What Palm Genera have failed the "3 Strikes Rule" for You?

[PalmatierMeg]

If I see one more question about "tell me how to grow royal palms in my yard in Minnesota", my brain will go "poof" to a burnt out cinder. (Hint: turn off FB, Instagram, TikTok et. al., then turn on your browser to Google, Bing, Chrome or whatever software you use to research topics of "ahem" vital interest and start exploring). There is a universe of info out there that doesn't focus solely on kittens, babies and makeup.

It's time to explore a topic of substance and, hopefully, learning that might benefit all of us and affects our palm acquisitions in the future (beware: big Latin words may be exchanged). Topic title: "What is the 3 Strikes Rule and what does it mean to me?"

When I joined PT in 2008 I was an ignorant newbie just given the key to a candy store. I bought palm books (Bedrock's 1993 edition was my first in 1994). I introduced myself (everyone should do that if they're serious about palms) then respectfully peppered them with questions that likely totally annoyed them, particularly members in CA who were in the throes of "Dypsis, Dypsis, Dypsis" mania and had no patience with PTers from "Flori-DUH". I also used Google to look up my own answers if no one bothered to answer me. They couldn't get rid of me that easily. And I began storing up a degree's worth of info. to carry me into the future. PalmTalk is the only social media site I visit regularly. I don't waste time on piffle. I managed to avoid Mark Zuckerberg's tentacles for years and years. I run like a scalded cat from any Chinese-gov't sponsored site - OK, I go no further.

After a couple years hankering after impossible dream palms like the ignorant newbie I was, I established the "3 Strikes and Out" Rule to govern my palm buys. I gave a palm 3 chances to survive in my yard then relegated it to the virtual compost pile. I also upped my research to figure out why it struck out. I had once believed that if I tried hard enough, cared more than anyone else, tinkered long enough, prayed fervently enough, then danced around a bonfire with feather headdress, grass skirt and maracas, I could grow any palm I chose - more the fool me.

People truly believe that FL's climate is year round tropical warmth, gentle rain, and wall to wall balmy sunny days (I can't speak for NFL's continental climate). FL is narrow and stretched out, 350 miles long, with multiple climate zones and 7-month summers that are as brutal as any northern prairie in winter, frightful hurricanes, flooding and stifling swelter). Despite going outdoors at 6:30 a.m. Monday, I managed to give myself heat exhaustion and have felt awful all week.

I know this task may be easier for PTers who live south of the Mason-Dixon Line but, hey, if you don't you may move south or west someday. And it's always good to learn new things.

If you wish to contribute to this fount of info., please work up an alphabetical list of "No-Grow" palms that failed your "3 Strikes Rule" according to the following parameters:

a) List by Genus, not species. Think of Genus (plural "Genera") as a palm's surname, i.e. "Smith". The surname always comes before the species first name and is capitalized. So, "Smith, fred" and "Smith, marianne". I don't care about (uncapitalized ) first names for this list, only surnames.

b) No common names or silly marketing names. Can we dump the "Christmas Palm" moniker here?

c) Why do you think this Genus failed for you? The answer may require in depth research, i.e. my kind of topic

d) What substrate was this Genus planted in? Clay? alkaline Sand? Other?

e) What is your climate? (Mediterranean, Subtropical, Continental etc.?)

Here is my (not necessarily inclusive) List of Failed Palm Genera for SWFL). You may be amazed at what I can't grow

