Sabal x Brazoriensis seeds

[Stefanus]

Hi all, I finaly managed to get hold of some Sabal Brazoriensis seeds but I wasn't expecting them to be this large. I've only germinated S. Minor and "Lousisiana" before and I've never had them this size.  Can anyone confirm that Brazoriensis has such big seeds? Picture below shows the seeds next to Sabal minor seed. 

Thanks in advance! 

Stefan

Edited March 5, 2024 by Stefanus

[Jimhardy]

Acorns....just kidding.

[Leelanau Palms]

@Sabal King , what do you think?

[Sabal King]

23 hours ago, Leelanau Palms said:

@Sabal King , what do you think?

way too big...  Put it up against a metric ruler.

[Fusca]

I'm not that familiar with Sabal brazoriensis seeds but I think they are slightly smaller than Sabal domingensis, Sabal 'Riverside' and Sabal mexicana seeds which are quite large.  The Sabal miamiensis seeds are roughly the size of Sabal minor.  Your seeds don't appear to be quite as large as mexicana but closer to the size of guatemalensis.  I think I got some brazoriensis seeds from @Matt N- Dallas but I don't recall exactly what their size was.

[Joe NC]

I bought what was called Sabal x-texensis, a name which was used for Brazoria for a bit.  Also... it was used for S. mexicana.

I thought I was getting a Brazoria, but I got a mexicana.  (I was suspicious when it started to grow and trunk really quickly, when it finally set seed, it was confirmed) It sounds like the confusion between the two caused the name x brazoriensis to be used for the Brazoria. 

I made a post way back when I was trying to ID my "x-texensis" and the photo below is from that.

The large seeds have since identified the palm I have as a S. mexicana

I do also have a flowering actual Brazoria now, and mine has seeds that are small like a minor.

Edited March 6, 2024 by Joe NC

[Sabal King]

7 minutes ago, Joe NC said:

I bought what was called Sabal x-texensis, a name which was used for Brazoria for a bit.  Also... it was used for S. mexicana.

I thought I was getting a Brazoria, but I got a mexicana.  (I was suspicious when it started to grow and trunk really quickly, when it finally set seed, it was confirmed) It sounds like the confusion between the two caused the name x brazoriensis to be used for the Brazoria. 

I made a post way back when I was trying to ID my "x-texensis" and the photo below is from that.

The large seeds have since identified the palm I have as a S. mexicana

I do also have a flowering actual Brazoria now, and mine has seeds that are small like a minor.

The brazoriensis beans I have, are all around the size of minors, not even close to mexicana.  Those seeds are monsterous in size, and the only ones that are close are Tamaulipis which are huge.

[Stefanus]

Thanks for the feedback, the seeds are 10mm (0,4") in diameter.  I put them agains the ruler, see image below. From your replies I suspect that these possibly aren't what they are sold for, unfortunately, I thought that I bought them from a reliable source.

[Leelanau Palms]

Are you game to germinate them anyways and see what happens? We fans would be cheering. 

BTW, my family is originally from Groningen.

[Stefanus]

54 minutes ago, Leelanau Palms said:

Are you game to germinate them anyways and see what happens? We fans would be cheering. 

BTW, my family is originally from Groningen.

Yes, of course! I've paid a decent amount of money for them so I'll try to germinate them. I keep you posted about the progress! Groningen is only about 1 hour driving from here. 😉

[MattInRaleigh]

5 hours ago, Stefanus said:

Thanks for the feedback, the seeds are 10mm (0,4") in diameter.  I put them agains the ruler, see image below. From your replies I suspect that these possibly aren't what they are sold for, unfortunately, I thought that I bought them from a reliable source.

Sabal Etonia seeds I bought from Florida Seeds are about that size. They were much larger than Sabal Minor and Sabal Palmetto.

[Marco67]

Perhaps they mixed up the names Sabal texana and Sabal x texensis.

Sabal texana is the old name for Sabal Mexicana. It might also explain the size of the seeds. Sabal Mexicana is lot less hardy than Brazoriensis I think. 

[Bigfish]

On 3/5/2024 at 2:51 PM, Stefanus said:

Hi all, I finaly managed to get hold of some Sabal Brazoriensis seeds but I wasn't expecting them to be this large. I've only germinated S. Minor and "Lousisiana" before and I've never had them this size.  Can anyone confirm that Brazoriensis has such big seeds? Picture below shows the seeds next to Sabal minor seed. 

Thanks in advance! 

Stefan

Those look like S. mexicana seeds.

