Need help for my Pygmy Date Palm (Phoenix Robellini)

[iigreatoneii]

Hey everyone,

I had this tree transplanted from someone’s yard to mine about 2 months ago. It was growing up against the side of their home’s foundation but I was able to get a fairly sizable root ball upon removal so I planted it in my yard and it was green but the new growth at the top has since turned brown. 
 

is it in shock? Is it not getting enough water? I’m trying to save this thing if possible!

[iigreatoneii]

[SeanK]

I'd say transplant shock. Which way did the wall face? Did this have afternoon shade previously?

[iigreatoneii]

The side in the picture was up against a house and I paid a nursery to go dig it out and transplant it in my yard. But it was green until about a month after it was planted in my yard.

yes, it was on the side of a house, with a neighboring house next to it so it was shaded during the afternoon before it was planted in my yard

[iigreatoneii]

The first picture is where the tree was located before I had it dug out, the second is how it looked when it was planted in my yard.

 

 

[Jim in Los Altos]

About half of their fronds should have been removed just prior to transplanting it order to reduce the “load” on the palm’s remaining roots to supply water to the rest of the fronds. Keep the palms well watered, every day, and hope for the best. 

[iigreatoneii]

29 minutes ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

About half of their fronds should have been removed just prior to transplanting it order to reduce the “load” on the palm’s remaining roots to supply water to the rest of the fronds. Keep the palms well watered, every day, and hope for the best. 

Thanks! I removed them a day after the nursery planted it, but I get what you’re saying. 

[iigreatoneii]

5 hours ago, SeanK said:

I'd say transplant shock. Which way did the wall face? Did this have afternoon shade previously?

That’s what I thought but I’m not sure. I put some Palm tree fertilizer and Palm plant food around it about 3-4 weeks ago. I answered your other questions earlier but forgot to quote you.

[SeanK]

14 minutes ago, iigreatoneii said:

That’s what I thought but I’m not sure. I put some Palm tree fertilizer and Palm plant food around it about 3-4 weeks ago. I answered your other questions earlier but forgot to quote you.

Easy on the fert. Those roots need to heal.

[Harry’s Palms]

I moved a pair much like those about 20 years ago . They were , like yours, up against a house . That’s why they were gifted to me. I dug them out as best I could , wrapped the root ball(s) up in burlap and the had to drag them up a hill to my truck. They were very heavy and I’m sure I knocked them about a lot. I found someone to help me load them in my pick up . When I got to my house I soaked the burlap covered roots very thoroughly. I planted them the following day . A few fronds pulled back a bit but they seemed to do well within a few months , never dying back completely. They are now huge! These are very easy to move , just keep them wet . Harry

[iigreatoneii]

44 minutes ago, Harry’s Palms said:

I moved a pair much like those about 20 years ago . They were , like yours, up against a house . That’s why they were gifted to me. I dug them out as best I could , wrapped the root ball(s) up in burlap and the had to drag them up a hill to my truck. They were very heavy and I’m sure I knocked them about a lot. I found someone to help me load them in my pick up . When I got to my house I soaked the burlap covered roots very thoroughly. I planted them the following day . A few fronds pulled back a bit but they seemed to do well within a few months , never dying back completely. They are now huge! These are very easy to move , just keep them wet . Harry

So you think this can survive? I’m worried because some fronds have completely browned as you can see coming out of the top of the tree.

[Harry’s Palms]

Just keep it moist , particularly in warm weather. Yes , I’m pretty sure it will be ok. Harry

[peachy]

About only one thing can kill a Robie and that is root disturbance. Even when I repot them I have to take extra care not to move any roots. Seaweed solution has vitamin B and I use it for repotting and transplanting very successfully usually, but if the rootball on your palms is damaged then only luck will keep it alive.  Be patient, sometimes they look dead for months, then send up a little spear to show you it is okay. They are lovely big specimens so I really hope they survive for you.

Peachy

[Harry’s Palms]

Here in Southern California I’ve had good success with moving them . The ones I have were moved and survived . I moved a smaller one , maybe 2-3’ tall and it was fine . The larger twin did very well and I know I cut some of the roots that were under the edge of the house plus I didn’t want to destroy the garden in front. The homeowner was just going to cut it down so I gambled. Harry

[iigreatoneii]

One more thing, should I throw more dirt over the base? Or is it planted well enough as it is?

