Are phoenix palms a bad investment in Florida?

[FlaPalmLover]

I find the phoenix palms to be particularly aesthetically pleasing out of the hardier palms (and I know many of you do as well), particularly date palms and silver date palms. Are they a flat-out bad investment in Florida? Is there any way to mitigate the risk of lethal bronzing? 
 

As an aside, if these are a bad investment, are there any nurseries that sell sabal palms that aren’t wholesale nurseries? 

[Bill H2DB]

    Drive around in Volusia County . You'll see  hundreds  of plantings of  various Phoenix species .  For the last decade or so , the large species have become prominent in roadside planting , both by developers and the FDOT and the cities etc .

   In the older parts of the various towns here , you tend to see great examples of species that are less popular these days . I prefer them esthetically , as I like the lush Tropical colors , rather than the dry , desert like look of the  P.Dactyifera  or the Madjool variety that is so popular now .

 Are looking to go large , or buy a smaller plant ?  They are for sale in a lot of places .   So far , have seen no out of the ordinary problem . 

[sonoranfans]

I guess it depends on cold tolerance.  Phoenix palms can get a number of pathogens here and some are really arid species that dont like our rains or humidity.  The two that seemed to adapt best  here are the sylvestris and rupicola who see wet seasons in habitat.  Make sure the soil drains well for these.  I lived in the arizona desert, the dactylifera there are loving life, they look stressed here as do the CIDP's.  In my yard I have only a rupicola triple at 13 years in the ground from 3 gallon size,  its s slow grower but the most tropical looking phoenix IMO.

 

[RainforestCafe]

I'm not sure about the phoenix palm question. But to answer your other question (about sabal palms), you can get them all over Florida. I'm in the Bradenton area, and I just had 12 of the fully grown sabal palms installed at my house a couple weeks ago. If you want younger sabal palms in pots, then just find a native nursery in your area. In my area, we have "sweet bay nursery" that carries them. I'm sure there's a native nursery in your area that carries them as well.

If you want the bigger, fully grown sabal palms, I just called landscaping companies in my area and told them I wanted big sabal palms delivered and planted, and there were several companies that could do it. Definitely call around though, because the prices vary wildly. For me, it was anywhere from $350 - $800/ per palm installed. If you want to just do it yourself, that's an option too.

As far as non-wholesale, several of the retail nurseries in my area will sell you a big sabal palm. Of course you have to figure out how move and plant that ~1,000 lb monster.

For me, the $350 for a large, mature native sabal palm devlivered and planted is totally worth it. They're awesome.

Edited March 7 by RainforestCafe

[Merlyn]

In general, Phoenix Sylvestris and Dactylifera are a really bad investment in Florida.  If Lethal Bronzing makes it across the lake from the Orlando area, you'll see most of them die.  As a reference, all of them along 417 just South of I4 are dead or dying.  A year ago these were mostly okay.  But I go through there relatively often and I can tell which ones are newly infected.  A new development near my house brought in 5 Sylvestris at their entryway.  All died.  They replaced them with 5 more 10-15' trunk Sylvestris.  All but one died.  The last is clearly infected and only months from dying.  In the neighborhood behind me someone planted a new 10' trunk Sylvestris...it died.  Someone here described Sylvestris as a 6 month lease, these days that's probably accurate.  I have three Sylvestris in my yard, one Canary, one Reclinata, one Theophrasti-ish hybrid, and 4 Roebellini. 

As far as mitigating it, the supposed vector is a leafhopper that lives in the grass during the day and in the trees at night (or vice versa, I can't remember).  If there's no grass near your palm, it's less likely to fly up into the palm, bite it, and infect it.  Proper tool sanitation is also important, because there's apparently no scientific research showing it *cannot* be transmitted by pruning tools.

For Sabals, they are supposed to be susceptible to Lethal Bronzing too.  But I've seen Sylvestris die in the middle of a group of Sabals, and nothing ever happened to the Sabals.  So I don't see it as a big concern.

 

[redbeard917]

I would echo Merlyn's observations. Another example would be the masses of trunking Phoenix sylvestris planted along I-75 in Ocala. Probably at least 80% are dead just a few years later. I like them, but would not plant one where it was any kind of focal point in the landscape, and would not recommend spending more money on one than you can afford to easily replace.

Just to be clear, I'm speaking here about sylvestris. I don't know if other species are affected as badly. I can't think of any roebellinis dying that I've seen. The hybrids are often really cool and I would personally take the chance and use them in the landscape.

[ruskinPalms]

There are plenty of feral Phoenix hybrids naturalized all over the place so Phoenix can live here. Roebelenii seems to be pretty resistant to LB though I have seen a few go down from it. Hybrids with roebelenii and canariensis and reclinata are most likely what make up the vast majority of feral date palms around here. 