[Dwarf Fan]

Sabal Mexicana (collected myself):

 

Sabal ‘Tamaulipas’ (from Bigfish):

Side by side for reference (‘Tamaulipas’ is slightly darker in color and just a bit smaller in size.)

 

[Dwarf Fan]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:03 PM, Sabal King said:

The brazoriensis beans I have, are all around the size of minors, not even close to mexicana.  Those seeds are monsterous in size, and the only ones that are close are Tamaulipas which are huge.

Yes the S. ‘Tamaulipas’  seeds are massive in size like S. Mexicana. It makes me wonder if the mysterious ‘Tamaulipas’ is an ancient S. minor x S. Mexicana hybrid…

[Stefanus]

I've written the seller and shared my doubts about the seeds. Today I got confirmation from him that the seeds are in fact from Sabal Brazoriensis and that its normal that these are bigger than Sabal minor seeds. Well.. I'll keep track on the germination of the seeds and we'll see eventually which Sabal it is  

[Stefanus]

@Dwarf Fan Thanks for the photos! My seeds do really look like your Mexicana seeds. 

[Dwarf Fan]

On 3/6/2024 at 4:03 PM, Sabal King said:

The brazoriensis beans I have, are all around the size of minors, not even close to mexicana.  Those seeds are monsterous in size, and the only ones that are close are Tamaulipis which are huge.

^^^ True.

36 minutes ago, Stefanus said:

I've written the seller and shared my doubts about the seeds. Today I got confirmation from him that the seeds are in fact from Sabal Brazoriensis and that its normal that these are bigger than Sabal minor seeds. Well.. I'll keep track on the germination of the seeds and we'll see eventually which Sabal it is  

Sabal King is correct the seller either doesn’t know what he has or is misrepresenting his seeds, I was curious enough that I just spoke with the most knowledgeable nursery person at Barton Springs Nursery in Texas (they collect seeds from and grow them from their own Mother Brazoriensis directly) and I had it confirmed that in fact quote:

“Brazoriensis seeds are smaller like minor seeds NOT larger like Mexicana seeds”.

32 minutes ago, Stefanus said:

@Dwarf Fan Thanks for the photos! My seeds do really look like your Mexicana seeds. 

Sorry to be the bearer of the bad news Stefanus, S. Mexicana is not as cold hardy as Brazoriensis it is hardy to around (-13.3C/8F).

 I hope this Palm will still work for your climate zone.

[Stefanus]

Yea, I think its out of question that these are SxBrazoriensis seeds.  But thank for your replies, I really appreciate it! Not sure if this one would survive our usaly wet winters, but I'd like to get suprised by it. 

[Dwarf Fan]

12 minutes ago, Stefanus said:

Yea, I think its out of question that these are SxBrazoriensis seeds.  But thank for your replies, I really appreciate it! Not sure if this one would survive our usaly wet winters, but I'd like to get suprised by it. 

Welcome, S. Mexicana can be a very ornamental Palm if it decides that your climate is suitable.

[WattsZ]

On 3/6/2024 at 3:54 PM, Joe NC said:

I bought what was called Sabal x-texensis, a name which was used for Brazoria for a bit.  Also... it was used for S. mexicana.

I thought I was getting a Brazoria, but I got a mexicana.  (I was suspicious when it started to grow and trunk really quickly, when it finally set seed, it was confirmed) It sounds like the confusion between the two caused the name x brazoriensis to be used for the Brazoria. 

I made a post way back when I was trying to ID my "x-texensis" and the photo below is from that.

The large seeds have since identified the palm I have as a S. mexicana

I do also have a flowering actual Brazoria now, and mine has seeds that are small like a minor.

so which do you think grows or trunks a little faster S. Mexicana or Sabal Brazoriensis

[Joe NC]

21 hours ago, WattsZ said:

so which do you think grows or trunks a little faster S. Mexicana or Sabal Brazoriensis

The Mexicana is a rocket compared to the Brazoriensis.  The growth rate was a dead giveaway that what I had was not a Brazoria even before it set seed and confirmed. 

Screen grabs from Google Street View show how fast that Sabal put on trunk.  Bottom photo is summer 2012, top is Dec 2023.

[Marco67]

7 hours ago, Joe NC said:

The Mexicana is a rocket compared to the Brazoriensis.  The growth rate was a dead giveaway that what I had was not a Brazoria even before it set seed and confirmed. 

Screen grabs from Google Street View show how fast that Sabal put on trunk.  Bottom photo is summer 2012, top is Dec 2023.

