Help! Wind damage, parasite or something else?! [Photos]

[DanPalm]

Hey guys,

first post here, small intro:

I am Dan and have a small garden in southern italy, I love plants and animals alike and love spending time in nature. Originally I am not from the same climate, so when and how to prune plants and how to treat them is totally different here compared to what I am used to (very exciting but also sometimes nerve wrecking)

I also never had a palm tree before  and it does look ill right now :(

The one I have is a European Fan Palm (?) and it did very well, usually I dont directly water it, but there are plants nearby that get watered every evening through the dry summers

After the winter I usually cut the older leaves but didnt get around to doing so until now and last week the palm started to look really "unhappy" (the pictures are after I took away the wilted leaves from the winter)

We had a storm before that, maybe the leaves got twisted to much? 

I also noticed puncture marks, but they could also be from the other leaves?! I thought it could be from a bug? (I did not notice any sawdust from moth infection)

Almost all the leaves have those two brown streaks running along the leaf's stem, in other plants thats a sign, but I dont know what it means for palm trees

The Spear-Leaf looks good though

I am confused

 

I included a picture of the "straw" right under the crown, I thought it wouldnt hurt, maybe there is something to see

‐------

thanks in advance, I really appreciate your help!

[DanPalm]

does anyone have input regarding this topic?

Appreciate all the help I can get!

[Merlyn]

@DanPalm the holes might be RPW - Red Palm Weevil.  It burrows into the leaves and eats the heart of the palm.  If you catch it soon enough it can be killed off and the palm will survive.  I think the normal treatment is a systemic insecticide like Imadicloprid.  I'm not sure what's available in Italy.  Here is one threat on RPW treatments:

Apparently pouring insecticide into the holes with a small funnel works.  I'm sure there are a bunch of other threads on treaments here, just do a search for "RPW" or "Red Palm Weevil". 

BTW - the palm looks like a Livistona Chinensis to me, aka "Chinese Fan Palm."  The "European Fan Palm" is much smaller and a clustering palm, Chamaerops Humilis.

[maxum2610]

I had the same in a Pritchardia in Moraira Spain. In my case it wasn't RPW, which needs hairy trunk palms to form cocoons for it's larvas. The culprit is Paysandisia Archon which, unfortunately, attacks all palms, and has widely spread in the mediterranean region. While there are pheromone traps for the RPW, to my knoiwledge, nothing currently exists for P.A. An Imadicloprid based insecticide or spraying with a Neem oil based solutions should take care of it.

[Phoenikakias]

19 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@DanPalm the holes might be RPW - Red Palm Weevil.  It burrows into the leaves and eats the heart of the palm.  If you catch it soon enough it can be killed off and the palm will survive.  I think the normal treatment is a systemic insecticide like Imadicloprid.  I'm not sure what's available in Italy.  Here is one threat on RPW treatments:

Apparently pouring insecticide into the holes with a small funnel works.  I'm sure there are a bunch of other threads on treaments here, just do a search for "RPW" or "Red Palm Weevil". 

BTW - the palm looks like a Livistona Chinensis to me, aka "Chinese Fan Palm."  The "European Fan Palm" is much smaller and a clustering palm, Chamaerops Humilis.

Rather a Washie

[maxum2610]

Indeed. The palm above is a washie. RPW doesn't do washies.

 

[Phoenikakias]

57 minutes ago, maxum2610 said:

Indeed. The palm above is a washie. RPW doesn't do washies.

 

Yet it does but quite rarely. However there is also a second pest with boring larvae in Europe, which has been already mentioned.  The overall look of the palm, which seems ready to collapse, indicates imo an rpw infestation.

[Fusca]

That palm is no longer robust-a.  

[Merlyn]

5 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

Rather a Washie

Oh yeah, durrrrrrr.    I blame my phone's tiny screen for that, I couldn't see the stringy fibers.

[DanPalm]

damn, just when I thought it might just have been wind damage...

So I'll drown the holes it in neem oil and hope the Paysandisia Archon dies?
Or do I hit it with the big Pesticide against RPW right away just to make sure?

Let's see if I can save it 🤞

There is no prevention from RPW/Paysandisia Archon right? (for future palms, I LOVE them :D)
*edit* I read that the pesticides also prevent infestation with the bug

Respect to you guys, the more I read about pests and illnesses in palms it must be really frustrating:
"oh your palm has this fungus and is dead, also never plant another palm in the same spot anymore, see you"
"ohhh, you see those small holes in the side of the trunk? yep, your palm is dead, you just dont know yet, have a nice day" 

:DD (I try to laugh but actually I cry)

Edited June 29, 2024 by DanPalm
new information came up

[Phoenikakias]

8 hours ago, DanPalm said:

damn, just when I thought it might just have been wind damage...