[FlaPalmLover]

5 hours ago, redbeard917 said:

I would echo Merlyn's observations. Another example would be the masses of trunking Phoenix sylvestris planted along I-75 in Ocala. Probably at least 80% are dead just a few years later. I like them, but would not plant one where it was any kind of focal point in the landscape, and would not recommend spending more money on one than you can afford to easily replace.

Just to be clear, I'm speaking here about sylvestris. I don't know if other species are affected as badly. I can't think of any roebellinis dying that I've seen. The hybrids are often really cool and I would personally take the chance and use them in the landscape.

Yeah, I've seen those by Ocala. It's sad that so many died that the roadway aesthetic was harmed by it. They need to put some livistona species or Washies there where those were.

I am really leaning towards just getting a majesty and a Bismarckia for my house. But I wouldn't mind a nice sabal or two as well since they don't take up much space. I may try zone pushing a royal somewhere on my property.

Edited March 8 by FlaPalmLover

[ruskinPalms]

Sorry. To answer the original question, getting large trunking Phoenix palms installed is probably a bad investment. LB is going to spread. 

[FlaPalmLover]

Just now, ruskinPalms said:

Sorry. To answer the original question, getting large trunking Phoenix palms installed is probably a bad investment. LB is going to spread. 

Yeah, that's what I unfortunately figured. Just wanted to ensure that was the consensus. A shame since phoenix sylvestris is such a nice palm. 

[ruskinPalms]

2 hours ago, FlaPalmLover said:

Yeah, I've seen those by Ocala. It's sad that so many died that the roadway aesthetic was harmed by it. They need to put some livistona species or Washies there where those were.

I am really leaning towards just getting a majesty and a Bismarckia for my house. But I wouldn't mind a nice sabal or two as well since they don't take up much space. I may try zone pushing a royal somewhere on my property.

Majesty palms are fantastic as long as you keep them watered and fertilized. They have survived in New Orleans so cold shouldn’t be a worry, and they self clean! 

[PalmatierMeg]

Sorry to hear all this about Phoenix sylvestris. It was my favorite Phoenix and grew well here, looked elegant so was my choice if I were to get a Phoenix - no thanks. Back in the 1990s my husband bought a roebelenii triple at a local BB after he had told me he would never accept a spiny palm in our gardens. The 3 pygmies are now 8-10' tall (2 female, 1 male I think) seed producers. Never had a problem with them except the spines but we trim them whenever leaves fall below horizontal.

Phoenix canariensis is a terrible choice on the East Coast. They are desert palms and hate excess rain and humidity. In Cape Coral they get infected with fungi, sometimes fatally from too much water & humidity, yellow from lack of fertilizer and generally look like trash. They are also susceptible to many diseases coming from the SW. Keep the CIDPs out in the desert SW where they thrive. Stay away from P. dactylifera. They are desert palms too but if by some miracle you manage to grow one (well 2, they are dioecious) to maturity, it will produce vastly inferior dates. You will never grow acceptable dates on the East Coast. Leave them out West, too.

I know there are many other Phoenix spp but I don't know much about them and have no reason to find out as I don't plan to ever plant them.

[WaianaeCrider]

My problem w/Phoenix palms is that they come equipped with a few hundred thousand hypodermic needles that are out to poke you when you trim off dead fronds.  LOL

Years ago I planted about 15 dwarf phoenix and it's hell keeping them trimmed.  I hate dump days.  LOL  Thinking about getting ride of them one by one.  They are all about 20 years old.

[Palmfarmer]

5 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

My problem w/Phoenix palms is that they come equipped with a few hundred thousand hypodermic needles that are out to poke you when you trim off dead fronds.  LOL

Years ago I planted about 15 dwarf phoenix and it's hell keeping them trimmed.  I hate dump days.  LOL  Thinking about getting ride of them one by one.  They are all about 20 years old.

Dwarfs? Do you mean Robilinis? 

[Bill H2DB]

11 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

My problem w/Phoenix palms is that they come equipped with a few hundred thousand hypodermic needles that are out to poke you when you trim off dead fronds.  LOL

Years ago I planted about 15 dwarf phoenix and it's hell keeping them trimmed.  I hate dump days.  LOL  Thinking about getting ride of them one by one.  They are all about 20 years old.

    I like the Dwarf / Pygmy date palm aka Roebelinii .   I do not care for the  Triple in a pot version . Ma Nature made them single trunked .  If one wanted to have a clump , by planting 3 together , then at least give each individual some space .  Crowding them so tightly together seems to cause problems later in life .   

