Florida super hydrophobic soil

[Bkue]

Any remedies or suggestions? 

[kinzyjr]

6 hours ago, Bkue said:

Any remedies or suggestions? 

If the area where you want the water to sink in is not sod, you can take a watering can and water the top of the soil, then turn it over with a hoe or rake.  Continue doing it until it is retaining moisture and turns into mud.

[Fishinsteeg234]

A good layer of mulch/woodchips over the soil will hold moisture and prevent evaporation, add micronutrients, organics, and microbes creating good quality soil over time. This may take a few months, or even the next growing season to create a rich organic soil, but totally worth it to prevent a hydrophobic growing bed. I like to add a layer wood chips or oak leaves a few times a year to all my garden beds to keep the soil healthy. By growing the soil first, your plants will thrive. 
 

There’s a webiste chipdrop.com worth checking out, its fantastic for getting a whole truckload delivered for free, or a small donation will get a quicker delivery, in my experience. 

[sonoranfans]

sand or clay? a;kaline or acid?

[kinzyjr]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

sand or clay? a;kaline or acid?

Good point!  @Bkue's soil might be a lot different than here in the yard. 

1 hour ago, Fishinsteeg234 said:

A good layer of mulch/woodchips over the soil will hold moisture and prevent evaporation, add micronutrients, organics, and microbes creating good quality soil over time. This may take a few months, or even the next growing season to create a rich organic soil, but totally worth it to prevent a hydrophobic growing bed. I like to add a layer wood chips or oak leaves a few times a year to all my garden beds to keep the soil healthy. By growing the soil first, your plants will thrive. 
 

There’s a webiste chipdrop.com worth checking out, its fantastic for getting a whole truckload delivered for free, or a small donation will get a quicker delivery, in my experience. 

Definitely.  I use pine bark in a lot of my beds, stone in others.  During last year's awful rainfall pattern, I turned the pine bark mulch over in the front bed after 3 weeks of no rain and the bottom of the mulch was still moist. 

Appreciate you sharing that link!

[Zeeth]

My soil is crap sand that retains no moisture but repels water when dry. To decrease how hydrophobic the soil is, it helps to increase humic acid content through composting and mulching. It's also possible to increase the water-holding capacity of the soil by amending with a mix of coconut coir, calcined clay, crushed biochar and vermiculite. This also helps increase the cation exchange capacity so it holds more nutrients as well. 

[sonoranfans]

I had water repellent clay near my back fence and water repellent sand on the east side of my yard.  The problem with water repellent sand is that it channels water in the soil so in a worse case scenario you cannot feed or water the roots evenly and you get root dieback and stunted growth or death..  This is generally caused by salts on the sand that repel water.  These salts can be chelated and rinsed away with dilute humic acid solution.  Mulching will take a while to establish itself and generate the humic acid that will cleanse than sand.  SO I first drenched my sandy water repellent soil and then top mulched 3" over the soil.  The mulching will be a continuous humic content that prevents the big buildup fo salts but if the salts are already present a humic acid rinse is the way to go followed closely by the mulching.  Besides those properties already mentioned humic acid conditions soil chemistry that helps beneficial microbes and prevents harmful nematodes that eat roots.  In 2-3 years the mulching part ensures that the humic is there at levels needed to control soil chemistry and enable best nutrient uptake.  One more benefit of mulch is that it keeps soil temps higher for a longer growing season.  The beneficial microbes like that extra warmth, they are more active as the soil warms. 

[Bkue]

Super sand. In Oviedo. Formally woods on top of a hill. When I dug my pool nearly 12ft no water. When it rained, it was bone dry in minutes. The whole acre is like this. Now that we aren’t getting rain, I can run a hose full blast over an area for 2 minutes and still see dry sand with some pressure. I used some surfactants last year but looking for a more permanent solution. 

[happypalms]

Mulch mulch and mulch start feeding your soil with mulch and let the mycelium do there job if that fails bring in some good top soil and start amending your planting holes with soil or make garden beds and fill them up with high quality soil sometimes with sandy soil it’s a process do what I do buy your soil buy the truck load you will be more than happy you purchase your soil but then that’s a cost thing budget or no budget good soil is worth a million bucks if you want a tropical exotic garden not all of us have the luxury of nice flood plain soil my advice is buy your soil if you can afford it 

[sonoranfans]

9 hours ago, Bkue said:

Super sand. In Oviedo. Formally woods on top of a hill. When I dug my pool nearly 12ft no water. When it rained, it was bone dry in minutes. The whole acre is like this. Now that we aren’t getting rain, I can run a hose full blast over an area for 2 minutes and still see dry sand with some pressure. I used some surfactants last year but looking for a more permanent solution. 

