Butia underappreciated for cold hardiness?

[Chester B]

To add

Chamaedorea radicalis

I knew these were hardy here, but there are established specimens at John Fairey Garden which is colder than Houston.

I also see large trunking Livistona chinensis around here that you can tell have been around a long time and have the battle scars to prove it.

3 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I've seen the other fan palms at the Riverwalk. I know there are other growing in San Antonio but not easy accessible for the normal palm grower .  Little strap leafes or growing these slow grower from seeds no thank you.  But there you go . 

Many of these are available in 3 gallon sizes through the mail.  Also I've gotten palms over the years from other enthusiasts at decent sizes (even bigger), and regularly visit nurseries - you never know what shows up.  You just have to keep looking and be willing to pull the trigger when something becomes available to you, and sometimes you have to pay more than you want to.  However in 2-3 years time you'll realize what a good deal it actually was.

Also - ASK?  If you ask at nurseries about X plant you'd be surprised at the response.  Sometimes they have it "in the back",  at another location, growing out in a greenhouse, or a similar species, or they can get it for you because they have connections.

Some of these other palms can be reasonably fast growers too.  The bigger they are they faster they grow.  The first couple of years is slow but they always pick up the pace.  I've had one foot palms get to 9 or 10 feet of trunk in 5-6 years.

Edited March 1, 2024 by Chester B

[kristof p]

10 hours ago, Marco67 said:

Unfortunately, I don't have the same experience with Butia's as you. I lost an Odorata and Eriospatha some years ago. They looked fine in early spring, but rapidly declined when it became warmer. 

I think you live in Flanders, and I have been there many times, but except for the occasional Trachycarpus I never saw a Butia or Jubaea to be honest. I have to admit that they are not easy to find in garden centers. 

 

I think you really need at least a 9a climate to have a chance in our climate with them. It is too bad that they are advertised as being at least hardy to -10 C (14 F). They can stand that kind of temperatures only for a short time. Not in conditions where the temperature hardly gets above freezing for a week, which sometimes happens here. 

 

People pay a lot of money and get very disappointed after they are badly damaged or outright killed after a fierce winter. Still, nothing comes close to a Trachycarpus which can take that kind of conditions without a problem. 

yes, my garden is in west-flanders, similar climate like zeeland in the netherlands...There are a few Butia and Jubaea around here but not many but they are doeing great. Here are a few pictures of my Jubaeas and my Butia. The last time they saw some protection was 2011/2012. I can also grow Livistona chinensis with only some fleece for protection during cold spells. B. edulis is also a good palm for here, suffering only minor leaf damage during winters...

[Marco67]

7 hours ago, kristof p said:

yes, my garden is in west-flanders, similar climate like zeeland in the netherlands...There are a few Butia and Jubaea around here but not many but they are doeing great. Here are a few pictures of my Jubaeas and my Butia. The last time they saw some protection was 2011/2012. I can also grow Livistona chinensis with only some fleece for protection during cold spells. B. edulis is also a good palm for here, suffering only minor leaf damage during winters...

Thanks for sharing the photos Kristof. Wow, they look amazing, nice job. I wish you would see them more in garden centers and more people would be able to buy them. 

Edited March 1, 2024 by Marco67

[Meangreen94z]

10 hours ago, Chester B said:

To add

Chamaedorea radicalis

I knew these were hardy here, but there are established specimens at John Fairey Garden which is colder than Houston.

I also see large trunking Livistona chinensis around here that you can tell have been around a long time and have the battle scars to prove it.

Many of these are available in 3 gallon sizes through the mail.  Also I've gotten palms over the years from other enthusiasts at decent sizes (even bigger), and regularly visit nurseries - you never know what shows up.  You just have to keep looking and be willing to pull the trigger when something becomes available to you, and sometimes you have to pay more than you want to.  However in 2-3 years time you'll realize what a good deal it actually was.

Also - ASK?  If you ask at nurseries about X plant you'd be surprised at the response.  Sometimes they have it "in the back",  at another location, growing out in a greenhouse, or a similar species, or they can get it for you because they have connections.

Some of these other palms can be reasonably fast growers too.  The bigger they are they faster they grow.  The first couple of years is slow but they always pick up the pace.  I've had one foot palms get to 9 or 10 feet of trunk in 5-6 years.

Another great one, although slow growing, is Trithrinax campestris. They survived single digits unprotected in 2021

[Harry’s Palms]

On 2/28/2024 at 8:21 AM, strongbad635 said:

I think they are very appreciated by hard core gardening enthusiasts like all of us.  They are less appreciated by property owners and landscape companies who want big palms at the lowest price.  Because the growth rate of Butias is so glacially slow, a large one is wayyyyyyy more expensive than a large Washie, Syagrus, or even Sabal.  Some folks are also turned off by how prominent and hard to remove the frond boots are, so most Butias aren't stripped of them.

