Chambeyronia - Tolerance for Slow-Draining Water?

[iDesign]

I'm hoping to plant my beloved Chambeyronia Houailou, but wanted to first check on something...

The spot we're eyeing (in photo below) is in VERY hard ground. While the ground has been broken up quite a bit in the immediate area where it would be planted, water still drains quite slowly (holds water in a borderline "bathtub" hole from early morning until mid afternoon).  I know this makes the spot less than ideal as most palms prefer well-draining soil, but we did have a double Queen Palm in this spot previously that was *surviving* (looked quite sickly, but most Queens in our area do). This spot gets a relatively high amount of sun - which we're pretty sure Houailou can tolerate. We're just not sure about its tolerance for slow-draining water. 🤔

One promising comment I read on the Jungle Music website was the following...

"Like almost all New Caledonian palm trees, this species really appreciates adequate water.  The number one cultural problem experienced by enthusiasts has to do with the restriction of water.  So, if you are growing a Chambeyronia and having trouble, the first thing you do is give it more water....  This genus does not do well with water restriction."

That seems to imply that Chambeyronia Houailou might do really well in this spot. But is letting it stand in a puddle of water from early morning through afternoon really okay? I know it would be for "Archontophoenix cunninghamiana" or "Ravenea rivularis" since they're semi-aquatic... but can Chambeyronia Houailou tolerate these borderline "swampy" conditions?

- If YES then I'll happily plant it!
- If NO then we'll need to come up with a solution for draining the water away from the hole... Or find a different candidate for that spot (we're sadly not interested in putting an Archontophoenix or Ravenea there).

Thoughts?

[Billeb]

Stacy, if it were mine….id plant it out but take a few extra steps.
 

As with most of us, I typically dig the hole deeper than the pot the plants coming out of to put my own recipe of soil in the hole prior to putting the plant in. With your Houailou, I think it’ll be fine but I’d dig the hole way deeper than usual. Like at least twice the depth as usual. Backfill the hole adding almost none of your mix and increase the ratio the more you backfill. This way the roots can slowly ease into native soil instead of abruptly going from the well drained soil into the much harder packed not so well draining medium. This also keeps the water from sitting and puddling at the transition point also.  
 

im not sure that makes so much sense or if you think that would work but as i said, if it were mine….thats how I’d do it. 
 

You got a lot of cool plants to be grounded. The sooner the better. Good luck! 👍🏻

 

-dale 

[Brian]

40 minutes ago, Billeb said:

Backfill the hole adding almost none of your mix and increase the ratio the more you backfill. This way the roots can slowly ease into native soil instead of abruptly going from the well drained soil into the much harder packed not so well draining medium. This also keeps the water from sitting and puddling at the transition point also.  

Great tip! I’m going to have to try this. 

[DoomsDave]

 

53 minutes ago, Billeb said:

Stacy, if it were mine….id plant it out but take a few extra steps.
 

As with most of us, I typically dig the hole deeper than the pot the plants coming out of to put my own recipe of soil in the hole prior to putting the plant in. With your Houailou, I think it’ll be fine but I’d dig the hole way deeper than usual. Like at least twice the depth as usual. Backfill the hole adding almost none of your mix and increase the ratio the more you backfill. This way the roots can slowly ease into native soil instead of abruptly going from the well drained soil into the much harder packed not so well draining medium. This also keeps the water from sitting and puddling at the transition point also.  
 

im not sure that makes so much sense or if you think that would work but as i said, if it were mine….thats how I’d do it. 
 

You got a lot of cool plants to be grounded. The sooner the better. Good luck! 👍🏻

 

-dale 

1 hour ago, iDesign said:

I'm hoping to plant my beloved Chambeyronia Houailou, but wanted to first check on something...

The spot we're eyeing (in photo below) is in VERY hard ground. While the ground has been broken up quite a bit in the immediate area where it would be planted, water still drains quite slowly (holds water in a borderline "bathtub" hole from early morning until mid afternoon).  I know this makes the spot less than ideal as most palms prefer well-draining soil, but we did have a double Queen Palm in this spot previously that was *surviving* (looked quite sickly, but most Queens in our area do). This spot gets a relatively high amount of sun - which we're pretty sure Houailou can tolerate. We're just not sure about its tolerance for slow-draining water. 🤔

One promising comment I read on the Jungle Music website was the following...

"Like almost all New Caledonian palm trees, this species really appreciates adequate water.  The number one cultural problem experienced by enthusiasts has to do with the restriction of water.  So, if you are growing a Chambeyronia and having trouble, the first thing you do is give it more water....  This genus does not do well with water restriction."

That seems to imply that Chambeyronia Houailou might do really well in this spot. But is letting it stand in a puddle of water from early morning through afternoon really okay? I know it would be for "Archontophoenix cunninghamiana" or "Ravenea rivularis" since they're semi-aquatic... but can Chambeyronia Houailou tolerate these borderline "swampy" conditions?

- If YES then I'll happily plant it!
- If NO then we'll need to come up with a solution for draining the water away from the hole... Or find a different candidate for that spot (we're sadly not interested in putting an Archontophoenix or Ravenea there).

