Butia underappreciated for cold hardiness?

[fr8train]

I've been noticing that after this recent freeze CIDP are all cooked, as are most Washingtonias, barring the most filifera dominate hybrids. Yet at the same time the few Butia I know that grow around here still have green leaves. Some have drooped since the freeze, but they generally look a lot better many other palms. 

Here are a few recent photos from around here that I've taken to illustrate what I mean. These all made it though the big freeze of 2021 with no protection too, in what's probably the coldest part of the San Antonio area. 

[ChicagoPalma]

They really are underappreciated, so that's why I'm getting one because it is very cold hardy for a feather palm, especially mature in severe freezes, and they still give a tropical look.

[Chester B]

Depending on your location they are the most cold hardy pinnate palm, especially in the SE.  In the NW Jubaea seems to have a slight edge.  Nothing wrong with a nice Butia.

[kristof p]

Here in my cold 8b/9a Jubaea is the most cold hardy feather palm followed by Butia odorata....

[fr8train]

1 hour ago, Chester B said:

Depending on your location they are the most cold hardy pinnate palm, especially in the SE.  In the NW Jubaea seems to have a slight edge.  Nothing wrong with a nice Butia.

 

15 minutes ago, kristof p said:

Here in my cold 8b/9a Jubaea is the most cold hardy feather palm followed by Butia odorata....

I'm unaware of any Jubaea growing here, other than the one they cut down at the Riverwalk, which I suspect given enough time might have recovered. 

I'd love to see them tried.

Edited February 27, 2024 by fr8train

[WSimpson]

Yes , that is what I have here in a great microclimate and mine took 6F last winter with a lot of burn but it had all last summer and it'll have all this summer to grow out of those issues .

How long has your Yucca rostrata been growing ? I've never seen one that big and showy . 

Thanks ,

Will

[Las Palmas Norte]

12 hours ago, kristof p said:

Here in my cold 8b/9a Jubaea is the most cold hardy feather palm followed by Butia odorata....

Both of those pinnate palms struggle here. I have some limited experience with Jubaea and had a 5 gallon specimen die outright at 25°F / -4°C. Butia really needed an overhead canopy and center growth protection in the Winter months. I got one to about 8' tall before it gave up the ghost.

[DAVEinMB]

They've grown on me over the years and they are definitely tough as nails. Mature trees that aren't overly pruned are stunning. Here's a large specimen at a local garden center

[fr8train]

4 hours ago, Will Simpson said:

Yes , that is what I have here in a great microclimate and mine took 6F last winter with a lot of burn but it had all last summer and it'll have all this summer to grow out of those issues .

How long has your Yucca rostrata been growing ? I've never seen one that big and showy . 

Thanks ,

Will

Hi Will. Those aren't my palms, I've just been biking around the area, so I don't know how old those Yuccas are. There are a number of them around here though. 

5 minutes ago, DAVEinMB said:

They've grown on me over the years and they are definitely tough as nails. Mature trees that aren't overly pruned are stunning. Here's a large specimen at a local garden center

Agreed! I generally hate over pruned palms of any sort, that palm looks amazing. When there's a mild winter I think these look especially good, the ones I saw in Florida were very attractive. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

1 hour ago, DAVEinMB said:

They've grown on me over the years and they are definitely tough as nails. Mature trees that aren't overly pruned are stunning. Here's a large specimen at a local garden center

That Butia looks substantially superior to what appears to be a scrawny, diminished potted Trachycarpus next to it . 😬

Edited February 27, 2024 by Las Palmas Norte

[kristof p]

3 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Both of those pinnate palms struggle here. I have some limited experience with Jubaea and had a 5 gallon specimen die outright at 25°F / -4°C. Butia really needed an overhead canopy and center growth protection in the Winter months. I got one to about 8' tall before it gave up the ghost.

I planted 2 Jubaea around 2008, during the first 4 years they had a roof over them for protection from the rain and snow in winter, during this first years they saw a few times -10°C/-12°. Never saw any damage on them. Since 2012 I never protect them anymore. Both have grown a lot (for Jubaea)... Same story for my Butia odorata. 

[RFun]

20 hours ago, fr8train said:

I've been noticing that after this recent freeze CIDP are all cooked, as are most Washingtonias, barring the most filifera dominate hybrids. Yet at the same time the few Butia I know that grow around here still have green leaves. Some have drooped since the freeze, but they generally look a lot better many other palms. 