So I'll drown the holes it in neem oil and hope the Paysandisia Archon dies?
Or do I hit it with the big Pesticide against RPW right away just to make sure?

Let's see if I can save it 🤞

There is no prevention from RPW/Paysandisia Archon right? (for future palms, I LOVE them :D)
*edit* I read that the pesticides also prevent infestation with the bug

Respect to you guys, the more I read about pests and illnesses in palms it must be really frustrating:
"oh your palm has this fungus and is dead, also never plant another palm in the same spot anymore, see you"
"ohhh, you see those small holes in the side of the trunk? yep, your palm is dead, you just dont know yet, have a nice day" 

:DD (I try to laugh but actually I cry)

Tbh to my inexperienced eyes this palm looks being on the verge of irreversible collapse.  I would therefore use asap a strong insecticide (or a strong solution) like 4 ml of Confidor per 1 lt water. At least this is the curing formula people use in Israel. I would add also Lambda Cyalothrin in to the mix for more rapid results. After a week I would also apply a fungicide, such as Aliette, 3.5 gr per 1 lt water. For prevention 2 ml Confidor per 1 lt water, IF you can source this pesticide in EU. If you are sure it is a Paysandisia, better use in the mix Affirm instead of Lambda Cyalothrin.

[Merlyn]

@DanPalm I'd agree with @Phoenikakias, the heavily drooping leaves means it has been infected with the parasite for a while.  It's hard to know how much damage they have done.  Take my suggestions with a grain (or handful) of salt, as I haven't dealt with RPW or Paysandisia myself:

• Systemic insecticide such as Imadicloprid (Confidor or others) or Dinotefuran as a soil drench around the base of the trunk.  This can take a couple of weeks to spread through the palm tissue.  If the bugs have eaten through the water-distributing tissue (causing the droopy fronds) then it might not get everywhere.
• Crown drench trying to get it into the visible holes.  I'd use a contact insecticide like Acephate, Malathion, Lambda Cyhalothrin, Permethrin, Cypermethrin.  I'd also mix in some of the systemic into the crown drench to try to soak it into the upper tissues at the same time.
• Follow up with a fungicide to help prevent fungal rot infections.  Aliette and other aluminum tris like Fosetyl-Al are good, as are Thiophanate-Methyl and Etridiazole.  Mancozeb is a good crown fungicide, as are regular hydrogen peroxide and Daconil. 

As far as "not planting another in the same spot" pretty much the only disease that stays in the soil and readily spreads via roots is the fungus Ganoderma.  That's not your problem here, so if this one is killed by the bugs I'd just dig it all out and replant. 

[Tomas]

3 hours ago, Merlyn said:

@DanPalm I'd agree with @Phoenikakias, the heavily drooping leaves means it has been infected with the parasite for a while.  It's hard to know how much damage they have done.  Take my suggestions with a grain (or handful) of salt, as I haven't dealt with RPW or Paysandisia myself:

• Systemic insecticide such as Imadicloprid (Confidor or others) or Dinotefuran as a soil drench around the base of the trunk.  This can take a couple of weeks to spread through the palm tissue.  If the bugs have eaten through the water-distributing tissue (causing the droopy fronds) then it might not get everywhere.
• Crown drench trying to get it into the visible holes.  I'd use a contact insecticide like Acephate, Malathion, Lambda Cyhalothrin, Permethrin, Cypermethrin.  I'd also mix in some of the systemic into the crown drench to try to soak it into the upper tissues at the same time.
• Follow up with a fungicide to help prevent fungal rot infections.  Aliette and other aluminum tris like Fosetyl-Al are good, as are Thiophanate-Methyl and Etridiazole.  Mancozeb is a good crown fungicide, as are regular hydrogen peroxide and Daconil. 

As far as "not planting another in the same spot" pretty much the only disease that stays in the soil and readily spreads via roots is the fungus Ganoderma.  That's not your problem here, so if this one is killed by the bugs I'd just dig it all out and replant. 

I hate to be a killjoy, but almost none of these substances are still available, and in any case to purchase almost all insecticides you need a professional license here in Italy.
Furthermore, Paysandisia is much more resistant to insecticides than the weevil.
I don't have direct experience, but I read that in France the product against woodworms is used, injected directly into the tunnels dug by the larvae.