[Merlyn]

@iigreatoneii I'd leave the base of the trunk alone for now.  Pygmy dates grow adventitious roots all the time.  I'd also agree with not fertilizing for a while.  If planted from a pot then it's "safer" to put low doses of fertilizer on there.  But on a transplant it'll struggle to grow new roots.  You definitely don't want to burn them.

Can you post a photo up close of the tops of the palms, including the new "spear" leaves?  This will help diagnose if it's possible physical damage or a crown rot that's killing off the leaves.  Treatment of crown rot is easy with hydrogen peroxide and Daconil (among other fungicides) but physical damage (getting whacked during transplant) is just a matter of waiting to see if it'll grow new fronds.

[iigreatoneii]

54 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@iigreatoneii I'd leave the base of the trunk alone for now.  Pygmy dates grow adventitious roots all the time.  I'd also agree with not fertilizing for a while.  If planted from a pot then it's "safer" to put low doses of fertilizer on there.  But on a transplant it'll struggle to grow new roots.  You definitely don't want to burn them.

Can you post a photo up close of the tops of the palms, including the new "spear" leaves?  This will help diagnose if it's possible physical damage or a crown rot that's killing off the leaves.  Treatment of crown rot is easy with hydrogen peroxide and Daconil (among other fungicides) but physical damage (getting whacked during transplant) is just a matter of waiting to see if it'll grow new fronds.

[Merlyn]

@iigreatoneii a couple of questions:

• It looks like many of the 2nd and 3rd row of fronds are mostly green, but the newest fronds in the center are brown and dead.  Is that correct?
• On the centermost fronds and new spears, are they entirely dead or just the ends?  Sometimes the end of a new spear can be damaged and die off, but the bottom end (where it goes into the crown/bud/growing point) is okay. 
• If the innermost fronds are totally dead, try getting up on a 6' stepladder (or similar) and give them a light tug upwards.  If there's serious bud damage or rot, they might pull right out.  Don't use a lot of force.  If you can, sniff the area around the bud to see if there's obvious rot.  Bad bud rot will smell like a rotting McDonalds dumpster on a hot summer day.  Be careful of the thorns, they are extremely stabby.

Have you called the nursery and sent them pictures?  At this point I'm guessing they whacked the bud against something or failed to tie up the fronds before transplant.  It might pull through okay, but it may be worth calling them now and showing them what's happened.

[iigreatoneii]

41 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@iigreatoneii a couple of questions:

• It looks like many of the 2nd and 3rd row of fronds are mostly green, but the newest fronds in the center are brown and dead.  Is that correct?
• On the centermost fronds and new spears, are they entirely dead or just the ends?  Sometimes the end of a new spear can be damaged and die off, but the bottom end (where it goes into the crown/bud/growing point) is okay. 
• If the innermost fronds are totally dead, try getting up on a 6' stepladder (or similar) and give them a light tug upwards.  If there's serious bud damage or rot, they might pull right out.  Don't use a lot of force.  If you can, sniff the area around the bud to see if there's obvious rot.  Bad bud rot will smell like a rotting McDonalds dumpster on a hot summer day.  Be careful of the thorns, they are extremely stabby.

Have you called the nursery and sent them pictures?  At this point I'm guessing they whacked the bud against something or failed to tie up the fronds before transplant.  It might pull through okay, but it may be worth calling them now and showing them what's happened.

First off I want to say thank you to you and everyone who has taken the time to help me this far. I really don’t want to lose this tree. 

Now to answer your bullet points:

Yes, the 2nd and 3rd row of fronds are mostly green (browning on tips) but appear wilted or saggy and are probably due to be cut off in the future after they lose their green color.

The center most fronds were the new growth and they’re mostly brown however after getting up higher today I snapped a few closer pictures and they appear to have a green spine going into the crown. 

I pulled on a couple of the center most fronds and they’re still attached, they didn’t come off easily. I didn’t smell anything while up there but I can try to get closer to determine better. There are a lot of needles up there, more than I figured there would be but I found out while giving them a tug. 😂

I have not tried the nursery simply because they don’t speak English well and I think they struggle to understand what I am asking. I’m also not sure if they’re knowledgeable about palm trees enough to know what to suggest. But I could try to get their opinion as well.