Here are a few recent photos from around here that I've taken to illustrate what I mean. These all made it though the big freeze of 2021 with no protection too, in what's probably the coldest part of the San Antonio area. 

Yes, Butias are underrated on hardiness.  They can take around 5F for a short period (and even colder than that is possible).  Length of cold would be the key.

Edited February 27, 2024 by RFun

[Chester B]

To be honest I wouldn't say they are underrated, everyone knows how tough they are.  Like with anything common they get overlooked for the sexier palms.

[ZPalms]

13 hours ago, DAVEinMB said:

They've grown on me over the years and they are definitely tough as nails. Mature trees that aren't overly pruned are stunning. Here's a large specimen at a local garden center

This is such a perfect butia, looks amazing!

[Banana Belt]

Here is a link to taxonomic classification of various palms.  On the chart of page 27 you can see that the Jubaea and Butia are vary closely related probably reason they hybridize so well.  Cocos and Syagrus are more distant relation.   Regardless, I do believe Jubaea are slightly better adapted to cold dry air than Butia, particularly with wind.  However both are very similar.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312513113_Taxonomy_and_Intraspecific_Classification

[strongbad635]

I think they are very appreciated by hard core gardening enthusiasts like all of us.  They are less appreciated by property owners and landscape companies who want big palms at the lowest price.  Because the growth rate of Butias is so glacially slow, a large one is wayyyyyyy more expensive than a large Washie, Syagrus, or even Sabal.  Some folks are also turned off by how prominent and hard to remove the frond boots are, so most Butias aren't stripped of them.

[Scott W]

1 hour ago, strongbad635 said:

 Because the growth rate of Butias is so glacially slow

Mule palm will take care of the growth rate issue of it's momma Butia.

[Marco67]

23 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Both of those pinnate palms struggle here. I have some limited experience with Jubaea and had a 5 gallon specimen die outright at 25°F / -4°C. Butia really needed an overhead canopy and center growth protection in the Winter months. I got one to about 8' tall before it gave up the ghost.

Same here. I don't know of any unprotected long-term survivors. It almost seems that they don't like these cool, Oceanic climates. The combination of the wet climate with long periods of cool weather creates rot very easily. The same goes for Jubaea's by the way. They seem to take the cold weather and dampness on the US south-east coast a lot better, as long as they get plenty of heat. 

[Meangreen94z]

On 2/26/2024 at 11:31 PM, kristof p said:

Here in my cold 8b/9a Jubaea is the most cold hardy feather palm followed by Butia odorata....

In dry cold conditions palms like Jubaea and Phoenix theophrastii benefit in hardiness, but for wet cold CIDP is the king. They came back at a high percentage from 0°-6°F (-18°C to -14.5°C) and a week below freezing in Central and North Texas. Butia probably had a 50% recovery rate. The only Jubaea I’m aware of that survived received protection/ help. There were a few on Lake Austin and in the Dallas area that all died. I’m going to try them anyway.If a once in 30 year event occurs again I’ll simply protect.

[RFun]

2 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

In dry cold conditions palms like Jubaea and Phoenix theophrastii benefit in hardiness, but for wet cold CIDP is the king. They came back at a high percentage from 0°-6°F (-18°C to -14.5°C) and a week below freezing in Central and North Texas. Butia probably had a 50% recovery rate. The only Jubaea I’m aware of that survived received protection/ help. There were a few on Lake Austin and in the Dallas area that all died. I’m going to try them anyway.If a once in 30 year event occurs again I’ll simply protect.

I see where you are coming from.  There are some growers that will literally just throw a tarp over a palm for protection.  The methods range from simple to elaborate. 

And also, I always keep in mind that with those arctic blasts, also comes dry weather.  So I've found the wet Winter vs. dry Winter argument to not hold much weight.  That's more of a factor if you spend lots of time around freezing and also have wet weather (or if you just spend lots of time below freezing).  That isn't the case for many U.S. locations.  I've seen what can be done in many areas of the U.S.  It's quite impressive really.

