Texas Palms

[PA-TX2024]

Filifera on the right just started seeding for the first time ever. It started in July.

[Ben G.]

I visited Aquatica in San Antonio recently, and I was curious to see what surviving Phoenix they had around after some rough winters. Most of their palms are Sabal mexicanas and Washingtonias.  There is still a Butia or two near them entrance too, I believe.

They had a fair amount of CIDP around, though I wasn't surprised by that at all. They seem to have survived all over the place 

I did take pics of their surviving dactyliferas though:

 

[Ben G.]

I took one pic of a CIDP, just for the heck of it. I also liked these tall trachycarpus they had as well:

 

[mulungu]

On 8/14/2024 at 3:15 PM, MarcusH said:

That could be.  I know there's a smaller version at the Riverwalk.  By the way here's the address to the big Brahea Armata.  

There are several armatas still on the River Walk. There was a nice thread with additional pictures of the Southside Brahea armata and Riverwalk B. armatas a while back:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/76105-old-brahea-armata-in-southside-san-antonio-texas/

I had to go downtown for jury screening a couple of days ago and snapped a few more pics of some on the River Walk:

Museum Reach armatas:

 

A closeup:

 

Another nearby:

 

On the Downtown Reach in partial shade:

 

 

A small one at La Villita on the River Walk:

 

 

Also, I vaguely recalled an internet rumor many, many years ago about there having been a mule palm at the Old San Francisco Steakhouse by San Antonio airport at some point but was never able to find documentation. Once I got a chance to swing by, and didn't see a mule palm from the outside, but they did have this B. armata:

 

From the inside, clipped from a photo (not mine) on their website:

 

 

[Dwarf Fan]

On 8/23/2024 at 12:07 PM, WisTex said:

To sell more palms every few years.  They are still being planted on North Padre Island by the "a palm is a palm" crowd.  Likely they will grow to a size that will be a danger when they freeze off, be removed, leaving landscaping consisting of rocks and weeds.

^^^ HaHa ain’t that the truth. 🤣

[Meangreen94z]

Butia, Copernicia alba, and Livistona nitida in Pearland.

[Robert Cade Ross]

Cidp & Sylvester finally back to their full glory here in south east Tx  

[Ben G.]

Those are some nice ones Cade. I like Phoenix palms quite a bit. I know they are super spiny and susceptible to disease. So, I don't blame people who don't want to plant them. 

I like any palms that can look good in extreme heat and drought though. I have a small CIDP that I will probably plant in the ground next spring. I am thinking about trying a Sylvester's as well. I don't live on five acres anymore though, so I am trying to choose what I can fit in my yard pretty carefully.

[Ben G.]

I was at SeaWorld/Aquatica again recently, and I was correct. They do have a couple of Butias in front of the park:

[Ben G.]

I also thought it was a bit interesting that I saw about a couple of dozen Phoenix palms in the park that had survived the recent cold winters. No stumps to be seen. It appears one of the Butias in front of the park did die though. I know locals say they are hit or miss in this area. Perhaps they are. 

 

[MarcusH]

19 hours ago, Ben G. said:

I also thought it was a bit interesting that I saw about a couple of dozen Phoenix palms in the park that had survived the recent cold winters. No stumps to be seen. It appears one of the Butias in front of the park did die though. I know locals say they are hit or miss in this area. Perhaps they are. 

 

This is the first dead Butia I have seen in San Antonio.  I come around San Antonio a lot due to my job and I see a good amount of Butias.  I wouldn't say they are a hit or miss . Like with every palm tree there's this one that just doesn't make it for whatever unexplainable reason . I saw a handful dead Filiferas in San Antonio but thousands of alive ones. I see more Butias where there's loomy soil so maybe the soil on the NW side of SA could be one of several factors in the palms death ( just an assumption) .  I was surprised about how many more CIDPs and other Date palms are still alive and performing well. 

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

This is the first dead Butia I have seen in San Antonio.  I come around San Antonio a lot due to my job and I see a good amount of Butias.  I wouldn't say they are a hit or miss . Like with every palm tree there's this one that just doesn't make it for whatever unexplainable reason . I saw a handful dead Filiferas in San Antonio but thousands of alive ones. I see more Butias where there's loomy soil so maybe the soil on the NW side of SA could be one of several factors in the palms death ( just an assumption) .  I was surprised about how many more CIDPs and other Date palms are still alive and performing well. 

I meant LOAMY soil

[Ben G.]