Those are all very good points . They are easy to grow in my area and I see them but not as prevalent as the others you mention. It took about 25 years for mine to grow from a 4” seedling container to a decent sized palm. But , like a slow moving train , just kept plugging along . It didn’t care about our droughts or El Ninio rains . It has always looked very healthy. Harry

 

Edited March 1, 2024 by Harry’s Palms

[fr8train]

On 2/27/2024 at 9:18 PM, Chester B said:

To be honest I wouldn't say they are underrated, everyone knows how tough they are.  Like with anything common they get overlooked for the sexier palms.

I guess I mean by the masses. I've seen them at big box stores in Florida, but never here in Texas. I rarely see them planted here either, as opposed to Washingtonias which are less leaf hardy from what I've seen around town. The Butias planted here in Fair Oaks Ranch all look like the survived that big freeze in 2021 too, and this area always gets colder than San Antonio proper. 

23 hours ago, MarcusH said:

I've seen the other fan palms at the Riverwalk. I know there are other growing in San Antonio but not easy accessible for the normal palm grower .  Little strap leafes or growing these slow grower from seeds no thank you.  But there you go . 

I think Brahea armata is another great contender for the area, and they're hardier than either of the Washingtonias from what I've seen. There are 3 beautiful examples at Oblate School of Theology if you ever want to check them out, they're in the back. Zero burn from what I've seen over the last 2 cold winters. There's also a nice mature one on the south side that looks great, not far from the military base. 

It's true they're sadly even more difficult to source, but they can be found for a reasonable price around Arizona and Las Vegas. I picked up two the last time I was out there, at a decent size and price. $75 each for 15 gallon palms. 

Edited March 1, 2024 by fr8train

[fr8train]

9 hours ago, Meangreen94z said:

Another great one, although slow growing, is Trithrinax campestris. They survived single digits unprotected in 2021

This is one of my favorite palms! I'm not aware of anyone growing them here, but I was lucky enough to get 20 or so seeds to sprout. Maybe by the time I'm 70 they'll start trunking. 

I have 2 others that are a bit bigger I picked up from Jungle Music, one as a strap leaf 15+ years ago, and one last year. 

[fr8train]

19 hours ago, Chester B said:

To add

Chamaedorea radicalis

I knew these were hardy here, but there are established specimens at John Fairey Garden which is colder than Houston.

I also see large trunking Livistona chinensis around here that you can tell have been around a long time and have the battle scars to prove it.

Many of these are available in 3 gallon sizes through the mail.  Also I've gotten palms over the years from other enthusiasts at decent sizes (even bigger), and regularly visit nurseries - you never know what shows up.  You just have to keep looking and be willing to pull the trigger when something becomes available to you, and sometimes you have to pay more than you want to.  However in 2-3 years time you'll realize what a good deal it actually was.

Also - ASK?  If you ask at nurseries about X plant you'd be surprised at the response.  Sometimes they have it "in the back",  at another location, growing out in a greenhouse, or a similar species, or they can get it for you because they have connections.

Some of these other palms can be reasonably fast growers too.  The bigger they are they faster they grow.  The first couple of years is slow but they always pick up the pace.  I've had one foot palms get to 9 or 10 feet of trunk in 5-6 years.

I made another thread recently, and it's truly impressive how much some palms can grow here, even supposedly slow growing varieties: 

 

Edited March 1, 2024 by fr8train

[Harry’s Palms]

1 hour ago, fr8train said:

I guess I mean by the masses. I've seen them at big box stores in Florida, but never here in Texas. I rarely see them planted here either, as opposed to Washingtonias which are less leaf hardy from what I've seen around town. The Butias planted here in Fair Oaks Ranch all look like the survived that big freeze in 2021 too, and this area always gets colder than San Antonio proper. 

I think Brahea armata is another great contender for the area, and they're hardier than either of the Washingtonias from what I've seen. There are 3 beautiful examples at Oblate School of Theology if you ever want to check them out, they're in the back. Zero burn from what I've seen over the last 2 cold winters. There's also a nice mature one on the south side that looks great, not far from the military base. 

It's true they're sadly even more difficult to source, but they can be found for a reasonable price around Arizona and Las Vegas. I picked up two the last time I was out there, at a decent size and price. $75 each for 15 gallon palms. 

I agree . The B. Armata ,that is to the right of my Butia in the pic I posted , started out as a 10” pot well over 20 years ago , so it is about the same age as the Butia. Both seem very easy to grow …..but slow. Harry

[MarcusH]

2 hours ago, fr8train said:

I guess I mean by the masses. I've seen them at big box stores in Florida, but never here in Texas. I rarely see them planted here either, as opposed to Washingtonias which are less leaf hardy from what I've seen around town. The Butias planted here in Fair Oaks Ranch all look like the survived that big freeze in 2021 too, and this area always gets colder than San Antonio proper. 