Edited February 28, 2024 by RFun

[kristof p]

3 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Same here. I don't know of any unprotected long-term survivors. It almost seems that they don't like these cool, Oceanic climates. The combination of the wet climate with long periods of cool weather creates rot very easily. The same goes for Jubaea's by the way. They seem to take the cold weather and dampness on the US south-east coast a lot better, as long as they get plenty of heat. 

They have now problem growing here and we have somewhat the same climate I think. Never seen any rot on my Jubaeas or big Butia and they are not slow growers.

[SeanK]

Timing on this topic is apropos. "how cold hardy is <Genus species>?" is likely the most commonly asked question under this section. Yet, there is never a clear answer. RRW 16 months to Christmas Eve, 2022 we had a strong cold event that followed a mild, rainy afternoon. From 50s to about 5°F as the front pushed through on that night.

Here are a pair of Butias barely 10-feet apart, out in the open on the south side of a yard, at the top of a hill. So this begs the question, "How cold-hardy is Butia odorata"

 

[RFun]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

Timing on this topic is apropos. "how cold hardy is <Genus species>?" is likely the most commonly asked question under this section. Yet, there is never a clear answer. RRW 16 months to Christmas Eve, 2022 we had a strong cold event that followed a mild, rainy afternoon. From 50s to about 5°F as the front pushed through on that night.

Here are a pair of Butias barely 10-feet apart, out in the open on the south side of a yard, at the top of a hill. So this begs the question, "How cold-hardy is Butia odorata"

 

Tough to conclude anything from this example.  The drying cold air and wind would have dried up things quite well in your example.  Like I said, the arctic fronts do bring the dry cold in.  Anyway, even if there was one cold and wet night around freezing or just below, that would not have a significant impact on these Butias.

I'll guess that since this is a hilltop scenario, this would be one of the cold spots in that area.  Regardless of that, all I can guess is one Butia is from weaker genetics.  But I certainly can't conclude much.  We don't exactly have official weather stations posted by each Butia here either.  And as I've said before, each Butia is unique.  My guess is that the one on the right would have survived if closer to the house in this example.  Good microclimates can make a difference.

Edited February 29, 2024 by RFun

[SeanK]

12 hours ago, RFun said:

Tough to conclude anything from this example.  The drying cold air and wind would have dried up things quite well in your example.  Like I said, the arctic fronts do bring the dry cold in.  Anyway, even if there was one cold and wet night around freezing or just below, that would not have a significant impact on these Butias.

I'll guess that since this is a hilltop scenario, this would be one of the cold spots in that area.  Regardless of that, all I can guess is one Butia is from weaker genetics.  But I certainly can't conclude much.  We don't exactly have official weather stations posted by each Butia here either.  And as I've said before, each Butia is unique.  My guess is that the one on the right would have survived if closer to the house in this example.  Good microclimates can make a difference.

The conclusion of course, is that we cannot make absolute statements about cold-hardiness regarding two members of the same species planted 10-ft apart 

I'm convinced you're a troll.

[Scott W]

14 hours ago, SeanK said:

Here are a pair of Butias barely 10-feet apart, out in the open on the south side of a yard, at the top of a hill. So this begs the question, "How cold-hardy is Butia odorata"

One  conclude individual genetics, underlying health issues, or other issues are why your trees had this experience.   Regardless....5F for a Butia that size is still brutal.

[Las Palmas Norte]

22 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Same here. I don't know of any unprotected long-term survivors. It almost seems that they don't like these cool, Oceanic climates. The combination of the wet climate with long periods of cool weather creates rot very easily. The same goes for Jubaea's by the way. They seem to take the cold weather and dampness on the US south-east coast a lot better, as long as they get plenty of heat. 

Another example of zone ratings meaning very little.

[kristof p]

11 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Another example of zone ratings meaning very little.

Butia and Jubaea have no problems growing in my cold oceanic climate and long humid cool winters...🤷‍♂️ I have a very simular climate like that of south east UK. Probably more sunshine and warmer summers then Marco from the Netherlands.

I think a lot will have to do with the kind of soil they grow in. If you have a soggy soil it will take a few degrees of it's cold hardiness I think. My palms are planted on little mountains of lava rock for good drainage and a lot of minerals. the soil in the garden is also very sandy up here. No sticky clay....

[ChicagoPalma]

Does also anyone know if the fruit of a mule palm is sweet or edible like a butia if they even develop fruit? And do most butias have sweet fruit? Does syagrus also have edible fruit since I've seen some mexican workers back last year in a resort in mexico eat the fruit dried.

