Cold-Hardy Palm Attempts in Nova Scotia, Canada

[MrTropical]

An interesting read based in the community of Dartmouth in Nova Scotia, Canada...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/palm-trees-dartmouth-all-dead-1.7226399


Share your thoughts.

6-26-2024

[Silas_Sancona]

8 minutes ago, MrTropical said:

An interesting read based in the community of Dartmouth in Nova Scotia, Canada...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/palm-trees-dartmouth-all-dead-1.7226399


Share your thoughts.

6-26-2024

A interesting read.. Wonder if planting any against the south facing side of a tall building rather than out where fully exposed might change outcomes..



Have to say i found the " we have heat waves "   mention funny though .. Heatwave in Nova Scotia sounds like a " warm " day spent in Half Moon Bay or San Francisco = i'd probably still be freezing, lol.

[MrTropical]

1 minute ago, Silas_Sancona said:

A interesting read.. Wonder if planting any against the south facing side of a tall building rather than out where fully exposed might change outcomes..



Have to say i found the " we have heat waves "   mention funny though .. Heatwave in Nova Scotia sounds like a " warm " day spent in Half Moon Bay or San Francisco = i'd probably still be freezing, lol.

100% - siting is vital.

Another error that was made (judging by the quote from staff members anyway) was the lack of a heat source within those structures. A sturdy wooden structure is great, along with the insulation of the trunks as they mentioned; but that's not enough in the average Atlantic Canada climate.

I also found that funny - I guess the term "heat wave" is relative, lol

6-26-2024
 

[PalmsInBaltimore]

There's a Canadian competition show called "Race Against the Tide," where the object is to build a sand castle as fast as possible before the incoming tide inevitably wipes it out. This reminds me of that.

Still, I have to give them credit. Apparently if a windmill palm is lucky enough to have its own "staff" taking care of it in the Canadian winter, it has a chance of surviving a few years. That's pretty cool, I guess. They were out of their minds thinking the other palms would ever have a chance though. I'm surprised the windmills outlasted the needle palm. Maybe the needle was a small specimen and didn't get as much love as the tree palms did.  

If the town ever tries this again, they should consider planting on the south side of a stone building in the middle of the hottest part of Dartmouth's heat island, which is probably still really cold hahaha. Nova Scotia climate strikes me as more similar to Scotland than Southern Ontario, but I could be wrong when it comes to summers. 

Either way, I do applaud them. I agree with the guy in the article who said:

• "There's a long tradition in the gardening world about exhibiting exotic species that people don't necessarily have a chance to go to see themselves," said Austin, noting there are many foreign species on display at the Halifax Public Gardens. "Trying this out in Dartmouth was very much just kind of part of that space of trying to bring something different to people here and spread a little joy. And I think for the time we had them, they did that job."

[Chester B]

Nova Scotia is simply too cold in winter and too cool in summer.  Take this from a Canadian.  They will only ever survive with extensive protection.  Only two spots have the capability of growing palms, that being the SW coast of BC and and associated islands, and SW Ontario which is still real dicey.  In SW Ontario (zone 7), the only palms with a chance of success are Needles and Sabal minor, but a long cold spell will kill them.  So realistically in Ontario they will need some sort of protection.  Take this from a former Ontario palm grower.

Monthly weather averages for Halifax - no palm can survive this.

[Chester B]

And here is about as good as you get for SW Ontario (Right by Detroit)

Amherstburg, Ontario Monthly Weather Averages

[RJ]

Funny I’m up north visiting family, we just got done with the NWS’s definition of a heat wave, 3 days in a row above 90. Family/Friends who live up here are all dying complaining how hot it is, sweating profusely all why I’m not even breaking a sweat, nor is anyone in my family. This morning I just looked at my homes weather forecast back south, a  high today of 102 with heat indexes around 110. It’s been over 90 for weeks, with hardly a drop of rain and nigh-time lows and in the mid 70’s. 
 

just shows how people’s perception of heat or lack there of changes drastically based on their normal’s.  Just like gong to Florida in the winter and it’s in the mid 70’s. All the locals are wearing sweaters while anyone from up north is running around in shorts and a t-shirt like it’s summer. 
 

that’s why I always get a chuckle when someone from up north says we get “hot” or we have heat waves. They’re apples and oranges, no comparison whatsoever. 
 

 

[PalmsInBaltimore]

I have a feeling everyone in that town knew the palms were on borrowed time as soon as they were planted in the ground. 

But I still think it's sort of cool. They only paid $4,000 for the initial group of palms and only replaced one windmill, from what I'm understanding from the article. They also used existing staff to care for them. Maybe they should consider some sort of local botanical garden or greenhouse, but that would cost way more than a few thousand dollars.  