I think Brahea armata is another great contender for the area, and they're hardier than either of the Washingtonias from what I've seen. There are 3 beautiful examples at Oblate School of Theology if you ever want to check them out, they're in the back. Zero burn from what I've seen over the last 2 cold winters. There's also a nice mature one on the south side that looks great, not far from the military base. 

It's true they're sadly even more difficult to source, but they can be found for a reasonable price around Arizona and Las Vegas. I picked up two the last time I was out there, at a decent size and price. $75 each for 15 gallon palms. 

I went to the Riverwalk today.  Is this a Brahea Armata ?

[MarcusH]

It's such a shame that our big box stores don't offer those other cold hardy palms . I also think there isn’t much of interest in buying more exotic palms here in San Antonio  

[Meangreen94z]

43 minutes ago, MarcusH said:

It's such a shame that our big box stores don't offer those other cold hardy palms . I also think there isn’t much of interest in buying more exotic palms here in San Antonio  

Yes, that’s a Brahea armata. Back when NTCHP was around you could get those at a great price. Jungle Music occasionally has 15 gallon size for $175, but shipping puts it closer to $300. If you buy them at any local nursery in SA or Austin you will probably pay alot more than that(if they ever have them)

[L.A.M.]

On 2/29/2024 at 12:23 PM, MarcusH said:

The only palm that's most reliable and evergreen looking are Sabal Palms followed by Washingtonia Filifera/Filibusta (filifera leaning), Chamaerops humilis and Butia Odorata in the San Antonio area. If you don't want to worry about protection there are no other palms that will be as reliable and GOOD looking as the ones I just have mentioned.  CIDPs "usually" bounce back but it takes to the end of the year for a decent looking crown .  The freeze we had was a bit warmer than last year but the freezing rain took a toll on vulnerable palms.

All of my Queens died ! My Robusta is struggling to survive I was able to pull out the smallest frond.  The other fronds are still growing .  See what happens. 

My Filiferas are doing fine.  Didn’t defoliated,  the latest fronds are a bit light green and a bit floppy but they will outgrow the cold damage.  

With the winters we get in San Antonio I'm done with growing palms that can't handle warm 7b/8a winters .  As of today I'm growing 4 Filiferas and I've been doing some research on the weekend I've found a place in Houston that offers Sabal Palmettos 8 foot of clear trunk for 375 dollars each . Local nursery wants 2500 dollars incl. Installation. In the summer I'm going to buy and pick up 2 palms and install it on my own with help from my family.  Rent a bobcat and that's it. I'm so tired of palms that struggle here .   

 

Have you tried Sabal brazoriensis? They're actually native to parts of the Texas Triangle, and they even do better here in Middle Tennessee than Birmingham or Louisiana palmettos based on what I've read recently. I feel like they'd be my best hope of growing trunking palms long-term without protection here in Tennessee, so they should surely do well there - especially with them being actually native to College Station!

[Scott W]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:07 PM, ChicagoPalma said:

Also has there every been any attempts to grow Syagrus x butia, with the queen palm as the mother?

Yes, several have done it.   There's another hybridizer here in Jacksonville, hangs out mostly on the FB groups, that did this cross this year and has several thousand seed in germination.  Most often it's not a cross done because mature Syagrus romanzoffiana are too tall to safely perform the work necessary to make the cross.

As to mule fruit, my one mature mule does not produce fruit.   I honestly don't think most do, hence the name mule.  

[Meangreen94z]

4 hours ago, L.A.M. said:

Have you tried Sabal brazoriensis? They're actually native to parts of the Texas Triangle, and they even do better here in Middle Tennessee than Birmingham or Louisiana palmettos based on what I've read recently. I feel like they'd be my best hope of growing trunking palms long-term without protection here in Tennessee, so they should surely do well there - especially with them being actually native to College Station!

Most Sabal’s are hardy in his area, including the Caribbean species like causiarum. Sabal brazoriensis is native further south than College Station. They are south of Houston near Lake Jackson and closer to the coast, in Brazoria County(where the name comes from)

[Leelanau Palms]

1 hour ago, Scott W said:

Yes, several have done it.   There's another hybridizer here in Jacksonville, hangs out mostly on the FB groups, that did this cross this year and has several thousand seed in germination.  Most often it's not a cross done because mature Syagrus romanzoffiana are too tall to safely perform the work necessary to make the cross.

As to mule fruit, my one mature mule does not produce fruit.   I honestly don't think most do, hence the name mule.  

How would this cross compare to the opposite in terms of plant characteristics?