  Personally , I grow them as individuals , and after they attain some size , I trim them by using Lobbers and leather gloves . I always use clear cheap goggles when trimming in general anyway .   The lobbers let you reach in and cut the frond as needed . 

[PalmatierMeg]

1 hour ago, Bill H2DB said:

    I like the Dwarf / Pygmy date palm aka Roebelinii .   I do not care for the  Triple in a pot version . Ma Nature made them single trunked .  If one wanted to have a clump , by planting 3 together , then at least give each individual some space .  Crowding them so tightly together seems to cause problems later in life .   

  Personally , I grow them as individuals , and after they attain some size , I trim them by using Lobbers and leather gloves . I always use clear cheap goggles when trimming in general anyway .   The lobbers let you reach in and cut the frond as needed . 

I'm with you. I would buy them as solitaires or at least separate them. Actually, I wouldn't buy them at all - my husband did. That was back in the mid-90s when we were just two more Yankee transplants complicating the lives of native Floridians. We were too busy making a living and raising our younger son to focus on palm gardens.

[RFun]

On 3/6/2024 at 3:57 PM, sonoranfans said:

I guess it depends on cold tolerance.  Phoenix palms can get a number of pathogens here and some are really arid species that dont like our rains or humidity.  The two that seemed to adapt best  here are the sylvestris and rupicola who see wet seasons in habitat.  Make sure the soil drains well for these.  I lived in the arizona desert, the dactylifera there are loving life, they look stressed here as do the CIDP's.  In my yard I have only a rupicola triple at 13 years in the ground from 3 gallon size,  its s slow grower but the most tropical looking phoenix IMO.

 

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing occurring for many of those Canary Island Dates they've planted in Central Florida.  A lot of them look stressed.  There are certain spots where they don't look as stressed.  It's usually in the lower lying areas off the roads from what I have seen (where water can collect easier).  They do better on the California coastal areas as far as I'm concerned.

Edited March 9 by RFun

[kinzyjr]

On 3/5/2024 at 12:19 PM, FlaPalmLover said:

I find the phoenix palms to be particularly aesthetically pleasing out of the hardier palms (and I know many of you do as well), particularly date palms and silver date palms. Are they a flat-out bad investment in Florida? Is there any way to mitigate the risk of lethal bronzing? 
 

As an aside, if these are a bad investment, are there any nurseries that sell sabal palms that aren’t wholesale nurseries? 

While Phoenix dactylifera, Phoenix sylvestris, and Phoenix canariensis have died in record numbers here, most of the Phoenix rupicola and Phoenix reclinata bybrids are holding up pretty well.

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, RFun said:

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing occurring for many of those Canary Island Dates they've planted in Central Florida.  A lot of them look stressed.  There are certain spots where they don't look as stressed.  It's usually in the lower lying areas off the roads from what I have seen (where water can collect easier).  They do better on the California coastal areas as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah I worked in SoCal and SF bay area for 7 years, some real beasts with super thick crowns and trunks.  Also in arizona, CIDP do well but especially the dactylifera.  Once I see them that way it makes me feel like my best efforts wont make the palm happy, and then I wont grow it.  If its a desert palm, I wont grow it.  If you have never seen the happy version, you wouldn't know.  I take a few risks with canopy but Im not pushing more than half a zone and mostly half of a half a zone.  I have killed enough palms testing the limits, Im now trying to keep the ones I plant happy and healthy.

[Hurricanepalms]

Phoenix Rupicola is my favorite and, in my opinion, the most tropical looking.

[ruskinPalms]

I planted this one in 1997 at my parents house in south Venice Florida as a very small palm. My dad has done all he can over the years to kill it. Their yard is pure sand and they are close to the coast so miss a lot of the summer thunderstorms due to sea breeze fronts keeping the rain away from them. Absolutely no irrigation or fertilizer lol. Anyway, really slow because of the deplorable care it has had over the years, but still quite alive. Here is a pic I took there today.

[FlaPalmLover]

The CIDPs here just don't look the same or do as well, though, even if they survive, compared to the ones in the western parts of the country. it's a shame they're being destroyed by palm weevils. You see some that randomly do pretty well in certain pockets of Florida. 

A nice one by the old Polk County courthouse: 

[kinzyjr]

9 hours ago, FlaPalmLover said:

A nice one by the old Polk County courthouse: 

The photo must have been taken some time ago.  The large one on the right has been gone for a while.  Looking on street view, it is on the February 2008 view, but gone by May 2011.  The one on the left is still there, but with the skinny trunk, seems to be a hybrid.

[WaianaeCrider]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:06 PM, Palmfarmer said:

Dwarfs? Do you mean Robilinis? 

Yup