[Phoenikakias]

12 hours ago, Tomas said:

I hate to be a killjoy, but almost none of these substances are still available, and in any case to purchase almost all insecticides you need a professional license here in Italy.
Furthermore, Paysandisia is much more resistant to insecticides than the weevil.
I don't have direct experience, but I read that in France the product against woodworms is used, injected directly into the tunnels dug by the larvae.

It is xylophene, a substance used for the preservation of wooden objects. Just a solution created by necessitty. Affirm is very effective against the Paysandisia. Imidacloprid can be found in the black market. 

[DanPalm]

wow guys, thank you so much for all the replys!

for the insecticides @Tomas do you know what we can do in southern italy? what is still available or how do italians treat those infections? (the wise elderly arborists in my little village couldnt help so far)

 

BUUUUT I think there might be hope?

I did a deep dive into the palm and also sprayed it with neem oil (why not while at it)

I cut the leaves with the holes in them, check out the pictures, the tunnels dont go far and they dont reach the trunk!

 

could it be some kind of different insect? I found these old larvae close by on the ground, they are way smaller than RPW and Paysandisia.

I also saw the storm definitely had bent some of the stems so much they were folded, I could imagine that's what causes the drooping.

Maybe I am making things up in my mind because I dont wanna lose the palm?

again thanks so much for the help!

btw Even if its not the worst case, now that I know about RPW I definitely want to have insecticide prevention methods, but it seems like the EU has banned everything?!

 

 

[Tomas]

8 hours ago, Phoenikakias said:

It is xylophene, a substance used for the preservation of wooden objects. Just a solution created by necessitty. Affirm is very effective against the Paysandisia. Imidacloprid can be found in the black market. 

How do you apply Affirm? I can see it is defined as having excellent penetration and translaminar proprieties, but nowhere it is mentioned as systemic. Good for insects that feed on leaves, but how does it work for stem borers?

[Phoenikakias]

I spray, or rather pour pressurized the solution in the apex of each palm, just like imidacloprid. I made two applications last year and Paysandisia stopped flying around for the rest summer.

[Tomas]

6 hours ago, DanPalm said:

wow guys, thank you so much for all the replys!

for the insecticides @Tomas do you know what we can do in southern italy? what is still available or how do italians treat those infections? (the wise elderly arborists in my little village couldnt help so far)

 

BUUUUT I think there might be hope?

I did a deep dive into the palm and also sprayed it with neem oil (why not while at it)

I cut the leaves with the holes in them, check out the pictures, the tunnels dont go far and they dont reach the trunk!

 

could it be some kind of different insect? I found these old larvae close by on the ground, they are way smaller than RPW and Paysandisia.

I also saw the storm definitely had bent some of the stems so much they were folded, I could imagine that's what causes the drooping.

Maybe I am making things up in my mind because I dont wanna lose the palm?

again thanks so much for the help!

btw Even if its not the worst case, now that I know about RPW I definitely want to have insecticide prevention methods, but it seems like the EU has banned everything?!

 

 

Hi Dan,

your palm is Washingtonia robusta.

I am no expert on washingtonias, so this is just an oppinion, but the plant looks a bit stressed, the surroundings look very dry, but I know washingtonias normally do not need any watering. If it was me, I would try to give it some water directly and see if there is some change. I hope somebody cam comment on this.

The palm weevil doesn't like washingtonia robusta and it rarely attacks it, so it is probably the palm moth Paysandisia the trouble for your palm. the holes you see were made by the larvae munching inside the stem well before the leaves emerged. 

There is a lot of palm growers in Europe that have the same problem as you and the oppinion that the larvae are a lot more resistant to the various insecticides is not that rare. At the other side, the damage to most of the palms caused by Payasandisia is less lethal than the RPW, except for the European fan palm and Trachycarpus.

Your palm doesn't look so bad, and the new emerging leaves are still in good conditions.

 

[DanPalm]

*UPDATE*

Ok, I won't kill it until it dies! Let's keep believing! (and she's not dead yet, but doesnt look any better either)

I sprayed so much neem oil I smelled like it for 2 days  don't think it will do anything but lets see.

Our local Palm guy that I finally reached said that she's dead already (she is not rock-stable anymore  ), but he also thought it is the RPW (punteruolo rosso), but we also came to the conclusion we should just wait and see if she can recover.

