Texas Palms

[amh]

9 minutes ago, fr8train said:

Here are a few from a bike ride yesterday. This is the first time I've seen a citrus tree with fruit on it down here. The euro fan palm volunteer is a first too.

There was a nice orange tree off of North Walnut Avenue and Bridge Street in New Braunfels, but it is probably dead after 2021. There was also an orchard of various mandarins/satsumas at Gardenville, but they are likely gone.

[MarcusH]

On 1/3/2025 at 8:55 AM, Chester B said:

That Bismack is at Enchanted Forest.  It's so dumb with the two nurseries basically having the same name.  

I've been getting around a bit more into some older Houston neighborhoods.  I'm seeing some really big Non Washy/Non Sabal palms but nothing exotic.  Very large Chamaerops, Tall Butias and big Livistona chinensis but not much beyond that.  There's also the odd Trachy, mule and newer queens.

I do drive by this really nice tree sized Yucca in Pasadena, its huge.  They're not common around here at all.

If you like desert plants we got tons of it since our climate is more semi dry . We're 3 hours closer to the desert. Whenever you get to San Antonio give me a call.

[amh]

@fr8trainIf you are ever out on the far northeast side, you might want to check out Gardenville, I haven't been there in some time, but there were very interesting plants growing at the homestead.  

https://www.plantanswers.com/Heroes/Beck/Malcolm-Beck.asp

[ahosey01]

4 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

If you like desert plants we got tons of it since our climate is more semi dry . We're 3 hours closer to the desert. Whenever you get to San Antonio give me a call.

This is true, and the further Southwest you go, the better it gets.  The single most underrated place in Texas for xeric plants and a weird amalgamation of neotropic, desert and thornscrub flora is Laredo and surrounding Webb County.  Places like Terrell County and El Paso are also cool for a myriad of reasons, but Laredo is in a class all its own in terms of interesting variety of natives and non-natives from all kinds of diverse bioregions.

 

[fr8train]

29 minutes ago, amh said:

@fr8trainIf you are ever out on the far northeast side, you might want to check out Gardenville, I haven't been there in some time, but there were very interesting plants growing at the homestead.  

https://www.plantanswers.com/Heroes/Beck/Malcolm-Beck.asp

I'll have to check this out, thank you. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

That Royal is definitely long gone sadly lol … 

[Robert Cade Ross]

New hybrid washys planted in Webster the parking lot already had about a dozen pure robsutas …

[Chester B]

@fr8train that citrus is a Poncirus - zone 5 hardy.  I can tell by the little leaves.  A lot of citrus are grown on dwarf Poncirus rootstock and when the cold wipes out the graft, then the Poncirus takes over.

[Chester B]

17 hours ago, MarcusH said:

If you like desert plants we got tons of it since our climate is more semi dry . We're 3 hours closer to the desert. Whenever you get to San Antonio give me a call.

Saturday March 8 I'll likely be in San Antonio

[_nevi]

18 hours ago, fr8train said:

Here are a few from a bike ride yesterday. This is the first time I've seen a citrus tree with fruit on it down here. The euro fan palm volunteer is a first too.

I wonder if that's actual citrus, or just rootstock.

[fr8train]

4 minutes ago, _nevi said:

I wonder if that's actual citrus, or just rootstock.

I'm not familiar with this. What does it mean vs a standard citrus? 

7 minutes ago, Chester B said:

@fr8train that citrus is a Poncirus - zone 5 hardy.  I can tell by the little leaves.  A lot of citrus are grown on dwarf Poncirus rootstock and when the cold wipes out the graft, then the Poncirus takes over.

No way. That's really cool. So I could have grown something like that in Ohio? I've never heard of that variety. I don't know much about citrus, other than I remember seeing a lot of them when I lived in Arizona, and whole neighborhoods would smell amazing when they'd bloom. 

[Fusca]

37 minutes ago, fr8train said:

I'm not familiar with this. What does it mean vs a standard citrus? 