4 hours ago, MarcusH said:

This is the first dead Butia I have seen in San Antonio.  I come around San Antonio a lot due to my job and I see a good amount of Butias.  I wouldn't say they are a hit or miss . Like with every palm tree there's this one that just doesn't make it for whatever unexplainable reason . I saw a handful dead Filiferas in San Antonio but thousands of alive ones. I see more Butias where there's loomy soil so maybe the soil on the NW side of SA could be one of several factors in the palms death ( just an assumption) .  I was surprised about how many more CIDPs and other Date palms are still alive and performing well. 

You may be totally correct. I lost young loblolly pines and azaleas in Oklahoma during bad winters, and nobody would have considered them as marginal plants for the area. Some individuals are just weaker than normal for any number of reasons.

The two times I visited Palm Buddha, both the owner and his son told me that Butias are hit and miss in the San Antonio area. I see Butias around that look fine, though I still feel I see more CIDPs than Butias. I don't do a lot of exploring the area with my work or family life though, so I am sure you have more opportunities to spot them than me.

I really like Butias though, so I am happy to have one in my backyard. 🙂

[MarcusH]

15 hours ago, Ben G. said:

You may be totally correct. I lost young loblolly pines and azaleas in Oklahoma during bad winters, and nobody would have considered them as marginal plants for the area. Some individuals are just weaker than normal for any number of reasons.

The two times I visited Palm Buddha, both the owner and his son told me that Butias are hit and miss in the San Antonio area. I see Butias around that look fine, though I still feel I see more CIDPs than Butias. I don't do a lot of exploring the area with my work or family life though, so I am sure you have more opportunities to spot them than me.

I really like Butias though, so I am happy to have one in my backyard. 🙂

I'm having a hard time believing that Butias are a hit or miss in San Antonio.  If you look at some older posts from this year I see people talking about Butias cold hardiness and some guy reported that his Butias went through 5F and recovered.  It doesn't get this cold here anymore.  Our winters tend to be more 8b than 9a/9b ( rare) .  I went to Pensacola last year where you get to see numerous Butias and there climate is slightly warmer than ours .  The only thing I would see them struggling to survive is the soil. Loamy soil shouldn't be a problem at all. I live on the NE side of SA where you’ll find the best soil for planting palms in this region .  Cold hardiness is not a problem for Butia here in SA.  

I went to Palm Buddha quite a few times I ended up buying nothing.  I was getting close to buy a Mule palm but I stepped back from my plans and bought a Butia instead.  I went to a lot of nurseries and all they care about is making quick money . They don't have the kind of knowledge about palms like a lot of people do here. You want a true opinion ? Ask people here not someone from a nursery.  Moon Valley is the worst. 

[Ben G.]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

I'm having a hard time believing that Butias are a hit or miss in San Antonio.  If you look at some older posts from this year I see people talking about Butias cold hardiness and some guy reported that his Butias went through 5F and recovered.  It doesn't get this cold here anymore.  Our winters tend to be more 8b than 9a/9b ( rare) .  I went to Pensacola last year where you get to see numerous Butias and there climate is slightly warmer than ours .  The only thing I would see them struggling to survive is the soil. Loamy soil shouldn't be a problem at all. I live on the NE side of SA where you’ll find the best soil for planting palms in this region .  Cold hardiness is not a problem for Butia here in SA.  

I went to Palm Buddha quite a few times I ended up buying nothing.  I was getting close to buy a Mule palm but I stepped back from my plans and bought a Butia instead.  I went to a lot of nurseries and all they care about is making quick money . They don't have the kind of knowledge about palms like a lot of people do here. You want a true opinion ? Ask people here not someone from a nursery.  Moon Valley is the worst. 

I think perhaps you misunderstand my position. I stated what others have told me, but I don't have a strong opinion about whether they were right or wrong. I am happy to believe you that Butias grow well here. You drive around the city more than I do. I see them occasionally, and they always look good when I find them. (Except this one in front of SeaWorld)

I certainly don't think it is too cold for Butias in this area, as I have seen large butias as far north as Texarkana before. I was only speculating that perhaps there places in the San Antonio area that have soil that causes Butia to be weaker than they would otherwise be in a soil that was better for them. That speculation could also be incorrect.

Most importantly, I am just trying to discuss this with you, or anyone else who wants to chime in. I am definitely not trying to state these things as hard facts, and I don't have a strong enough opinion about this topic to argue with anyone.

When you present evidence that contradicts what others have told me, I take it as an equally useful experience. Honestly, I hope you are right in this case. I really like Butias, and I think it is a shame they aren't used just as much as Sabals or Washingtonias in this area. 

[SeanK]

On 8/30/2024 at 7:00 PM, Ben G. said:

I also thought it was a bit interesting that I saw about a couple of dozen Phoenix palms in the park that had survived the recent cold winters. No stumps to be seen. It appears one of the Butias in front of the park did die though. I know locals say they are hit or miss in this area. Perhaps they are. 