Thoughts?

Bless both your hearts for planting with your brains!

Not easy, as I well know.

Stacey, I'd follow dale's suggestion, but go a step further: see if you can, somehow, some way, bust down below that bad-draining dirt into something better. Sometimes you have lumps of dirt that get packed and the rest isn't. I'd fuss a bit because Houailous are pretty dear on the market and I'd be a bit over-careful.

While New Caledonians like their water, I'd be really concerned about a big wet winter that floods and floods and floods, which I've experienced. Lots of water is one thing, a swamp is another.

Of course, if someone here has had Houailous get in a swamp and survive or thrive, what they say is better than what I say. But my two have good drainage and are loving it.

[Billeb]

34 minutes ago, Brian said:

Great tip! I’m going to have to try this. 

Brian,

this is how I’ve always grounded out all my plants but not to such drastic measure. My soil is pretty good so it’s not so important to ensure the transition is very deep. It seems to have worked for me with good results. 

I’ve always thought this could explain why plants seem to be doing well for a year or more then all of a sudden they seem to stall or worse, up and croak for no reason.  It makes sense to me but I may be thinking into it too much. 
 

Happy planting!! 

-dale 

[Aloha Palms]

I have a 5 gallon houailou that is in 100% clay that has been in the ground for about a year that is growing well. It is slower than I anticipated but I planted it in a shaded area and I believe that’s why. It has pushed 2 fronds in that year.

[happypalms]

I would be more than happy to plant your palm in those conditions I have one sitting in a tray of water and it loves it go for it plant away.

[TomJ]

I planted these in 100% straight clay.

They love water and constantly wet feet.

Water retention, not drainage would be my concern.

Gradual sun exposure would be a bigger concern for me.

Tom

[rizla023]

I also follow @Billeb tip and use my own soil plus around 30-40% native soil to help establish healthy, long term roots. My cham houailou is in mostly full shade though. I’m in Santa Ana, CA. It just opened its second frond since planting last year. 
I do not have drainage issues so I’m not totally familiar but I do practice mulching and add organic material to break up hard clay soils. Do not use sand if working with clay.

[DoomsDave]

15 hours ago, Aloha Palms said:

I have a 5 gallon houailou that is in 100% clay that has been in the ground for about a year that is growing well. It is slower than I anticipated but I planted it in a shaded area and I believe that’s why. It has pushed 2 fronds in that year.

They're a lot slower than macrocarpa and hookeri anyway.

[iDesign]

On 6/15/2024 at 10:25 AM, TomJ said:

Gradual sun exposure would be a bigger concern for me.

Sadly this comment ended up being prophetic.

I had been acclimating my Houailou to sun for a while now, but it was primarily the fronds that were exposed to sun.  After testing it in the actual location (in a pot), the trunk began to burn. I suppose it might acclimate better if I were to try exposing the TRUNK to sun gradually... but I like this palm enough that I assume I shouldn't subject it to further sun torture tests (right)?

Photo below shows the sun damage to my Houailou trunk. Does everyone agree that this spot is not good for my Houailou (based on these marks)... or is this something it could acclimate to? My preference would still be to put my Houailou in this spot (since it's a highly featured location visually)... but am resigned to the fact that the sun here is probably too intense for it (unless you disagree - I could put it back VERY quickly if you think it could adjust to this amount of sun).

[D. Morrowii]

I assumed that the entire plant acclimates but maybe I’m wrong. Sometimes I’ll let the sun burn off 1 frond, as in the palm is half in and half out of the sun. Then start giving the whole palm more and more full sun starting with 2-3 hours a day and seeing how it does. With this palm I thought I read somewhere that they liked full sun at a young age lol Wrong! I put this little guy out in several hours per day sun (right out of the shade cloth) and its not doing too bad but it definitely suffered. If I start to get worried I usually just put a taller chaperone palm next to it for a few weeks. I can say that I did much worse stem/crownshaft damage than that to my P. speciosa and it pulled through just fine.  
 

[iDesign]

2 minutes ago, D. Morrowii said:

I assumed that the entire plant acclimates but maybe I’m wrong...

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about. The fronds on my Houailou have been acclimating to sun for a while now, and actually did pretty well in the new full-sun location. But I'm likewise curious whether the base of the plant can "acclimate" over time - as in, it would show burn marks initially, but not show burn marks over time.

I'm currently thinking that the trunk would always burn if I left it in my preferred location, based on the fact that I have a Chamaedorea palm in a too-sunny spot that shows trunk burns on the stalks every summer. But I would love to hear that the TRUNKS of chambeyronia Houailou might acclimate to more sun in time. 🤞

[sonoranfans]

full sun in one place is not like full sun in another.  My own experience with chambeyronias is they are happier in at least part shade, they dont like florida sun, especially western sun.  Mine also have better color and are happier in the cooler part of the year.  Any palm I plant must have drainage, uniform drainage in the rootball area, no clay clumps in the soil mix near fist size.  Drainage/breathing of the soil allows for removal of fertilizer waste and for the new influx of nutrients.  I tend to use perlite when possible as an ammendment in poor drainage areas, as it prevents soil compaction in the present and the future.  If an 18" deep hole drains in 4 hours you are fine, I think.   Dig a hole and watch/time how long it takes.  And yes underwatering is a disaster for chambeyronias.