Genus - in Latin

Actinokentia

Actinorhytis

Balaka

Basselinia

Bentinckia

Brahea - arid/desert palms

Calyptrogyne 

Calyptronoma

Ceroxylon - high altitude palm

Clinosperma

Colpothrinax

Cyphokentia

Dictyocaryum - higher altitude palm

Euterpe - cold sensitive

Geonoma - hate FL swelter

Hedyscepe

Hyospathe

Iriartea

Iriartella

Itaya

Juania - "most difficult palm in the world" says it all

Jubaea - higher elevation

Jubaeopsis

Laccosperma

Lepidorrhrachis - high elevation palm

Linospadix

Lytocaryum - need cool nights, less swelter

Maxburretia 

Medemia - arid/desert palm

Metroxylon - very tropical, also monocarpic

Nannorrhops - arid/desert palm

Neoveitchia

Normanbya

Parajubaea

Physokentia

Pigafetta - need a conservatory even in Miami

Prestoea - higher elevation palms, cloud forest

Reinhardtia

Rhapidophyllum - SWFL summers too long, winters too warm

Rhopalostylis

Salacca

Socratea

Sommieria

Trachycarpus - hate long term heat/swelter (temperate, not tropical) and susceptible to nematodes

Welfia

Wettinia

 

[awkonradi]

Washingtonia, Phoenix, Trachycarpus, Chamaerops, Sabal, Butia, Syagrus

[Merlyn]

Hey now...the internet was created for sharing kitty videos!!!   😺

The only ones on my list are:

• Trachycarpus (same reasons as yours)
• Dictyosperma for lack of cold hardiness and susceptibility to crown rot after winter. 
• Latania seedlings withered and died after the first time I hit the mid 30s, so I'm not bothering to try again. 
• Cocos - no chance in the ground here, though I *may* try a patio potted one at some point

There are a whole bunch that I won't bother trying, just because I know they are zone 10+ hardiness.  With regular drops to the upper 20s, there's just no chance for them. 

[PalmatierMeg]

11 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

Hey now...the internet was created for sharing kitty videos!!!   😺

The only ones on my list are:

• Trachycarpus (same reasons as yours)
• Dictyosperma for lack of cold hardiness and susceptibility to crown rot after winter. 
• Latania seedlings withered and died after the first time I hit the mid 30s, so I'm not bothering to try again. 
• Cocos - no chance in the ground here, though I *may* try a patio potted one at some point

There are a whole bunch that I won't bother trying, just because I know they are zone 10+ hardiness.  With regular drops to the upper 20s, there's just no chance for them. 

I hope if I lived near you I would have woken up and smelled the coffee long before I did. But when I was a newby, many people pitched the fallacy that "you live in FL you can grow any palm you want." It didn't help that some FL growers peddle small seedlings of impossible palms to the ignorati, who take every claim as gospel. "He's a grower so knows what grows around here." No, by necessity he has to figure out what sells so he can make money. Employees of BB garden centers are often more ignorant than the ignorati they sell to. You got to learn your palms so you don't get ripped off.

[flplantguy]

I have to hold back my "sciency" side or it puts people off, but i love talking plants with people who know what the genus vs specific epithet vs common names🙄 are (i use them anyway due to a boss that only cared for making a sale and said a common name is "more important" so i had to change). Im sure i will learn more no-gos for here in time, my orchid list of three strikes is long but palms (in personal gardening) are new to me so no list yet. I agree that the internet is collapsing into uselessness and advertising, this is the only place i post too since there is no substance anywhere else. TV is the same, only the real world with my plants is worth my time now and the rest feels hollow. It will be years before i have an official list of off limits palms, but the information shared here has already steered me clear of a few i would die to have (its a fault i have that i always want what wont grow where i live) Too bad, but i wont torture a plant or myself if people already know it will totally fail.  My mistakes are one thing but setting yourself up for failure can really hurt.  I'm glad you never gave up on it, and can give people a dose of reality and helpful insight at the same time.  There are some posters that share gold on here, i hope to be one some day.

