pic

Yeah, It would definitely be better to have a 90° angle towards the sun, however then the rain would definitely get blown into the crown. It would maybe work with a bigger glass plate, which I originally wanted, but they had these and then only really massive ones that woudn't even fit in the car. And since the glass plate is so small and the sun still isn't very high up, the sun rays may even hit the crown without even having to shine through the glass. That won't be the case later when that sun is higher up, but at least it won't create shade.

[Foxpalms]

@UK_Palms This one has been growing unprotected at 55N in the UK. Im not sure about filifera but robusta dominant hybrids or pure robustas will take -5 to -6c in north west London without spear pull during their once every 10 year freeze. The ones in the urban areas just north of RAF northolt all survived last winter. I drove past a few of those palms a few weeks ago and they all looked fine with a bit of damage but not lethal amount.

Edited February 23 by Foxpalms