It's no surprise to anyone the palms all died, but I am surprised that one of the windmills lasted from 2018 to 2023. That's five more years than I would've guessed it could survive, even with a dedicated team of people protecting it. It goes to show that, in theory, a palm could cling to life for years way further north than anyone would've guessed. 

Not the worst experiment for a couple thousand dollars. I would bet there are people in Halifax who have never seen a palm in their lives and who think palm trees all look like coconut trees they see on TV. The town provided some education on the wide range of palm species out there by showcasing windmills, needles, and pindo. 

I mean, how many east coast beach towns across the US that are far far far outside the grow zones of any tropical plants truck in coconuts and majesties and christmas palms by the thousands, just to plant them for a season and then pay landscapers to haul them away to the dumpster in October/November? At least in this case the town actually tried to learn about the palms and challenged themselves to keep them alive as long as possible, until the inevitable. 

[Chester B]

2 hours ago, PalmsInBaltimore said:

I mean, how many east coast beach towns across the US that are far far far outside the grow zones of any tropical plants truck in coconuts and majesties and christmas palms by the thousands, just to plant them for a season and then pay landscapers to haul them away to the dumpster in October/November?

They sort of do the same thing in Ontario except they pull the palms and put them in greenhouses over winter.  They tend to use big queens though, primarily at the beaches.

Those Trachies in NS only looked decent the first year, after that they were pretty sad.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

Yes, they probably would've looked a little less rough if the town paid to store them somewhere during the winters. It's not clear that anyone considered that, but maybe if they ever try this again

[Silas_Sancona]

5 hours ago, Chester B said:

Nova Scotia is simply too cold in winter and too cool in summer.  Take this from a Canadian.  They will only ever survive with extensive protection.  Only two spots have the capability of growing palms, that being the SW coast of BC and and associated islands, and SW Ontario which is still real dicey.  In SW Ontario (zone 7), the only palms with a chance of success are Needles and Sabal minor, but a long cold spell will kill them.  So realistically in Ontario they will need some sort of protection.  Take this from a former Ontario palm grower.

Monthly weather averages for Halifax - no palm can survive this.

 Hard to believe there could be a place with temps. that could beat the PAC N.W. on the " Often Miserable Weather " scale, lol.. 

Interesting that N.C. is about the same latitude as Portland Oregon as well  yet Portland would be " hot and tropical-esque " ( Able to grow various palms there ) compared to N.C. ..



 

3 hours ago, RJ said:

Funny I’m up north visiting family, we just got done with the NWS’s definition of a heat wave, 3 days in a row above 90. Family/Friends who live up here are all dying complaining how hot it is, sweating profusely all why I’m not even breaking a sweat, nor is anyone in my family. This morning I just looked at my homes weather forecast back south, a  high today of 102 with heat indexes around 110. It’s been over 90 for weeks, with hardly a drop of rain and nigh-time lows and in the mid 70’s. 
 

just shows how people’s perception of heat or lack there of changes drastically based on their normal’s.  Just like gong to Florida in the winter and it’s in the mid 70’s. All the locals are wearing sweaters while anyone from up north is running around in shorts and a t-shirt like it’s summer. 
 

that’s why I always get a chuckle when someone from up north says we get “hot” or we have heat waves. They’re apples and oranges, no comparison whatsoever. 
 

 

I laugh at any/everyone under 75-80 outside this part of the country where it can also get somewhat hot every so often during the Spring / Summer,  who often howl for dayzz  whenever it gets over 30-37C for a couple days / weeks during a heatwave.. 

To the howlers, please come on out here and endure some real heat,  which = Air  temps of 40-48C+  for 4 months straight   ...then get back to me about it being  " hot "   lol..

Lived in pretty much every other " hot " spot in the country/ worked outside in all of them.  None are hotter than here,  even w/ humidity / dew point influence on the air temp.  factored in..


That said,  if you live in a moderate climate locale like say  San Fran.,  the far PAC. N.W. / nearby areas of Canada / S. Alaska,  ...or some place in the far Northeast U.S.  where back to back days at / above 38C / 100F heat is practically un-heard of,  ....for now at least... 

Those folks are the only people who have a good reason to air grievance about such heat when it occurs..

Everyone else?  Grab a refreshing drink and have a seat, ...preferably in some shade.

[RJ]

2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

 Hard to believe there could be a place with temps. that could beat the PAC N.W. on the " Often Miserable Weather " scale, lol.. 

Interesting that N.C. is about the same latitude as Portland Oregon as well  yet Portland would be " hot and tropical-esque " ( Able to grow various palms there ) compared to N.C. ..



 

I laugh at any/everyone under 75-80 outside this part of the country where it can also get somewhat hot every so often during the Spring / Summer,  who often howl for dayzz  whenever it gets over 30-37C for a couple days / weeks during a heatwave.. 