[Harry’s Palms]

I was very fortunate to have a mentor early on that would help guide me through my decisions.I would go to a local nursery where he was the manager and he introduced me to the palm world and collectors in my area. I would ride my bicycle to gardens and see what others were growing. I visited our local community college where his friend had planted some rare palms and grew seedlings in a greenhouse on campus. He showed me all of Pauline Sullivan’s properties with mature specimens of various palms. I have had failures and definitely have palms I will not plant but also have palms that I am willing to try if I think they have a chance. . I don’t have a list of my failures and some I’m still not sure why they didn’t make it. Harry

[Merlyn]

@PalmatierMeg I think I lucked out, because my first palms were Phoenix, Butia, Wodyetia, Livistona and Hyophorbe.  When a couple of the Wodyetia and Hyophorbes got torched and/or died the first winter, I really started looking at minimum survival and minimum leaf damage temps.  If I were on the South side of Orlando I might have kept buying zone 10+ palms for years before getting that January 2022 cold blast and losing half my yard.  As it was, I still lost a bunch of sensitive stuff.  It would have been a lot worse if I hadn't made the decision to only buy stuff that was known hardy to the upper 20s.

[kinzyjr]

Here, classic UHI-modified Central Florida climate with excessive daytime heat and highland-modified overnight winter lows during radiational cooling events. Multiple soil regimes on the property including primarily sand with alkaline pH 7.8, mesic hammock loam/humus with acidic pH 5.5-6.6, and a transition zone between the two with neutral pH 6.8-7.2 with a thin layer of clay 2 feet down.  Lot has a 10-12 foot elevation difference from the southwest corner to the northeast corner.  Live oak canopy opens to the south, allowing light under the branches and renders most of the lot frost-free.  Lakes in all 4 directions, but small enough that they have minimal impact.

A few that have made their way onto the no-fly list:

• Ravenea: probably a big surprise since there are mature specimens in my neighborhood, but for whatever reason, they just do not grow well on my lot in any of the different soil regimes.  Just yanked a rotted stem out of the ground from a free triple I adopted.  There is one left and not optimistic that it will be able to overcome the curse.
• Euterpe: Same issue as @Looking Glass.  They look fine one day, then seem to suicide themselves the next.  They have healthy specimens at Hollis Gardens, so gave them a roll of the dice.

A few that should be on the no-fly list, but aren't just yet:

• Medemia: do not care for the soil in at least two areas of the yard.  May try doing the potted specimen thing that works well for Adenium here.  There is a big bag of Bonsai mix in the garage that needs used up anyway.
• Nannorrhops: Ironically, these grow well in the mulched beds... on top of the mulch, but hate the small sand area in the back.  Going to try a few more batches before I scratch these as they grow in other areas of Florida.
• Washingtonia filifera: Robusta grows "OK", filifera is a bit more challenging.  They actually want shade here when it doesn't rain.  Weirdest thing ever for a desert palm.  That said, seeds are reasonably priced and sprouting them is relatively easy.
• Phoenix theophrasti: Others get graphiola leaf spot, but this one species tends to get a leaf spot that is fatal.  In pots, they seem to avoid getting leaf spot, especially if kept under an eave out of the rain and then hand-watered with rain water without pouring it on the fronds and leaflets.
• Brahea: A mixed bag here.  Sometimes they grow well, sometimes they rot.  The one at Lake Wire is fantastic, so going to get some more armata seeds.  The trick seems to be sloped planting in mostly sand.

[Merlyn]

@kinzyjr I considered putting Ravenea on the list also, but I only tried the generic box store Rivularis years ago.  In shady areas they grew fine, if slowly.  Everyone says "sun, lots of water, lots of fertilizer."  In my yard shade, moderate water, normal fertilizer seemed to do okay.  There's a Rivularis with 3 or 4 feet of trunk near me...also in mostly shade.

Brahea is also a mixed bag for me, some are doing great.  I have Nitida and Clara in full sun in the front yard high/sand area doing really well.  In the back yard a very silver Clara is struggling through the winter but grows well in the summer.  I haven't tried any others.