No way. That's really cool. So I could have grown something like that in Ohio? I've never heard of that variety. I don't know much about citrus, other than I remember seeing a lot of them when I lived in Arizona, and whole neighborhoods would smell amazing when they'd bloom. 

@Chester B is correct.  I don't know the scientific names of specific citrus rootstock that is typically used but I know it generally as "sour orange".  When I lived in Houston a decade ago there was a mature fruit bearing satsuma on the property I purchased.  I didn't notice until the fruit started maturing the first winter but there were two different looking fruits from the same tree.  I looked closer and saw that the large branch producing the larger fruits was coming from BELOW the graft.  I immediately suspected that those larger fruits were sour and they were!  I ended up cutting off that branch which made up roughly 1/3 of the total foliage.  Apparently the previous owner who installed the tree left some new growth from below the graft continue after a bad freeze (likely from 2010).  They should have cut back all new growth from below the graft.  Had the freeze wiped out the desirable satsuma and the only new growth following the freeze was from the rootstock, the only fruits that would be produced would be sour.  It would be ornamental but not good for eating other than producing marmalade.  That specific rootstock Poncirus might be possible in southern Ohio if it's zone 5 hardy but probably not easy to find except for grafting.

[Chester B]

Poncirus trifoliata is what they use for rootstock because its so hardy.  I grew Poncirus in Ontario, Canada.  The fruit is terrible and not even worth using as a seasoning.  Its a primitive citrus.  Most people grow the "Flying Dragon" variant because its such an interesting looking plant.

There are many other Hardy types of citrus, but most are used for seasoning and not for fresh eating.  Yuzu is probably the most common.

[Xenon]

16 minutes ago, Fusca said:

@Chester B is correct.  I don't know the scientific names of specific citrus rootstock that is typically used but I know it generally as "sour orange".  When I lived in Houston a decade ago there was a mature fruit bearing satsuma on the property I purchased.  I didn't notice until the fruit started maturing the first winter but there were two different looking fruits from the same tree.  I looked closer and saw that the large branch producing the larger fruits was coming from BELOW the graft.  I immediately suspected that those larger fruits were sour and they were!  I ended up cutting off that branch which made up roughly 1/3 of the total foliage.  Apparently the previous owner who installed the tree left some new growth from below the graft continue after a bad freeze (likely from 2010).  They should have cut back all new growth from below the graft.  Had the freeze wiped out the desirable satsuma and the only new growth following the freeze was from the rootstock, the only fruits that would be produced would be sour.  It would be ornamental but not good for eating other than producing marmalade.  That specific rootstock Poncirus might be possible in southern Ohio if it's zone 5 hardy but probably not easy to find except for grafting.

All of the Houston citrus suppliers use either Carrizo or Kuharske citrange rootstock which is a hybrid of trifoliate orange (not a true Citrus) and 'Washington' navel orange. IIRC, citrandarin (trifoliate x mandarin) or pure trifoliate might be used for kumquats. 

The standard rootstock in the RGV is sour orange which is a true Citrus (it's a complex mandarin-pummelo hybrid). Same sour orange or naranja agria used for cooking, marmalade, etc. You would NOT want to use citrange even for those purposes, it has a nasty off taste. 

[amh]

Looking closer at the picture, it is a trifoliate hybrid. There is a second tree to the left, just out of frame that may be a second rootstock.

I find pure trifoliate to have a decent taste, just sour, I haven't noticed the bitter flavor and I am a supertaster. 

[Fusca]

6 minutes ago, amh said:

I haven't noticed the bitter flavor and I am a supertaster. 

Aaron, I didn't know you had super powers!  😄

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

All of the Houston citrus suppliers use either Carrizo or Kuharske citrange rootstock which is a hybrid of trifoliate orange (not a true Citrus) and 'Washington' navel orange. IIRC, citrandarin (trifoliate x mandarin) or pure trifoliate might be used for kumquats. 