[MarcusH]

The only palm that's most reliable and evergreen looking are Sabal Palms followed by Washingtonia Filifera/Filibusta (filifera leaning), Chamaerops humilis and Butia Odorata in the San Antonio area. If you don't want to worry about protection there are no other palms that will be as reliable and GOOD looking as the ones I just have mentioned.  CIDPs "usually" bounce back but it takes to the end of the year for a decent looking crown .  The freeze we had was a bit warmer than last year but the freezing rain took a toll on vulnerable palms.

All of my Queens died ! My Robusta is struggling to survive I was able to pull out the smallest frond.  The other fronds are still growing .  See what happens. 

My Filiferas are doing fine.  Didn’t defoliated,  the latest fronds are a bit light green and a bit floppy but they will outgrow the cold damage.  

With the winters we get in San Antonio I'm done with growing palms that can't handle warm 7b/8a winters .  As of today I'm growing 4 Filiferas and I've been doing some research on the weekend I've found a place in Houston that offers Sabal Palmettos 8 foot of clear trunk for 375 dollars each . Local nursery wants 2500 dollars incl. Installation. In the summer I'm going to buy and pick up 2 palms and install it on my own with help from my family.  Rent a bobcat and that's it. I'm so tired of palms that struggle here .   

 

[Marco67]

21 hours ago, kristof p said:

They have now problem growing here and we have somewhat the same climate I think. Never seen any rot on my Jubaeas or big Butia and they are not slow growers.

Unfortunately, I don't have the same experience with Butia's as you. I lost an Odorata and Eriospatha some years ago. They looked fine in early spring, but rapidly declined when it became warmer. 

I think you live in Flanders, and I have been there many times, but except for the occasional Trachycarpus I never saw a Butia or Jubaea to be honest. I have to admit that they are not easy to find in garden centers. 

 

I think you really need at least a 9a climate to have a chance in our climate with them. It is too bad that they are advertised as being at least hardy to -10 C (14 F). They can stand that kind of temperatures only for a short time. Not in conditions where the temperature hardly gets above freezing for a week, which sometimes happens here. 

 

People pay a lot of money and get very disappointed after they are badly damaged or outright killed after a fierce winter. Still, nothing comes close to a Trachycarpus which can take that kind of conditions without a problem. 

Edited February 29, 2024 by Marco67

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Does also anyone know if the fruit of a mule palm is sweet or edible like a butia if they even develop fruit? And do most butias have sweet fruit? Does syagrus also have edible fruit since I've seen some mexican workers back last year in a resort in mexico eat the fruit dried.

Can't speak to mules, but jubueaxbutia fruit are Devine! With a capital d.

Got the butia fruit and inside is a mini coconut. 

And hardier than a mule.

Leaves even got that coco twist!

[Meangreen94z]

2 hours ago, MarcusH said:

The only palm that's most reliable and evergreen looking are Sabal Palms followed by Washingtonia Filifera/Filibusta (filifera leaning), Chamaerops humilis and Butia Odorata in the San Antonio area. If you don't want to worry about protection there are no other palms that will be as reliable and GOOD looking as the ones I just have mentioned.  CIDPs "usually" bounce back but it takes to the end of the year for a decent looking crown .  The freeze we had was a bit warmer than last year but the freezing rain took a toll on vulnerable palms.

All of my Queens died ! My Robusta is struggling to survive I was able to pull out the smallest frond.  The other fronds are still growing .  See what happens. 

My Filiferas are doing fine.  Didn’t defoliated,  the latest fronds are a bit light green and a bit floppy but they will outgrow the cold damage.  

With the winters we get in San Antonio I'm done with growing palms that can't handle warm 7b/8a winters .  As of today I'm growing 4 Filiferas and I've been doing some research on the weekend I've found a place in Houston that offers Sabal Palmettos 8 foot of clear trunk for 375 dollars each . Local nursery wants 2500 dollars incl. Installation. In the summer I'm going to buy and pick up 2 palms and install it on my own with help from my family.  Rent a bobcat and that's it. I'm so tired of palms that struggle here .   

 

Those are just common box store palms. There’s far more than that that is hardy in Central and North Texas.