To the howlers, please come on out here and endure some real heat,  which = Air  temps of 40-48C+  for 4 months straight   ...then get back to me about it being  " hot "   lol..

Lived in pretty much every other " hot " spot in the country/ worked outside in all of them.  None are hotter than here,  even w/ humidity / dew point influence on the air temp.  factored in..


That said,  if you live in a moderate climate locale like say  San Fran.,  the far PAC. N.W. / nearby areas of Canada / S. Alaska,  ...or some place in the far Northeast U.S.  where back to back days at / above 38C / 100F heat is practically un-heard of,  ....for now at least... 

Those folks are the only people who have a good reason to air grievance about such heat when it occurs..

Everyone else?  Grab a refreshing drink and have a seat, ...preferably in some shade.

My wife lived in phoenix about 25 years ago loved it, to arid for my likes. Her beef with the heat out there compared to here is that she couldn’t drink enough water out there to keep her contacts in. Her eyes always dried out and she had to wear her glasses. My wife loves the heat, she’s a runner with nearly 10 marathons under her belt. She ran out there in the heat and does the same out here. I consider her an excellent gauge in heat.  

 

fyi I’m currently about 15 miles from the Canadian boarder  as the crow flies. So these are folks that certainly don’t have hot days very often. This is the North East US. 

[Silas_Sancona]

10 minutes ago, RJ said:

My wife lived in phoenix about 25 years ago loved it, to arid for my likes. Her beef with the heat out there compared to here is that she couldn’t drink enough water out there to keep her contacts in. Her eyes always dried out and she had to wear her glasses. My wife loves the heat, she’s a runner with nearly 10 marathons under her belt. She ran out there in the heat and does the same out here. I consider her an excellent gauge in heat.  

 

fyi I’m currently about 15 miles from the Canadian boarder  as the crow flies. So these are folks that certainly don’t have hot days very often. This is the North East US. 

It's a different feel, esp. if you didn't grow up in the general region.  Could drink enough fluids to stay hydrated in humid FL and KS,   tougher to do here or out in CA.. ..And the effects of not being properly hydrated can sneak up on you rather than provide obvious signals.. We've had folks in their 20s / 30s die of heat exhaustion when it is only in the mid 80s out.

What's kind of funny abut living in a really dry place is  it becomes easy to notice even a tiny rise in humidity / dew points after awhile.. Hardly noticed the opposite in FL.

Have found that drinking Milk provides better hydration than water as well.. Can't drink enough water, and the  Electrolyte stuff,  most of those drinks don't work either..  Only time i'll rely on those ( Pediylite only ) is if i'm on a hike lasting more than a couple hours.

AFAIC, Anywhere north and east of a line from N. Eastern Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan due east to Long Island / NYC, = N. Eastern US to me.. 

Agree that 100F heat is quite uncommon in that part of the country ..which makes it extra dangerous. 

N and S. Dakota / W. and S. Minnesota have seen 95-100F heat a little more regularly so people there have at least some experience w/ it  .. Definitely not as common as here however,   and still a threat to health.. 

[RJ]

5 minutes ago, Silas_Sancona said:

It's a different feel, esp. if you didn't grow up in the general region.  Could drink enough fluids to stay hydrated in humid FL and KS,   tougher to do here or out in CA.. ..And the effects of not being properly hydrated can sneak up on you rather than provide obvious signals.. We've had folks in their 20s / 30s die of heat exhaustion when it is only in the mid 80s out.

What's kind of funny abut living in a really dry place is  it becomes easy to notice even a tiny rise in humidity / dew points after awhile.. Hardly noticed the opposite in FL.

Have found that drinking Milk provides better hydration than water as well.. Can't drink enough water, and the  Electrolyte stuff,  most of those drinks don't work either..  Only time i'll rely on those ( Pediylite only ) is if i'm on a hike lasting more than a couple hours.

AFAIC, Anywhere north and east of a line from N. Eastern Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan due east to Long Island / NYC, = N. Eastern US to me.. 

Agree that 100F heat is quite uncommon in that part of the country ..which makes it extra dangerous. 

N and S. Dakota / W. and S. Minnesota have seen 95-100F heat a little more regularly so people there have at least some experience w/ it  .. Definitely not as common as here however,   and still a threat to health.. 

she did try to fry an egg on the road out there, didn’t work but she said it was still friggen hot. She really hated wearing her glasses all the time, she’s blind as a bat so that I’m sure attributed to it as well. 
 

she drinks many litters a day, always has a water bottle. She’s not a milk fan, unlike me. Whole milk all the way here. 

[kinzyjr]

A few additional threads on palms in Nova Scotia:

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/67277-eastern-canada-thread/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/57420-ambitious-halifax-to-test-palm-hardiness/

https://www.palmtalk.org/forum/topic/48201-advise-on-growing-houseplant-palms/