 

 

[Merlyn]

@iigreatoneii so the 1st and 4th pictures look better than the 2nd and 3rd pictures.  By this I mean that in the 1st photo most of the rachis/petioles (the stems of the fronds) are green going into the crown.  That means probably the damage to the fronds and to the bud (growing point inside the head) is cosmetic.  The ends of the fronds and the leaflets were probably still soft and took some physical damage while they were transplanting it.  As long as the petiole/rachis stays green then the bud is probably fine and it'll keep on growing.

The 2nd and 3rd pictures are more questionable, since it looks like the innermost fronds are dead all the way into the bud.  There's a good chance that these will "spear pull" but I would not try and yank them out.  If the frond is still alive down in the bud then it'll keep slowly pushing these out, and hopefully new green ones will grow up in the center.  New fronds may not be easy to see, with probably 5 or 6 dead ones in the way.  You could snip those off about 6 inches above the bud, or just leave them in place.  Personally I'd leave them, because I don't like getting stabbed repeatedly for no good reason.   

As far as treatment, if it were my palm I'd do a 2x or 3x a week squirt of hydrogen peroxide into the crown, alternating with Daconil.  These are the two fungicides I use for crown rots, and I'd use them as a "preventative measure" since there's dead tissue there.  Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful antifungal, and the nice thing about it is that it's super cheap and it foams up in the presence of fungus.  So if you squirt some in there and it bubbles up then there's fungus present.  A couple of bubbles is normal, there's fungus everywhere. 

I'd do a "deep watering" a couple of times per week, at least 5 gallons all at once or leave a hose trickling for an hour in the center of the trunks.  There's probably not a lot of roots after the transplant, and most of them are probably 2-3' down in the ground.  A sprinkler on the surface won't reach them.  I'd also avoid fertilizer for at least 2 months, and then maybe a half a handful of something like PalmGain 8-2-12.

I'd also leave the rest of the fronds on there until they are dry and dessicated.  Palms will "eat" the oldest fronds for nutrients to power new root growth, so you don't want to chop too many off too early.  What you have left looks about right to me for a new transplant.  It'll probably kill off a few more of the lower fronds over the next couple of weeks.

[JLM]

To add on to what @Merlyn has said, I would spread mulch probably 2-3 feet out from the trunks of these palms to help hold in moisture.
 

Those palms before the damages occurred in my opinion is what a roebelenii should always look like. Hopefully we can help you nurse it back to health and eventually back to the state it was in pre transplant!

[iigreatoneii]

1 hour ago, JLM said:

To add on to what @Merlyn has said, I would spread mulch probably 2-3 feet out from the trunks of these palms to help hold in moisture.
 

Those palms before the damages occurred in my opinion is what a roebelenii should always look like. Hopefully we can help you nurse it back to health and eventually back to the state it was in pre transplant!

Thanks, I put 4 bags of this down and put a thin layer of dirt over it already so hopefully that will help it. I’ll throw some mulch on top of the dirt.

[iigreatoneii]

1 hour ago, Merlyn said:

@iigreatoneii so the 1st and 4th pictures look better than the 2nd and 3rd pictures.  By this I mean that in the 1st photo most of the rachis/petioles (the stems of the fronds) are green going into the crown.  That means probably the damage to the fronds and to the bud (growing point inside the head) is cosmetic.  The ends of the fronds and the leaflets were probably still soft and took some physical damage while they were transplanting it.  As long as the petiole/rachis stays green then the bud is probably fine and it'll keep on growing.

The 2nd and 3rd pictures are more questionable, since it looks like the innermost fronds are dead all the way into the bud.  There's a good chance that these will "spear pull" but I would not try and yank them out.  If the frond is still alive down in the bud then it'll keep slowly pushing these out, and hopefully new green ones will grow up in the center.  New fronds may not be easy to see, with probably 5 or 6 dead ones in the way.  You could snip those off about 6 inches above the bud, or just leave them in place.  Personally I'd leave them, because I don't like getting stabbed repeatedly for no good reason.   

As far as treatment, if it were my palm I'd do a 2x or 3x a week squirt of hydrogen peroxide into the crown, alternating with Daconil.  These are the two fungicides I use for crown rots, and I'd use them as a "preventative measure" since there's dead tissue there.  Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful antifungal, and the nice thing about it is that it's super cheap and it foams up in the presence of fungus.  So if you squirt some in there and it bubbles up then there's fungus present.  A couple of bubbles is normal, there's fungus everywhere. 

