Texas Palms

[UK_Palms]

@fr8train @MarcusH How cold did it actually get there last winter in San Antonio to defoliate them like that? I didn't think you guys had to deal with anything major last winter, unlike in the 20/21 winter and the 22/23 winter.

My small CIDP didn't defoliate last winter and that is with no protection out in the rural countryside with zero UHI. I probably saw 19-20F on two separate nights, when central London went down to about 26F, in what was otherwise a pretty mild winter generally speaking. So you guys must have had colder than 18-19F to defoliate those things!

[fr8train]

16 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@fr8train @MarcusH How cold did it actually get there last winter in San Antonio to defoliate them like that? I didn't think you guys had to deal with anything major last winter, unlike in the 20/21 winter and the 22/23 winter.

My small CIDP didn't defoliate last winter and that is with no protection out in the rural countryside with zero UHI. I probably saw 19-20F on two separate nights, when central London went down to about 26F, in what was otherwise a pretty mild winter generally speaking. So you guys must have had colder than 18-19F to defoliate those things!

The palms I posted are in Fair Oaks Ranch, which is a suburb of San Antonio that usually gets a few degrees colder than the city itself. I think the elevation is twice that of the city itself.

According to this, the lowest temp during the 23/24 winter was 12F (-11C) here, so that's what zapped them. 

https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/fair-oaks-ranch/78015/january-weather/2144718?year=2024

 

 

[Robert Cade Ross]

2 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

 

I wasn’t under the impression they could take much cold. There are plenty in Tampa this size, but not a whole lot bigger since the 2010 freeze outright killed most when it hit 25f. I figured the recent freezes in TX would have surely killed them here too. 

I don’t recall them being anything out of the ordinary to grow here lol . People seem to grow them regardless around Houston’s and points south with the knowledge that they *MIGHT* perish cheep annuls lol 

[fr8train]

It's really unfortunate that Texas is so prone to these cold snaps only a handful of times a year. Otherwise coconut palms could probably grow here. 

At least there's a lot of heat, so the cold hardy palms that can make it seem to grow pretty quickly. Here are a few before and afters of how quickly Sabals grow here. The first is 2011 vs last week. The second is a Sabal uresana in 2016 vs earlier this summer. 

[MarcusH]

21 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

@fr8train @MarcusH How cold did it actually get there last winter in San Antonio to defoliate them like that? I didn't think you guys had to deal with anything major last winter, unlike in the 20/21 winter and the 22/23 winter.

My small CIDP didn't defoliate last winter and that is with no protection out in the rural countryside with zero UHI. I probably saw 19-20F on two separate nights, when central London went down to about 26F, in what was otherwise a pretty mild winter generally speaking. So you guys must have had colder than 18-19F to defoliate those things!

I moved here in late November 2021 so winter 2021/2022 it only got down to 28F . No defoliation there.  But December 2022 it got down to 16F then January 2024 it was 18F cold . On those two winters CIDPs completely defoliated.  

[MarcusH]

Just now, fr8train said:

It's really unfortunate that Texas is so prone to these cold snaps only a handful of times a year. Otherwise coconut palms could probably grow here. 

At least there's a lot of heat, so the cold hardy palms that can make it seem to grow pretty quickly. Here are a few before and afters of how quickly Sabals grow here. The first is 2011 vs last week. The second is a Sabal uresana in 2016 vs earlier this summer. 

 

 

Would love to see so many more Sabal Mexicana and Palmettos planted all over the place,  mixed with Filiferas here in San Antonio.  We're on the right track as I can see. 

[ChrisA]

Marcus, those Sylvesters lost everything but the inner spear last January. They looked terrible. They don’t yet have as big or as nice a crown as they did 2 years ago but hopefully this year they, along with all the canariensis and dactyliferas, can maintain and hit the ground running next spring!

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, ChrisA said:

Marcus, those Sylvesters lost everything but the inner spear last January. They looked terrible. They don’t yet have as big or as nice a crown as they did 2 years ago but hopefully this year they, along with all the canariensis and dactyliferas, can maintain and hit the ground running next spring!

For a pinnate palm they recover very fast. We need a stretch of 9a winters to heal all the wounds that these few past winters caused . 

[Meangreen94z]

3 hours ago, fr8train said:

It's really unfortunate that Texas is so prone to these cold snaps only a handful of times a year. Otherwise coconut palms could probably grow here. 