[KrisKupsch]

On 6/15/2024 at 11:41 AM, iDesign said:

I'm hoping to plant my beloved Chambeyronia Houailou, but wanted to first check on something...

The spot we're eyeing (in photo below) is in VERY hard ground. While the ground has been broken up quite a bit in the immediate area where it would be planted, water still drains quite slowly (holds water in a borderline "bathtub" hole from early morning until mid afternoon).  I know this makes the spot less than ideal as most palms prefer well-draining soil, but we did have a double Queen Palm in this spot previously that was *surviving* (looked quite sickly, but most Queens in our area do). This spot gets a relatively high amount of sun - which we're pretty sure Houailou can tolerate. We're just not sure about its tolerance for slow-draining water. 🤔

One promising comment I read on the Jungle Music website was the following...

"Like almost all New Caledonian palm trees, this species really appreciates adequate water.  The number one cultural problem experienced by enthusiasts has to do with the restriction of water.  So, if you are growing a Chambeyronia and having trouble, the first thing you do is give it more water....  This genus does not do well with water restriction."

That seems to imply that Chambeyronia Houailou might do really well in this spot. But is letting it stand in a puddle of water from early morning through afternoon really okay? I know it would be for "Archontophoenix cunninghamiana" or "Ravenea rivularis" since they're semi-aquatic... but can Chambeyronia Houailou tolerate these borderline "swampy" conditions?

- If YES then I'll happily plant it!
- If NO then we'll need to come up with a solution for draining the water away from the hole... Or find a different candidate for that spot (we're sadly not interested in putting an Archontophoenix or Ravenea there).

Thoughts?

I’ve 7 Chambeyronia houailouensis in a certain section of the farm that when wet ponds water and they are fine. I wouldn’t suggest it but they tolerate it. 

[KrisKupsch]

On 6/16/2024 at 6:39 AM, DoomsDave said:

They're a lot slower than macrocarpa and hookeri anyway.

Mmmm maybe depends on your climate, I’ve quite a few and some are not slower than macrocarpa or hookeri, much the same really. 

[KrisKupsch]

36 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

full sun in one place is not like full sun in another.  My own experience with chambeyronias is they are happier in at least part shade, they dont like florida sun, especially western sun.  Mine also have better color and are happier in the cooler part of the year.  Any palm I plant must have drainage, uniform drainage in the rootball area, no clay clumps in the soil mix near fist size.  Drainage/breathing of the soil allows for removal of fertilizer waste and for the new influx of nutrients.  I tend to use perlite when possible as an ammendment in poor drainage areas, as it prevents soil compaction in the present and the future.  If an 18" deep hole drains in 4 hours you are fine, I think.   Dig a hole and watch/time how long it takes.  And yes underwatering is a disaster for chambeyronias.

Houailou prefer shade when sub 2 years planted. After that they are fine in full sun, might bleach a little but become accustomed to it. 

[BS Man about Palms]

I hope you have planted it by now. We have very similar climates and I have plenty of clay. It will burn a bit, but recover. Santa Ana's will be your biggest issue when the humidity drops. The trunk is eventually gray anyway.

 

But what do I know anyway.. 🙃

 

 

[Merlyn]

I had some small 1-2' tall Chambeyronia in basically full sun in FL.  They hated it initially, but the burning stopped after a few weeks and the new fronds came out looking fine.  Unfortunately the frost killed them all at ~27-28F in the first winter, so at my house they are a shade palm only. 

The other triple that I just moved were in the center of my nursery area.  They got completely drenched with dripline sprayers-on-a-stick every single morning, and the soil was continually wet and rich.  These grew great with the exception of one not liking the sprayer hitting the crown all the time...it got minor crown rot infections frequently.  I just moved them because they waaaaay outgrew the spot.  They were just too close to the house:

[Tracy]

On 6/14/2024 at 6:41 PM, iDesign said:

That seems to imply that Chambeyronia Houailou might do really well in this spot. But is letting it stand in a puddle of water from early morning through afternoon really okay? I know it would be for "Archontophoenix cunninghamiana" or "Ravenea rivularis" since they're semi-aquatic... but can Chambeyronia Houailou tolerate these borderline "swampy" conditions?

The one challenge in comparing how much water they can tolerate from one part of the world to another is that it doesn't necessarily take into account what that pooling will mean during our cool winters.  I'm sure that in warmer winter climates they can handle quite a bit more water pooling.  I don't have an answer for you Stacey, but just wanted to mention that qualifier as you seek input.

I don't have Chambeyronia houailouensis in Carlsbad where I have the heavy clay soil that is similar to the soil you have.  The Chambeyronia macrocarpa and hookeri there are on slopes so get some help with drainage and I heavily amended the soil before planting them.  Here in Leucadia where my C houailouensis is growing, I have the fast draining sandy soil so not a good comparison.