time for soil amendment when you have sand in florida.  Ideally you dig holes 3x the potted plant(5-15 gal) and mix in turface MVP(20%), perlite(10-20%) along with equal parts sand and organic matter, but no organics under the palm roots as this will get digested and make the palm sit lower in the ground over a couple years.  If you have already planted, you can still amend around the palms with this mix to 8" deep or so.  Then the final step is to put down 3" top mulch.  I have had my struggles with sandy spots in my yard and I have mulched quite a bit and it continues to disappear over time making mulching an annual event and its increasingly expensive with inflation.   As the mulch is digested the soil dries faster making a moisture sensitivity cycle.  I decided to change my approach a little to get better/longer dry cycle stability in soil without as much of a continual expense.  I now put down Turface MVP when I mulch and use it as a top cover in the non mulched areas like walkways that have lots of roots from nearby palms under the area.  I just got done putting down 6 cubic yards of mulch but this time I also put down 2000lb turface MVP as a top covering, expecting it will work its way into the soil with rain and mulching over time.  Sandy soils are especially tough here in the dry spring, especially when the wind picks up and humidity is low.  I have 2 irrigation events a week through the HOA well water but also supplement that (in absence of rain) with manual sprinkler watering when I see stress.  I am hoping the turface makes my yard much less susceptible to the dry spring dessication.  

[Bkue]

Fortunately I can’t be seen for irrigation restrictions but am tired of huge bills. Working on a few well situations. That said my palms are doing fine with supplemental but the grass is killing me. Other than digging up and adding decent soil how can I fix the crap sand issue? 

[Silas_Sancona]

25 minutes ago, Bkue said:

Fortunately I can’t be seen for irrigation restrictions but am tired of huge bills. Working on a few well situations. That said my palms are doing fine with supplemental but the grass is killing me. Other than digging up and adding decent soil how can I fix the crap sand issue? 

Unfortunately, you're stuck with sand as your soil " base " ( ..The mineral make up of your dirt )   While salt accumulation can cause water phobic issues, it is often dissolved waxes from the leaves of certain plants that have accumulated in the soil over time that cause a majority of these issues.  You mentioned that your area was formally wooded. Would bet several of the natives that grew in those woods were plants that produce these water repelling waxes.. 



@sonoranfans among others have offered up several ideal means of getting your soil to work for you rather than against you..  ...and it will take time to fully remediate. That's just how it goes.  Had the same PITA water- phobic sand issues when i lived in Bradenton, so i understand the annoyance with FL. sand..

As for any lawn areas..  i'd walk around the yard and think on just how much lawn area you actually utilize on a daily / weekly / yearly basis.  Utilize the whole area? ...or just a particular portion of it?  

  What you don't  use ..even if say just 10% of the total lawn area,  kill the grass and add in easy to maintain natives that can be mowed / cut down say once a year  ..whenever they start looking ratty..   Stuff that won't take lots of water to keep up with, and won't blink during drier times, even in sand that drains like a sieve.

Laying down a layer of organic material each year is the easiest thing you can do to help change the behavior of your soil, over time, w/out breaking the bank ...or possibly adding to the water phobic issue.  

 

[Bkue]

I keep turning my hot spots but you can’t give enough water. Was hoping for a real solution. The palms are doing good but feel they could benefit. What I’m really struggling with is grass 

[sonoranfans]

4 hours ago, Bkue said:

I keep turning my hot spots but you can’t give enough water. Was hoping for a real solution. The palms are doing good but feel they could benefit. What I’m really struggling with is grass 

Yeah I have grass too,  the turface MVP is what golf courses use for their grass.  I had your same situation, lots of florida sand away from the house.  I like turface for soil remediation as well.  It holds water very well, maintains good drainage, and is a good cation exchange medium.  The palms will grow faster and more lush as well as the grass.  50 lb is $15.

[Merlyn]

They use Turface MVP for sports fields too, as it retains water, helps with root growth, has cation exchange for better root nutrition, etc.  As Tom said, the long term solution is to add organics and water retention.  In terms of water retention, Turface is cheap and holds about the same amount of water as perlite and pumice.  The below experiment is % water *loss* after soaking a glass of the stuff and then draining it out:

Coconut Coir	14.6%
Akadama	26.7%
Kanuma Pumice	29.0%
Diatomaceous Earth	30.2%
Compost	31.6%
Pine Bark	33.3%
Turface MVP – LECA	36.2%
Perlite	36.4%
Commercial Peat Moss	40.0%
Vermiculite	41.7%
Sand – coarse grit	67.6%
Lava Rock (Scoria)	76.5%
Expanded Shale	84.6%
Granite Chips	94.4%

So adding things like bags of Turface and Compost shredded up and spread loosely on the grass ought to help out fairly quick.  They call it "top dressing" and there's plenty of videos and instructions on line on how to do it.  An aerator might help, but might not do much in pure sand.

I am on the same crap hydrophobic sand here, at least in parts of the property.  I have sprinklers in the front yard, but never turn the valve on.  The grass always suffers and browns out in May and October, but does fine by itself the rest of the year.