The standard rootstock in the RGV is sour orange which is a true Citrus (it's a complex mandarin-pummelo hybrid). Same sour orange or naranja agria used for cooking, marmalade, etc. You would NOT want to use citrange even for those purposes, it has a nasty off taste. 

Whatever the rootstock was on my tree, the marmalade that I made from its fruit turned out pretty good.  👍  But then again my sense of smell and taste are not the best.  Maybe the original plant was illegally imported?  LOL 

[amh]

1 minute ago, Fusca said:

Aaron, I didn't know you had super powers!  😄

Only cynicism. 

I don't care for some bitter foods and the PTC test actually burned. Surprisingly, getting my mouth washed out with soap as a child did not curb my use of curse words.

[amh]

1 hour ago, Fusca said:

@Chester B is correct.  I don't know the scientific names of specific citrus rootstock that is typically used but I know it generally as "sour orange".  When I lived in Houston a decade ago there was a mature fruit bearing satsuma on the property I purchased.  I didn't notice until the fruit started maturing the first winter but there were two different looking fruits from the same tree.  I looked closer and saw that the large branch producing the larger fruits was coming from BELOW the graft.  I immediately suspected that those larger fruits were sour and they were!  I ended up cutting off that branch which made up roughly 1/3 of the total foliage.  Apparently the previous owner who installed the tree left some new growth from below the graft continue after a bad freeze (likely from 2010).  They should have cut back all new growth from below the graft.  Had the freeze wiped out the desirable satsuma and the only new growth following the freeze was from the rootstock, the only fruits that would be produced would be sour.  It would be ornamental but not good for eating other than producing marmalade.  That specific rootstock Poncirus might be possible in southern Ohio if it's zone 5 hardy but probably not easy to find except for grafting.

I'm not sure what rootstock was used on that tree, but pure trifoliate is about the size of a golf ball and a little fuzzy. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

I don’t see any freeze damage on the hibiscus, even my neighbors large in ground fiddle leaf fig is not affected as of now hopefully tonight is the same 🤞🤞 30° again 

[Chester B]

I don't even think I went below freezing last night.  Banana and Cannas have varying degrees of browning.  Hibiscus look great and Heliconia have some spotting on only some of the leaves.

[Robert Cade Ross]

Night two update 🫡

[Swolte]

Speaking of citrus, has anyone grown and tried the Arctic Frost Satsuma for a few years already? I heard they need time before they are hardy in the ground. I am trying one this hopefully lucky year. How could I not, being so close to A&M where it was in part 'developed'?!

I placed it under one of the 'tents' now (apologies for the poor pic)

[Xenon]

34 minutes ago, Swolte said:

Speaking of citrus, has anyone grown and tried the Arctic Frost Satsuma for a few years already? I heard they need time before they are hardy in the ground. I am trying one this hopefully lucky year. How could I not, being so close to A&M where it was in part 'developed'?!

I placed it under one of the 'tents' now (apologies for the poor pic)

 

I planted its sibling 'Orange Frost' in Oct 2023 and just 3 months later it experienced the nasty advective 17 degree freeze in January 2024. It defoliated and suffered a tiny bit of tip dieback but otherwise no lasting damage. Leafed out in spring and grew like nothing happened. A larger 'Bloomsweet' grapefruit died back to 6 inches above the graft.

I heard 'Orange Frost' tastes better so that's why I picked it over 'Arctic Frost'. The leaves are also a little more emerald green (vs dusty green) and satsuma-like. They say 'Arctic Frost' is slightly more hardy. 

I think their temperature rating is for a quick radiational type freeze to 12-14F. An advective event like Houston 2021 below 15-16F will freeze them below the graft or to the roots if not grafted.