 

After a couple Texas freezes, makes you wonder if CIDP is more cold hardy than Butia.

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, Ben G. said:

I think perhaps you misunderstand my position. I stated what others have told me, but I don't have a strong opinion about whether they were right or wrong. I am happy to believe you that Butias grow well here. You drive around the city more than I do. I see them occasionally, and they always look good when I find them. (Except this one in front of SeaWorld)

I certainly don't think it is too cold for Butias in this area, as I have seen large butias as far north as Texarkana before. I was only speculating that perhaps there places in the San Antonio area that have soil that causes Butia to be weaker than they would otherwise be in a soil that was better for them. That speculation could also be incorrect.

Most importantly, I am just trying to discuss this with you, or anyone else who wants to chime in. I am definitely not trying to state these things as hard facts, and I don't have a strong enough opinion about this topic to argue with anyone.

When you present evidence that contradicts what others have told me, I take it as an equally useful experience. Honestly, I hope you are right in this case. I really like Butias, and I think it is a shame they aren't used just as much as Sabals or Washingtonias in this area. 

Sorry man I wasn't criticizing any of what you said if I gave you the impression then  I'm sorry.  

There aren't many Butias around San Antonio,  definitely way more CIDPs.  

What part of SA do you live in what type of soil do you have? 

[PA-TX2024]

On 8/23/2024 at 7:40 PM, Ben G. said:

I visited Aquatica in San Antonio recently, and I was curious to see what surviving Phoenix they had around after some rough winters. Most of their palms are Sabal mexicanas and Washingtonias.  There is still a Butia or two near them entrance too, I believe.

They had a fair amount of CIDP around, though I wasn't surprised by that at all. They seem to have survived all over the place 

I did take pics of their surviving dactyliferas though:

 

How much I would want Dactyliferas to be plentiful in SA again... 

[Ben G.]

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

Sorry man I wasn't criticizing any of what you said if I gave you the impression then  I'm sorry.  

There aren't many Butias around San Antonio,  definitely way more CIDPs.  

What part of SA do you live in what type of soil do you have? 

No problem. I am in the same boat. I hope I haven't come across as argumentative. That's definitely not my intention.

I live in the Cibolo/Schertz border area here in the NE as well. My yard has a pretty dark clay-based soil that doesn't seem overly hard-packed or soggy.  Compared to what I came from in Oklahoma, it is a nice change. I see a lot of really rocky lighter colored soil in the area, but I haven't hit any of that when digging in my yard yet. Maybe they just brought in a good layer of topsoil when the house was built.

[Ben G.]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

After a couple Texas freezes, makes you wonder if CIDP is more cold hardy than Butia.

CIDP are certainly very trunk hardy. Someone who has lived here longer could maybe give us a better clue if they think they are more cold hardy than Butia though. From what I can see, it looks like Butia are quite a bit more leaf hardy. They just seem to be less common.

On the other hand I am super impressed that I haven't seen any dead CIDP trunks around after how cold it has been. Maybe there are some CIDP trunks around, but I only seem to see the robusta casualties.

Even robusta leaning hybrids are a mixed bag. I have seen some hybrids around Ft. Sam Houston that look like they are still struggling to recover from winter damage. On the other hand there is a neighborhood near me with three tall robusta-looking washingtonias at the entrance that looked great by the time I moved in at the beginning of May. There seems to be a lot of variance between individuals.

[ChrisA]

Good morning! I live in the Alamo Heights area and there are several Butias that seem to be doing just fine.  I know of a few that up and died following the big freeze. But like you guys said there could be other factors that limit the success in the area. The ones I know of that died were growing under shade trees, so maybe they were weakened from too little sunlight? Aside from that maybe a general lack of care: no supplemental irrigation or fertilization? I thought I’d read once that they might also be susceptible to nematodes as are Windmills.  Not sure if I’m remembering correctly though.

[Chester B]

I’m surprised PalmBuddha says they’re hit and miss. Considering how far up the east coast they go into much colder growing zones I would’ve said totally hardy. So like you have all suggested maybe some other factor at play?

What I can say from experience is that how palms react to very cold weather seems almost unpredictable.  X palm survives say 10F and then 5 years later 20F kills it and the conditions of the cold appeared to be the same. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

two baby king palms they were lucky to survive the recent freeze event with no heat just a pile of leaves lol . Update on my double trunk Bismarck doing great ! larger of my 4 queens really took off this summer:) 

[Austinpalm]

On 9/2/2024 at 8:12 AM, ChrisA said:

Good morning! I live in the Alamo Heights area and there are several Butias that seem to be doing just fine.  I know of a few that up and died following the big freeze. But like you guys said there could be other factors that limit the success in the area. The ones I know of that died were growing under shade trees, so maybe they were weakened from too little sunlight? Aside from that maybe a general lack of care: no supplemental irrigation or fertilization? I thought I’d read once that they might also be susceptible to nematodes as are Windmills.  Not sure if I’m remembering correctly though.