At least there's a lot of heat, so the cold hardy palms that can make it seem to grow pretty quickly. Here are a few before and afters of how quickly Sabals grow here. The first is 2011 vs last week. The second is a Sabal uresana in 2016 vs earlier this summer. 

I have a few pictures of that palm at different stages , some of them courtesy of Oscar Contreras.

January 2016May 2020Septmber 2022September 2024

[Robert Cade Ross]

3 hours ago, fr8train said:

It's really unfortunate that Texas is so prone to these cold snaps only a handful of times a year. Otherwise coconut palms could probably grow here. 

At least there's a lot of heat, so the cold hardy palms that can make it seem to grow pretty quickly. Here are a few before and afters of how quickly Sabals grow here. The first is 2011 vs last week. The second is a Sabal uresana in 2016 vs earlier this summer. 

I saw that uresana last month it’s impressive how fast the growth rate is ! 

[fr8train]

14 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

I have a few pictures of that palm at different stages , some of them courtesy of Oscar Contreras.

January 2016May 2020Septmber 2022September 2024

Very cool to see it through all of these stages. I really liked the way it looked when the old bases of the fronds were all green, it made it look like something out of Jurassic Park. 

[PA-TX2024]

Got some more impressive Robusta survivors up here in the Kyle area. Sorry for the camera quality. I couldn't get a pic of the other one so I pulled it up from Google Maps.  

[conceptualizeme]

What kind of lows did they see? I think there was significant die-off of Robusta in places like Houston where it went below 14-15f or so that Xenon compiled into a map last year.

[Chester B]

19F at my house last year and my neighbors very large CIDP took about 75% damage to the fronds. They look great today and not like the ugly ones I see around mostly. 
 

Robustas had damage to all but the center spears. Filifera heavy palm about 50%. 

[Meangreen94z]

5 hours ago, fr8train said:

Very cool to see it through all of these stages. I really liked the way it looked when the old bases of the fronds were all green, it made it look like something out of Jurassic Park. 

Oscar said they were green up until the 2021 freeze

[fr8train]

Here are a few photos from last night at the Botanical Gardens. I've never seen bananas fruit here. 

[fr8train]

Here are a few more from today's bike ride. @MarcusH I passed through the park you posted earlier without planning on doing so. The bike path ran though there. 

A lot of the palms along this trail looked like they had been set on fire. I'm assuming vagrants did that? Most of the ride was kinda sketchy. 

[fr8train]

16 minutes ago, Meangreen94z said:

Oscar said they were green up until the 2021 freeze

I wonder how long they would have kept that color if not for that freeze.

It's interesting, the first photo you posted it looked a little bit more silver. Now it looks very green. 

[Meangreen94z]

1 hour ago, fr8train said:

I wonder how long they would have kept that color if not for that freeze.

It's interesting, the first photo you posted it looked a little bit more silver. Now it looks very green. 

It depends which angle you take pictures from . It showed pretty good silver on the newer fronds when I saw it in September. 

[Ben G.]

1 hour ago, fr8train said:

Here are a few more from today's bike ride. @MarcusH I passed through the park you posted earlier without planning on doing so. The bike path ran though there. 

A lot of the palms along this trail looked like they had been set on fire. I'm assuming vagrants did that? Most of the ride was kinda sketchy. 

Looks like some neat scenery...even if it was a bit sketchy.

[PA-TX2024]

2 hours ago, fr8train said:

Here are a few more from today's bike ride. @MarcusH I passed through the park you posted earlier without planning on doing so. The bike path ran though there. 

A lot of the palms along this trail looked like they had been set on fire. I'm assuming vagrants did that? Most of the ride was kinda sketchy. 

I love seeing new Robusta installations.

[fr8train]

1 hour ago, Ben G. said:

Looks like some neat scenery...even if it was a bit sketchy.

It was. The park was nice. The trail west of there had a lot what looked like volunteer palms, and many looked like they had been on fire. Some of the palms in the park itself too. The biggest mexicana in the photos above had an especially odd burn mark all up one side of its trunk, and the leaning palmetto looked like it was the only survivor of a cluster that had burned. I should have taken better photos. Maybe this was a controlled burn? Idk.

I say sketchy as there was one section of the trail where I didn't pass anyone but stray dogs and a few homeless people hanging out for probably 20 minutes. Kinda unusual for a Sunday in the 70s. This was one the last sections of trail I've ridden on. I have one small section left now and I can say I've biked everything here, that I'm aware of anyway. 🚲 💨 

[MarcusH]

13 hours ago, fr8train said:

Here are a few more from today's bike ride. @MarcusH I passed through the park you posted earlier without planning on doing so. The bike path ran though there. 