[Xerarch]

On 1/6/2025 at 2:00 PM, Xenon said:

All of the Houston citrus suppliers use either Carrizo or Kuharske citrange rootstock which is a hybrid of trifoliate orange (not a true Citrus) and 'Washington' navel orange. IIRC, citrandarin (trifoliate x mandarin) or pure trifoliate might be used for kumquats. 

The standard rootstock in the RGV is sour orange which is a true Citrus (it's a complex mandarin-pummelo hybrid). Same sour orange or naranja agria used for cooking, marmalade, etc. You would NOT want to use citrange even for those purposes, it has a nasty off taste. 

All of the citrus here, at least where I have been able to determine the rootstock, is Carrizo, and I wish I could have sour orange.  Carrizo is not the best for high pH soils, that's why they don't use it in the valley.  In general the Carrizo has been ok regardless, but I do see some symptoms of iron or other nutrient deficiency.  I don't know if it's just quarantine or what that we can't seem to source sour orange from the valley. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

 From the icebox , Alvin post freeze lol and an ancient cidp  …

[computadude]

I left all my palms (including young washies and queen palms) completely unprotected last night. Forecast was 30 degrees and according to my weather station, it actually dipped down to 26.7, so they were exposed to below 30 temps for about 5 hours. Now it's 46 and rising. There's no visible damage at this point, but we'll see if any of the fronds will turn burn in the next couple of days / weeks. 

Sorry I posted it in the wrong thread.

Edited January 9 by computadude
wrong thread

[Ben G.]

I found a large dactylifera survivor just Southwest of Cibolo TX today, along with another that lost its main trunk but not it's off-shoots:

Not a high quality photo, but it was the best I could do from my car, without holding up traffic.

🙂

[RedRabbit]

Ambitious plantings in Sugar Land.

[PA-TX2024]

6 hours ago, RedRabbit said:

Ambitious plantings in Sugar Land.

Interesting choice for someone to plant Royals in this part of Texas.

[RedRabbit]

9 hours ago, PA-TX2024 said:

Interesting choice for someone to plant Royals in this part of Texas.

The royals are a long shot, but the Veitchia are outright delusional. I’m guessing the whole yard dies after next week’s cold front.

For the record, this is located at:

2140 Hagerson Rd

Sugar Land, TX 77479

[fr8train]

Few more volunteers from today's bike ride.

[PA-TX2024]

Looks like this may be my area's extreme minimum. Hopefully it doesn't get any colder than this continuing on.  🙏

[MarcusH]

6 hours ago, PA-TX2024 said:

Looks like this may be my area's extreme minimum. Hopefully it doesn't get any colder than this continuing on.  🙏

I personally wouldn't worry about it. It isn't going to be as cold as it was in recent years. I moved to SA three years ago and the lows I have seen so far were 16 and 18 degrees at the lowest each winter. I'm still waiting to get data from this winter. I lost two Queens overall but that should have been expected.  Worst case scenario is we will see some palms get defoliate again. That's it.  8b / 9a winters are the norm not 9b in our area. 

[ChrisA]

5 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I personally wouldn't worry about it. It isn't going to be as cold as it was in recent years. I moved to SA three years ago and the lows I have seen so far were 16 and 18 degrees at the lowest each winter. I'm still waiting to get data from this winter. I lost two Queens overall but that should have been expected.  Worst case scenario is we will see some palms get defoliate again. That's it.  8b / 9a winters are the norm not 9b in our area. 

Don’t jinx us Marcus.

[MarcusH]

3 hours ago, ChrisA said:

Don’t jinx us Marcus.

Lol I'm not pretending to be the weather man but "if" we get another 2021 winter this year I think a lot of PT growers in Texas can kiss goodbye to zone pushed palms for good.  The handful of Queens that survived in the Houston area would be history as well as the few pure Robustas left in SA . We certainly don't need a winter in the single digits or even low teens. That would downgrade SA more to a 8a/8b zone and Houston 8b/9a. Everything can happen and if that's the case it will change Texas vegetation for good due to colder winters in future.

[PA-TX2024]

Please don't get colder than this.