Edit: the closest Ewing Irrigation is probably the one in Sanford.  They usually carry 50lb bags of Turface for around $12-15.  That's where I buy mine.

[Bkue]

Do you have to turn the soil or topcoat? 

[sonoranfans]

In planting holes I mix it in, as for establiushed palms its a top coating that will work its way into the sand.  Its an orange color as seen in this pic.  I spread it directly on the grass or sand and also on mulched beds.

 

[FlaPalmLover]

On 5/3/2024 at 7:49 AM, sonoranfans said:

Yeah I have grass too,  the turface MVP is what golf courses use for their grass.  I had your same situation, lots of florida sand away from the house.  I like turface for soil remediation as well.  It holds water very well, maintains good drainage, and is a good cation exchange medium.  The palms will grow faster and more lush as well as the grass.  50 lb is $15.

Where did you buy 50 lbs of turface MVP for $15?

[Johnny Palmseed]

1 hour ago, FlaPalmLover said:

Where did you buy 50 lbs of turface MVP for $15?

 

On 5/4/2024 at 5:54 PM, Merlyn said:

the closest Ewing Irrigation is probably the one in Sanford.  They usually carry 50lb bags of Turface for around $12-15. 

 

[Johnny Palmseed]

I couldn’t recall what I paid but Site One currently sells it for $19.40 so $15 would be a great price. However, Ewing currently lists it for sale in Orlando for $18.49 so that $12-15 is probably not realistic anymore. The product at Site One is called All Sport Pro but I called Turface and they said it’s the same as MVP. It’s just branded as that for Site One.

[Bill H2DB]

On 5/3/2024 at 2:26 AM, Bkue said:

Fortunately I can’t be seen for irrigation restrictions but am tired of huge bills. Working on a few well situations. That said my palms are doing fine with supplemental but the grass is killing me. Other than digging up and adding decent soil how can I fix the crap sand issue? 

    I have the same difficulty with the " strip " of grass along the street , which is of course is in the Right of Way , that I keep as just grass .

  It repels water , and has a slight slope towards the street  , so that water applied at the top area will find its way down to the Street, running across the surface , with virtually no absorption . .

  So , in that area , I often go out , and do a very light hand sprinkling , then wait an hour or more to do a more thorough watering . That does seem to help in absorption . The barrier having been broken a bit .

    Also , I have over the years , I planted clumps of Bahia grass , in little depressions / bowls to catch the water , which helped them to do well , and spread ( slowly ) . After some time these area have become noticeably better at absorption . This area also gets the afternoon sun blast , and the extra insult of the heat generated by the Asphalt street .  Bahia is best in these places . That's why it is used by FDOT etc .  

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, Johnny Palmseed said:

I couldn’t recall what I paid but Site One currently sells it for $19.40 so $15 would be a great price. However, Ewing currently lists it for sale in Orlando for $18.49 so that $12-15 is probably not realistic anymore. The product at Site One is called All Sport Pro but I called Turface and they said it’s the same as MVP. It’s just branded as that for Site One.

The last time I bought it from Ewing was last summer, so our wonderful inflation may have taken its toll here too.  I usually buy 6 bags at a time and just put it on a shelf.  Ewing's website is next to useless IMO, so I don't bother actually trying to find products there.  I do a search for 8-2-12 fertilizer and it returns 1860 results and probably 3 of them are actually fertilizer.  It's worse than the fuzzy search engine on Etsy... 

[redant]

On 5/1/2024 at 12:38 AM, Bkue said:

Super sand. In Oviedo. Formally woods on top of a hill. When I dug my pool nearly 12ft no water. When it rained, it was bone dry in minutes. The whole acre is like this. Now that we aren’t getting rain, I can run a hose full blast over an area for 2 minutes and still see dry sand with some pressure. I used some surfactants last year but looking for a more permanent solution. 

I had for years amended with horse poo and stall shavings, and that helped a lot. U can usually find this for free but it's a ton or work. Any good compost will help but with such a large yard I go for the free stuff. My soil pure white talcum powder sand that repels all water. Hole for my new planting and the palm

[flplantguy]

This is my soil also, thanks for this posting and the info, i will have to make a trip to get some turface soon. Apparently as much as i can afford/carry in the truck at once with prices going up so much!

[Bkue]

On 5/15/2024 at 11:44 AM, redant said:

I had for years amended with horse poo and stall shavings, and that helped a lot. U can usually find this for free but it's a ton or work. Any good compost will help but with such a large yard I go for the free stuff. My soil pure white talcum powder sand that repels all water. Hole for my new planting and the palm

Thanks. Similar here. I don’t have an issue mostly with the statement palms. More looking for a broad range for the understory and lawn. On an acre so have some decent sized open spots. In addition, since super sand I have the mother load of moles. I get several with a steel scissor trap but them combined with super dry ground makes for turf issues.