[Billy]

On 5/17/2024 at 5:55 AM, PalmatierMeg said:

If I see one more question about "tell me how to grow royal palms in my yard in Minnesota", my brain will go "poof" to a burnt out cinder. (Hint: turn off FB, Instagram, TikTok et. al., then turn on your browser to Google, Bing, Chrome or whatever software you use to research topics of "ahem" vital interest and start exploring). There is a universe of info out there that doesn't focus solely on kittens, babies and makeup.When I joined PT in 2008 I was an ignorant newbie just given the key to a candy store. I bought palm books (Bedrock's 1993 edition was my first in 1994). I introduced myself (everyone should do that if they're serious about palms) then respectfully peppered them with questions that likely totally annoyed them, particularly members in CA who were in the throes of "Dypsis, Dypsis, Dypsis" mania and had no patience with PTers from "Flori-DUH". I also used Google to look up my own answers if no one bothered to answer me. They couldn't get rid of me that easily. And I began storing up a degree's worth of info. to carry me into the future. PalmTalk is the only social media site I visit regularly. I don't waste time on piffle. I managed to avoid Mark Zuckerberg's tentacles for years and years. I run like a scalded cat from any Chinese-gov't sponsored site - OK, I go no further....

Wow What a read! This was awesome Thanks for sharing

On 5/17/2024 at 5:55 AM, PalmatierMeg said:

 

 

 

[D. Morrowii]

I know my perspective on Florida's climate has changed since I started growing palms. I used to think of the climate here as hot, humid and rainy for 3/4 of the year and comfortably cool and mild in the winter. Now I think it's just kind of brutal. It's not just hot, it can get scorching hot and it gets windy here. So windy sometimes that it can really damage some of the more delicate palms leaflets. It changes regularly too, as soon as we come out of the cold fronts of winter we go into the wind storms of spring, summer is good but it can get too hot and if there is no rain there is no relief. Fall is mostly nice as long as there aren't any hurricanes 🙂 I feel like a lot of the time some of my palms are in constant recovery from one thing or another.

So are we are talking about 3 strikes for in ground long term success or? I don't use a 3 strikes system to figure out when to quit beating the dead horse, I just try until its not enjoyable anymore. For instance, I have killed at least 4 Bentinkia condopanna but I'm still having fun trying to get one to the next stage and I just like having them in the garden to look at....for now.

I'm located on the Central East Coast of the state sub tropical zone 10a about 4 miles from the Atlantic but on a canal in the Banana River. My soil is shelly sand with a 18" stack of imported sandy backfill topped with 12" or so of top soil. There is also quite a bit of debris in the backyard backfill, like broken concrete, bricks, pipe etc. I've never had it tested but I need to do that. 

My potting mix is equal parts of 3 or 4 components and not always the same. I like to use coco coir, calcined clay, native dirt, shell sand and pine bark fines.

As for the "no go" list mine is pretty short since I'm still relatively new to this.

No strikes you're out

1. Cyrtostachys renda. 2. Rhopalostylis 3. Pseudophoenix eckmanii - All beautiful but I just, for now at least don't want to deal with them. No helpful information here but I just decided - Nah.

Tried and failed in pots not interested in trying anymore.

1. Dypsis procera - tried a couple different potting mixes but they just declined and died. Looked terrible most of the time.

2. Orania Trispatha - love the idea of this palm. It looks so different from most others and the eventual distichous frond arrangement sets it apart for me. I've tried a few different potting mixes, watering schedules and fertilizer but I think they just want heat and humidity all the time and if they don't get it the set back lasts for months. This palm also gets a different bug or scale on it that I don't see on most other palms and it takes a pretty good toll on the palm. The bug is hard, dark colored and sparsely located on the leaflets. 

Tried and failed in the ground not interested anymore.

1. Nothing to add here yet. If I had to guess the first one will probably be Bentinkia but not yet.

For the most part If I can keep it alive in a pot for 2 years or so and it survives, then its worth trying in the ground. At this stage its like a dirt trial since it's already survived the open environment.  I think some of the borderline or risky palms are probably better off being at least 7 gallon size before they get planted out to give them a fair chance. Other palms can probably benefit from be planted out when younger. I'm still relatively new (3.5 years or so) to the game so I'm sure I'll change my way of thinking as I get more experience.