In addition to all of the potential issues raised above, I found beetles to be a problem for Butia in Austin. And their presence can be hard to detect without a very close view of the palm. Infestation along with any of the above issues could be too much for a palm to deal with.

[Xenon]

Bizzie is growing faster than I thought it would after only 5 months, but the Jatropha grows even faster lol 

[Chester B]

10 hours ago, Xenon said:

Bizzie is growing faster than I thought it would after only 5 months, but the Jatropha grows even faster lol 

How hardy are those Jatropha, I keep seeing them around?

My Bizzie has grown faster then yours I believe, it has almost completely replaced its entire canopy.  It's looking so good right now, here's hoping for that warm. dry winter they keep predicting for our area.

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

How hardy are those Jatropha, I keep seeing them around?

My Bizzie has grown faster then yours I believe, it has almost completely replaced its entire canopy.  It's looking so good right now, here's hoping for that warm. dry winter they keep predicting for our area.

Mostly root hardy in full sun if you get enough mass on them. Otherwise nonstop bloom until first frost and not much stem damage until mid-high 20s

 

Perfectly average winter is fine with me 

[Robert Cade Ross]

Spotted a good size pigmy date palm today next to Alvin  we shall see if she survives lol .

[Chester B]

Here’s my Bizzie. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Here’s my Bizzie. 

What a beauty 🤩

I’m  going to get another one soon , then I’ll have 4 haha 

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, Robert Cade Ross said:

What a beauty 🤩

I’m  going to get another one soon , then I’ll have 4 haha 

Well you're that much warmer then me so fingers crossed.  I did see that big one in Bacliff, that for sure is not protected.

[Xenon]

12 minutes ago, Chester B said:

Well you're that much warmer then me so fingers crossed.  I did see that big one in Bacliff, that for sure is not protected.

I would bet your area is warmer than where he is most of the time. Pearland and Friendswood are still very warm but then you hit that cold hole in Alvin for some reason (always been that way). Near Angelton and down to Lake Jackson it's suddenly warm again. 

I'm so tired of living in the shadow of 2021. Bizzies are hardy here for the most part. Even my cold western suburb had several Bizzies dating back to the mid 2000s until that wretched freeze. Anyhow, it's time to move on and look forward 😜 

Fwiw, I know of several dozen nuclear surviving Bizzies from League City/Clear Lake down to Galveston. I'm sure there are many more hiding around. 

[Robert Cade Ross]

2 hours ago, Xenon said:

I would bet your area is warmer than where he is most of the time. Pearland and Friendswood are still very warm but then you hit that cold hole in Alvin for some reason (always been that way). Near Angelton and down to Lake Jackson it's suddenly warm again. 

I'm so tired of living in the shadow of 2021. Bizzies are hardy here for the most part. Even my cold western suburb had several Bizzies dating back to the mid 2000s until that wretched freeze. Anyhow, it's time to move on and look forward 😜 

Fwiw, I know of several dozen nuclear surviving Bizzies from League City/Clear Lake down to Galveston. I'm sure there are many more hiding around. 

blue house icon is my location lol . 
the sad tundra of Alvin / Manvel 

[Xenon]

9 minutes ago, Robert Cade Ross said:

blue house icon is my location lol . 
the sad tundra of Alvin / Manvel 

Why is that area so cold?? I feel like Sienna is warmer than there tbh. Meanwhile Pearland near 288 and Friendswood are pretty similar to Hobby 

[Robert Cade Ross]

For example lol the further south you go it’s colder 😹😕

[jwitt]

12 minutes ago, Robert Cade Ross said:

For example lol the further south you go it’s colder 😹😕

NW wind?

[Xenon]

12 minutes ago, jwitt said:

NW wind?

I believe it's the lack of development in that area, it's semi-rural from Arcola to Alvin and not really connected to the near continuous built up area of "Houston". Much of Houston routinely runs warmer than rural areas 150-200 miles to the southwest at a similar distance from the coast. Galveston Bay also radiates a ton of a heat on a calm/light wind night, influencing far beyond its shores into southeast and central Houston in tandem with UHI. 

Screenie from an old thread showing the UHI + Galveston Bay effect 

[Robert Cade Ross]

I think robsuta is a prolific producer lmao …

[JeskiM]

Somebody needs to mow the "grass" in that last picture there !

-Matt

[Robert Cade Ross]

Are there any large 2021 queen survivors in the downtown Houston area? Or neighborhoods in the area right now .