[ChrisA]

7 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Lol I'm not pretending to be the weather man but "if" we get another 2021 winter this year I think a lot of PT growers in Texas can kiss goodbye to zone pushed palms for good.  The handful of Queens that survived in the Houston area would be history as well as the few pure Robustas left in SA . We certainly don't need a winter in the single digits or even low teens. That would downgrade SA more to a 8a/8b zone and Houston 8b/9a. Everything can happen and if that's the case it will change Texas vegetation for good due to colder winters in future.

I’m nervous for my Queen and the grid.  I’m going to protect again the Queen and my little robustas, just in case.  I think your pitch for sabals is really smart.  If we plant sabal-heavy then we’ll always have nice palms to look at.  It would be nice if we stayed above 20F. In the even longer term it looks like continued cool/cold weather is going to dominate the eastern half of the country through the end of the month.  Seems once these patterns set up it takes a literal act of God to change them. But we’ll see!

I do know once spring comes around we will watch the month after month of extreme/record heat and exceptional drought return.  That is also a favorite weather pattern nowadays. 😂 Sorry to sound sound blah, wanted one normal winter but that seems to not be in the cards.

Good luck to your robustas.  Are you going to protect them?

[MarcusH]

10 hours ago, ChrisA said:

I’m nervous for my Queen and the grid.  I’m going to protect again the Queen and my little robustas, just in case.  I think your pitch for sabals is really smart.  If we plant sabal-heavy then we’ll always have nice palms to look at.  It would be nice if we stayed above 20F. In the even longer term it looks like continued cool/cold weather is going to dominate the eastern half of the country through the end of the month.  Seems once these patterns set up it takes a literal act of God to change them. But we’ll see!

I do know once spring comes around we will watch the month after month of extreme/record heat and exceptional drought return.  That is also a favorite weather pattern nowadays. 😂 Sorry to sound sound blah, wanted one normal winter but that seems to not be in the cards.

Good luck to your robustas.  Are you going to protect them?

No, no you make perfect sense and your worries are justified.  I'm the same way.  As of right now I don't see alarming temperatures on the horizon 24f near Windcrest I don't know where you're located but I'm usually around 1 degree colder than downtown SA.  

Keep in mind that none of us is growing pure Robustas they're all hybrids Robusta leaning (better cold hardiness).  I'm not going to protect any of my palms, same as I did last year. Only the ones that hasn't been in the ground for more than a year but only if temperatures drop below 18f . So far nothing alarming but things can change . Whatever won't survive in my yard will be replaced by Washingtonia Filifera.  

The best large inexpensive and easy to get  palm and ever green looking palm is the Washingtonia Filifera for the San Antonio metro area.  For more money Sabal Palmetto/Mexicana are the best choice in my opinion.  They remained green even after February 2021. 

Right now I don't see a good future for Queen palms in SA . I think Texas is getting hotter in summer and colder in winter.  

[ChrisA]

Thanks Marcus, I’m glad I’m not alone in this.  I was thinking of protecting my Queen again, but no, it’s going to have to face reality if the weather gets too cold.  Besides it is fairly closely planted to a filifera which I considered removing.  I’m definitely leaving that tree and the Queen can either make it or not.  It’s still small enough I could rip it out with my hands if it dies.  I live near Mahncke Park, just a ways northeast of the Pearl on  higher ground. For radiational cold I’m about a degree or two warmer than the airport and just as cold during advective events with little shelter to the northern wind as I’m near the top of a ridge.

 

I know some may think us Texans are whiny about a bit of cold when the low now shows 24F but the fear isn’t that temp, it’s that there is absolutely nothing in the way to block the temperatures found one or two more states north of us, that’s what happened in 2021.  If the atmospheric dynamics direct that deepest core of cold it will not moderate much and would put us in a deep freeze.

 

Gonna keep watching this system and see what happens. I need more Sabal palms in my life, and more native plants!