A lot of the palms along this trail looked like they had been set on fire. I'm assuming vagrants did that? Most of the ride was kinda sketchy. 

I give you a 2 thumbs up for riding your  bike through that area. Not your life was in danger or anything but I had that uncomfortable feeling being surrounded by sketchy people when I was there. It's the Westside.  I think some of the trunks were marked with gang related signs . I also noticed the mishandling of some palms unfortunately.  A nice area to go see a good amount of palms is El Monte district.  If you drive along Woodlawn Ave,  there's a stretch of lined up palms on both sides that reminds me of Beverly Hills.  But thank you for sharing more pictures of palms in San Antonio.  

[MarcusH]

If you guys need some company to explore more palm trees in the SA , we can exchange phone numbers.  I think that would be a good idea to share your hobby with someone else.  Just my opinion.  I already met @Ben G. from this area so far.  PM if you're interested.  

[Robert Cade Ross]

Groundwork’s - Alvin yesterday Sylvester  date palms looking great now . Probably fried again in 4 weeks lol 

[Chester B]

16 hours ago, Robert Cade Ross said:

Groundwork’s - Alvin yesterday Sylvester  date palms looking great now . Probably fried again in 4 weeks lol 

All the Sylvesters near me bronzed off last year but looked great by mid summer.  A house a few down from me has two.  They seem to be pretty tough palms in our climate.

[NBTX11]

On 11/30/2024 at 3:33 PM, UK_Palms said:

I notice all the CIDP's you post around SA have tiny stunted crowns, and as a result, the trunks look huge and fat because the crowns are so much smaller than they should be. At first I was wondering why the trunks were all so fat on the CIDP's you posted, but it is actually only in relation to the dwarfed crowns/foliage. Is that from the 2021 freeze damage still? Or are they struggling for other reasons?

I am well aware that CIDP are tough as nails and won't really die where you are (providing lethal bronzing doesn't get them) but at the same time they clearly don't look right. I have honestly never seen such small fronds growing out of such fat CIDP trunks. It's kind of bizarre looking. The trunks are no doubt normal size, but it gives off a different perception due to those tiny, sickly crowns. 🤔

The San Antonio CIDP looked wonderful with big massive crowns prior to 2021 and for many years prior to that. The past few winters have had 2-3 defoliating freezes, and they take up to 2 years to recover. If there are no bad freezes this winter they will look great by mid summer next year

[NBTX11]

On 12/1/2024 at 9:34 PM, fr8train said:

o. The biggest mexicana in the photos above had an especially odd burn mark all up one side of its trunk

Lightning damage

[NBTX11]

On 11/30/2024 at 5:57 PM, UK_Palms said:

@fr8train @MarcusH How cold did it actually get there last winter in San Antonio to defoliate them like that? I didn't think you guys had to deal with anything major last winter, unlike in the 20/21 winter and the 22/23 winter.

My small CIDP didn't defoliate last winter and that is with no protection out in the rural countryside with zero UHI. I probably saw 19-20F on two separate nights, when central London went down to about 26F, in what was otherwise a pretty mild winter generally speaking. So you guys must have had colder than 18-19F to defoliate those things!

San Antonio is a very large city. There’s significant elevation on the north and NW side of city and those areas get much colder than downtown and other warm areas of city.  Just a guess, but I would think those areas get 5-7 degrees colder than downtown in an average winter. 

[Fusca]

14 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

San Antonio is a very large city. There’s significant elevation on the north and NW side of city and those areas get much colder than downtown and other warm areas of city.  Just a guess, but I would think those areas get 5-7 degrees colder than downtown in an average winter. 

The temperature differences are certainly there.  You might be aware of this already but one of the local San Antonio TV stations gives daily weather forecast for 4 unique zones of the city.

[fr8train]

48 minutes ago, NBTX11 said:

Lightning damage

That's interesting, I didn't think of that. I've not seen that kind of burn damage anywhere else though. I think there were 10+ burned palms in a pretty small area. Maybe that area is more prone to lightning strikes. 

[NBTX11]

I lost a very large Filifera to a lightning strike and it left a black streak up one side of trunk. It never recovered. 

[Chester B]

A few houses down from me. Filifera leaning Washingtonia and in the lower right one of the sylvestris I was referring to.