[Chester B]

22 minutes ago, Meangreen94z said:

Most Sabal’s are hardy in his area, including the Caribbean species like causiarum. Sabal brazoriensis is native further south than College Station. They are south of Houston near Lake Jackson and closer to the coast, in Brazoria County(where the name comes from)

It's on my list to get down there to collect seed.  I have locations of a few palms right along the road in ditches, so hopefully won't bother anyone if I collect seed.  Probably need to do this sooner rather than later or I'll be waiting until next year.

[Swolte]

Jubaeas and Butia in Belgium?! Geweldig @kristof p!

[Scott W]

27 minutes ago, Leelanau Palms said:

How would this cross compare to the opposite in terms of plant characteristics?

Honestly don't know, have not seen a mature one, but it should take on more traits of the Syagrus being its the mother in the cross.

[MarcusH]

Thank you guys for the feedback about cold hardy palms in San Antonio, I definitely learned something from it. I was surprised to see most newly planted Queens survived the last big freeze at the Riverwalk .  I didn't expect that.  

[Harry’s Palms]

14 hours ago, MarcusH said:

It's such a shame that our big box stores don't offer those other cold hardy palms . I also think there isn’t much of interest in buying more exotic palms here in San Antonio  

I bought my Brahea Armata at HD for $15 in a 10” container , over 20 years ago. Lately , around here , I don’t see the variety I used to see at these stores . Still pretty good , but not like before. Harry

[MarcusH]

50 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

I bought my Brahea Armata at HD for $15 in a 10” container , over 20 years ago. Lately , around here , I don’t see the variety I used to see at these stores . Still pretty good , but not like before. Harry

It's a beautiful palm Harry !  I wish our yard would be bigger because it seems to be there isn’t enough room to plant palms all over I also have to respect my wife's plant choices. It's not just mine. I already have 5 palms planted .  If it would be just me I would definitely like to plant a Brahea Armata. 

[Harry’s Palms]

Thank you for the kind words. My wife and I have had to blend our tastes as well. She has been very generous with giving me room for my obsession. , which she enjoys too. When my daughter was very young and I was planting palms with reckless abandon, she would walk around with me and her pink beach pail and “help”. One day she looked up and asked “daddy , why are we trying to hide our house?” Harry

[MarcusH]

2 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Thank you for the kind words. My wife and I have had to blend our tastes as well. She has been very generous with giving me room for my obsession. , which she enjoys too. When my daughter was very young and I was planting palms with reckless abandon, she would walk around with me and her pink beach pail and “help”. One day she looked up and asked “daddy , why are we trying to hide our house?” Harry

That put a smile on my face Harry ,when your daughter said "why are we trying to hide our house ? " It does remind me of what I'm going through with my wife .I moved into my wife's house from Germany a little over two years ago.  Little did I know about palms but I got addicted very fast.  I've put all my trust in our Big Box Stores, I thought the palms they sell are good for our area. Oh boy was I wrong ! My first palm ( we only agreed on planting one palm) I planted was a Robusta then I moved on and bought 2 Syagrus Romanzoffiana (all dead and replaced by Filiferas) .We're in zone 9a but honestly it's 8b for the most part since 2021.  My Robusta keeps defoliating on me . I ended up planting 4 Filiferas and so far I've been very satisfied with the results . They don't care much for the cold we get here. My palms are all young from as little as 18 inches to more than 3 feet tall . My mind is going back and forth on palms. Right now I'm at a stage where I don't want to experiment with palms.  I want something that can handle our coldest winter we had in the last 50 years , a palm that doesn't defoliated when we get into the upper teens.  Right now I'm looking into buying one or two Sabal Palmettos for the frond yard that will replace our Robusta and the recently planted 18 " Filifera.  I've found someone on FB that sells them for so much cheaper than our local nursery.  I would have to plant those 8 footer by myself with help from family.  That's a big job but it will save me thousands of dollars at the end. We talked about other palms . Yes I would love to have a few more other varieties but I'm start to hit ground which means I'm running out of space.  3 Filiferas are planted in the back and they get huge.  We have trees , shrubs and flower beds that already take up most space in our yard.  Growing palms is an addiction and hopefully in a few years I can pick up my chair and sit underneath the canopy and enjoy the moment. 

[L.A.M.]

On 3/2/2024 at 8:19 AM, Meangreen94z said:

Most Sabal’s are hardy in his area, including the Caribbean species like causiarum. Sabal brazoriensis is native further south than College Station. They are south of Houston near Lake Jackson and closer to the coast, in Brazoria County(where the name comes from)

I just checked and oh wow! Brazoria County is much further south than I remember it being. Still, the point stands that they're one of only three palm species native to Texas itself, and unlike other tree-sized palms, they're even reliably cold-hardy down to Zone 7a in a warm enough general climate - not just 7b like Birmingham and Louisiana palmettos or even 8a like cabbage palmettos, Chilean wine palms (which can't handle very hot and humid summers) and Chinese windmill palms.

Edited March 4, 2024 by L.A.M.