I am afraid that by the time it reaches that size in our country, you will have to become 100 years old. From seed, mine formed its first divided leaves after about 20 years. You have a million times more summer heat than we do. Your Sabal Mexicano looks great by the way. 

[Stefanus]

9 hours ago, Marco67 said:

I am afraid that by the time it reaches that size in our country, you will have to become 100 years old. From seed, mine formed its first divided leaves after about 20 years. You have a million times more summer heat than we do. Your Sabal Mexicano looks great by the way. 

Hi Marco, that quite slow indeed. I asume you have it placed in your garden, do you protect it during winter? And is it on a sunny spot in your garden?

[Marco67]

5 hours ago, Stefanus said:

Hi Marco, that quite slow indeed. I asume you have it placed in your garden, do you protect it during winter? And is it on a sunny spot in your garden?

I bought the seeds and planted the seedlings in a warm spot in my garden. Never protected them, and they did fine over the years. It's just warm enough in our climate for them to grow a little bit, but you will need a lot of patience. Trachycarpus and Chamaerops are way better suited for our cool oceanic climate and grow a lot faster but it is nice to have something different in your garden. It's a pity that they are so hard to find in garden centers.

Edited March 15, 2024 by Marco67

[Stefanus]

2 hours ago, Marco67 said:

I bought the seeds and planted the seedlings in a warm spot in my garden. Never protected them, and they did fine over the years. It's just warm enough in our climate for them to grow a little bit, but you will need a lot of patience. Trachycarpus and Chamaerops are way better suited for our cool oceanic climate and grow a lot faster but it is nice to have something different in your garden. It's a pity that they are so hard to find in garden centers.

Good to hear that! I totally agree, I would like to have some Sabal species besides the different forms of Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. But the first divided leafes after 20 years takes quite a while 😲 Also no blooming in these 20 years?

[Marco67]

2 hours ago, Stefanus said:

Good to hear that! I totally agree, I would like to have some Sabal species besides the different forms of Trachycarpus and Chamaerops. But the first divided leafes after 20 years takes quite a while 😲 Also no blooming in these 20 years?

I am afraid not. The Sabal Mccurtain grows a bit faster than the other species it seems and might be flowering soon. 

[Stefanus]

On 3/15/2024 at 7:27 PM, Marco67 said:

I am afraid not. The Sabal Mccurtain grows a bit faster than the other species it seems and might be flowering soon. 

If you harvest some viable seeds I'm interested

 

[Stefanus]

First one popped! 

[Stefanus]

Today I was searching for some seeds and by coincidence I found the palm that is probaly the Sabal from which my seeds were harvested.  Can anyone identify the Sabal in the image below?

[Stefanus]

Does anyone have thoughts/suspicions about the upper image? Can I asume that this is a Mexicana like mentioned in previous replies? 

[Dwarf Fan]

9 hours ago, Stefanus said:

Does anyone have thoughts/suspicions about the upper image? Can I asume that this is a Mexicana like mentioned in previous replies? 

It is not really mature enough for anyone to positively identify at that size.

Sabal Palmetto and Sabal Mexicana are common here so if the Palm was in Texas that would be my guess, but you would need to wait for it to seed to get a positive ID because at the current size it is anybodys guess.

[Stefanus]

12 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

It is not really mature enough for anyone to positively identify at that size.

Sabal Palmetto and Sabal Mexicana are common here so if the Palm was in Texas that would be my guess, but you would need to wait for it to seed to get a positive ID because at the current size it is anybodys guess.

Allright clear, its a photo from 2005 but couldn't find a more recent one, anyways thanks for your reply! 

[Stefanus]

Today I received some Sabal Texana (Mexicana) seeds that I ordered for reference and these are a lot smaller than expected haha. I do not get it anymore.. 😆

[Dwarf Fan]

Where are you getting your seeds from?

[Stefanus]

10 hours ago, Dwarf Fan said:

Where are you getting your seeds from?

The Brazoriensis seeds are from RPS and the Mexicana seeds from a Dutch seed website.

[Stefanus]

Its almost a month since I've potted most of the seeds up.  Only one has become visible above surface. I just noticed that quite a few have grown their roots out of the pot (which is 18cm high), should I consider a even bigger pot?

[Stefanus]

A part of the seeds I did sow in a container as tryout, but I now see that the roots are already tangled. Can I let them stay in this container for another few weeks or would it be very difficult to untangle? 

[Dwarf Fan]

Move them out of the container now or soon before they get more tangled together to minimize damage to the roots.

[Chester B]

I use 41 cm deep tree pots for my Sabals, they have a long tap root.  They can stay in this for a long time.