[Fusca]

3 hours ago, ChicagoPalma said:

Does also anyone know if the fruit of a mule palm is sweet or edible like a butia if they even develop fruit? And do most butias have sweet fruit? Does syagrus also have edible fruit since I've seen some mexican workers back last year in a resort in mexico eat the fruit dried.

Yes, mule palm fruit is sweet as is Butia fruit, Jubaea fruit and Syagrus romanzoffiana.  I can't speak for all species of Butia but I have personally tasted the fruits from the common species odorata, canariensis and eriospatha.  Yatay fruits look very similar so I assume they taste similar as well.  Not all fruits taste the same even within the same species - some are sweeter than others.

Hybrid palms produce fruits just like the mother palm in the cross.  So BxJ produce fruits like Butia and JxB produce fruits like Jubaea.  Coco Queen fruits will be like regular Queen fruits.

Edited February 29, 2024 by Fusca

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, Meangreen94z said:

Those are just common box store palms. There’s far more than that that is hardy in Central and North Texas.

I'm sure there is just name me 5 palms that definitely survive mid to upper single digits here in Texas with pictures please.  Like I said I do believe you I just want to see it. 

[Meangreen94z]

Sure, here’s a quick 12

Brahea armata, San Antonio river walk  pictured, John Fairey Garden, Austin, Dallas, San Marcos etc  Survived at as high or higher. of a rate as Butia or Washingtonia 

Brahea dulcis. John Fairey Garden etc

Brahea berlandieri/bella -John Fairey Garden

Trachycarpus fortunei- Zilker Botanical Garden(pictured) and all over Central and North Texas

Nannorrhops ritchiana. John Fairey Garden(pictured), all over Central and North Texas

Serenoa repens- John Fairey Garden, Zilker Botanical Garden, San Antonio botanical GardenGuahaia argyrata -Zilker Botanical Garden

Brahea moorei- John fairey, and North and Central Texas

rhapidophyllum hystrix- all over. John Fairey, Zilker, etc.Arenga engleri- Zilker Botanical GardenTrachycapus takil- Zilker Brahea decumbens. Did not burn in 2021 in Central Texas

[MarcusH]

3 minutes ago, Meangreen94z said:

Sure, here’s a quick 12

Brahea armata, San Antonio river walk  pictured, John Fairey Garden, Austin, Dallas, San Marcos etc 

Brahea dulcis. John Fairey Garden etc

Brahea berlandieri/bella -John Fairey Garden

Trachycarpus fortunei- Zilker Botanical Garden(pictured) and all over Central and North Texas

Nannorrhops ritchiana. John Fairey Garden(pictured), all over Central and North Texas

Serenoa repens- John Fairey Garden, Zilker Botanical Garden, San Antonio botanical GardenGuahaia argyrata -Zilker Botanical Garden

Brahea moorei- John fairey, and North and Central Texas

rhapidophyllum hystrix- all over. John Fairey, Zilker, etc.Arenga engleri- Zilker Botanical GardenTrachycapus takil- Zilker Brahea decumbens. Did not burn in 2021 in Central Texas

I've seen the other fan palms at the Riverwalk. I know there are other growing in San Antonio but not easy accessible for the normal palm grower .  Little strap leafes or growing these slow grower from seeds no thank you.  But there you go . 

[DTS]

Cant wait to see what happens when I plant mine!

[ChicagoPalma]

Also has there every been any attempts to grow Syagrus x butia, with the queen palm as the mother?

[RFun]

10 hours ago, SeanK said:

The conclusion of course, is that we cannot make absolute statements about cold-hardiness regarding two members of the same species planted 10-ft apart 

I'm convinced you're a troll.

Why would I be trolling on a palm board?  I wouldn't see much point.  Just sharing information from what I've observed on here.  Nothing deep.

Edited March 1, 2024 by RFun

[Meangreen94z]

1 hour ago, MarcusH said:

I've seen the other fan palms at the Riverwalk. I know there are other growing in San Antonio but not easy accessible for the normal palm grower .  Little strap leafes or growing these slow grower from seeds no thank you.  But there you go . 

That’s why it’s best to do it in combination. Have your anchor palms like Washingtonia and Sabals,  grow other species from seed for another day, and occasionally purchase a rare palm at a great price or on a special occasion.