I'd do a "deep watering" a couple of times per week, at least 5 gallons all at once or leave a hose trickling for an hour in the center of the trunks.  There's probably not a lot of roots after the transplant, and most of them are probably 2-3' down in the ground.  A sprinkler on the surface won't reach them.  I'd also avoid fertilizer for at least 2 months, and then maybe a half a handful of something like PalmGain 8-2-12.

I'd also leave the rest of the fronds on there until they are dry and dessicated.  Palms will "eat" the oldest fronds for nutrients to power new root growth, so you don't want to chop too many off too early.  What you have left looks about right to me for a new transplant.  It'll probably kill off a few more of the lower fronds over the next couple of weeks.

Thank you for your help. I will try alternating between hydrogen peroxide and daconil 2-3 times a week. I’m more hopeful now after hearing from everyone here that I’ll be able save this tree. I wasn’t as confident originally, I was fearing that I was losing it.

[Merlyn]

@iigreatoneii post some update photos in this thread later, hopefully they start growing new fronds in a few weeks.  It might be difficult to see.  One easy (not so easy with the thorns) trick is to mark across the spear leaves with a Sharpie.  That way you can see if fronds are moving without trying to remember what it looked like a few weeks ago.  You might want to tape a sharpie to a stick to mark it...thereby avoiding 11ty billion puncture wounds. 

[iigreatoneii]

On 6/13/2024 at 12:37 PM, Merlyn said:

@iigreatoneii post some update photos in this thread later, hopefully they start growing new fronds in a few weeks.  It might be difficult to see.  One easy (not so easy with the thorns) trick is to mark across the spear leaves with a Sharpie.  That way you can see if fronds are moving without trying to remember what it looked like a few weeks ago.  You might want to tape a sharpie to a stick to mark it...thereby avoiding 11ty billion puncture wounds. 

Will do! If it comes back to life I will post updated pictures.

[iigreatoneii]

Updated pictures, it looks like the shorter half is doing better than the taller half. 
 

images 2& 3 are taller half, 4 & 5 are shorter half

[Harry’s Palms]

That’s a good sign . Keep the faith!! Harry

[Harry’s Palms]

What are your temps like now? Harry

[iigreatoneii]

1 hour ago, Harry’s Palms said:

What are your temps like now? Harry

Averaging 92 during the day and 75 at night here in Florida

I’m thinking it’s about time to trim the fronds again.

[Merlyn]

@iigreatoneii the rest of the fronds seem to have more or less stabilized, but keep an eye on the center fronds to see if they are growing or dying.  

At this point I would not cut off any more fronds unless they are crispy dried brown.  Since it's stabilized then it's probably "eating" the oldest ones a bit slower than before.  But if they are crunchy then by all means clip them off.

BTW - the two palms are separate individuals, so if one dies the other may keep growing anyway.

[Harry’s Palms]

Those temps are pretty warm , especially those night time temps. A lot of palms like cool nights but these are normally ok with those temps. I would just make sure they stay watered until they show signs of new growth at least. Even my established Pygmy palms get lots of water. I am really hoping these come to life , they will be gorgeous. Harry

[iigreatoneii]

Thanks everyone. One more question for ya’s, can you ever really over water these tree’s? When I lived in California they didn’t seem to need much, but in Florida I’m wondering if I should water more. I have a smaller Pygmy in the front planter that is healthy and I haven’t had to water as much as this one. 

[Harry’s Palms]

I think because this Palm is compromised I would use a bit more water than normal. Harry

[Merlyn]

@iigreatoneii if your soil is sandy it'll be difficult to "overwater" a pygmy date.  I have a few with 6-8' of trunk in the backyard in an open sandy area with just a single 2gph dripper on it 40 mins per day = 1.3 gallons.  And in the front yard I have a double a bit taller than yours in my tropical bed.  It gets 40 minutes of torrential downpour sprayers every morning.  Both are totally happy.  After a transplant I'd agree with Harry, a little more water is normal. 

I'm not sure what your weather pattern is there near the coast, but up here we just started the daily afternoon thunderstorms.  Realistically I could turn my watering systems off until October and nothing would even notice.  If you are getting heavy, soaking rains then you could back off a bit on the extra water.  Regular daily rain will keep the soil pretty moist down 1-3ft where the main roots are, and will also soak the upper adventitious roots at the same time.  But if you aren't getting and inch or so per day then just keep on keepin' on! 

[iigreatoneii]

Updated pictures from yesterday, first is the left side and second is the right. The fact that green remains on both sides is keeping me optimistic that I’ll be able save the tree.