-------------------------------------------

regarding the watering: she never got watered for 2 years before we moved in, she just grew slower (the house was empty, noone cared for the garden) when we moved in I watered the garden every evening, she kind of got passively watered because 2 surrounding plants received water and she certainly also got a sip. and I also did that this summer, so there was no change in the watering regime in the past 3 years

----------------------------------------

by now I have those two theories:

- its RPW that got home drunk and decided its time to try a washingtona robusta
or
- the storm I mentioned + the Paysandisia + a very hot and sudden start to summer that stressed her so much

----------------------------------

QUESTION:

what would you guys do against the paysandisia?

[Tomas]

What do you mean not rock stable? The root zone or the crown? 

You can mark the central New leaves to see if it still grows. 

As for what to do, the best thing would be to pour  water and insecticide in the root zone. I cannot help with where to find some imidacloprid that would be the best (I still have some stock for my palms). There is also acetamiprid, but it is very expensive 

[DanPalm]

Thank you for your efforts everyone, she is 90% dead now, just the spear leaves remain but they are also yellowing.

I will leave her be for now until she is 100% dead and when I cut er up I will share the pictures so we might be able to determine what caused it.

off topic:
I met one of my neighbours recently and he had a RPW in two of his palms (different variety) a few years back, those holes are HUGE, he saved one of them, the other was too far gone (her stump remains in his garden, and he showed me how it looked) he is flushing them every 20 days from the top with some insecticide, but he also couldnt tell what was the issue for my palm

We'll see, I'll update this post in ~2 weeks probably 🤞

[DanPalm]

Hey guys, I am back

I finally managed to bring myself to cutting it down, it almost fell over.

surprise surprise! IT WAS A Red Palm Weevil!

the whole palm is only earth inside, totally eaten up by them... I couldnt dig all of them out but I already found one just by tipping the palm over (it smells like perfect compost earth) and several "mothers" probably, shells of adult RPW in the earth, and shells of pupated and already hatched (and left) RPW.

its hollow inside..

What is weird, everyone is so convinced (in the forum but also here in italy) that the RPW doesnt attack the Washingtona Robusta, but apparently they have adapted here, probably because of the lack of other palms?

possibly I had 2 generations of RPW in there, considering it started dying at around Q2 of the year and the RPW grub's lifecycle is 1-3 months with pupate stage around 2-3 weeks

At least the grub tasted nice!
(jk :D)

[Merlyn]

Wow that's a lot of damage!  I'm sure that the palm was already dead by the time you spotted the holes in late June.  Hopefully you caught and killed all the grubs!

[Phoenikakias]

9 hours ago, DanPalm said:

What is weird, everyone is so convinced (in the forum but also here in italy) that the RPW doesnt attack the Washingtona Robusta, but apparently they have adapted here, probably because of the lack of other palms?

 

You must have overlooked my reply. Anyway neem oil for treatment of such pest is , sorry to say it, ridiculous. It is kinda like treating human cancer with herbs. In fact here some people with access have resorted back to Lannate for very severe infestation incidents.  As a general rule, the up to now holy grail for the salvage of the palms is frequent (monthly) treatment. Even if it does not turn 100% effective (total protection) any occuring infestation will be normaly considerably less severe and therefore the palms will have many more chances for a successful curative treatment.

[DanPalm]

yeah I was referring to the general conception of RPW = does not do washies

at the stage I spotted the damage it was already doomed anyway (we didnt plant the palm  ourselves and only get familiar with palms etc. as we go, we certainly had more pressing issues when we moved in than to read up on all possible pathogens for all the different plants in the garden :D)

 

I already notified the local officials and palmowners in hopes of spreading the word to prevent anyone else getting surprised by RPW eating their washingtona

Thanks for all the help guys, hope the next posts will be success stories (however we probably switch to Banana-Trees and inform ourselves on possible sicknesses of those beforehand :D)

[DanPalm]

On 9/1/2024 at 2:11 AM, Merlyn said:

Wow that's a lot of damage!  I'm sure that the palm was already dead by the time you spotted the holes in late June.  Hopefully you caught and killed all the grubs!

sadly it was the only living grub I found, must have been a late bloomer, but I found loads of empty cocoons and almost just as many dead RPW inside the palm (it seems like they didnt find the exit and died after "birth") or maybe they had huge reproduction parties inside the palm, who knows. One of the factors was that the vicinity of the palm got watered, possibly the inside was too wet for the bugs to get out and it certainly started rotting inside of the palm (the whole dirt was wet inside there but it didnt rain for weeks beforehand)

[Phoenikakias]

50 minutes ago, DanPalm said:

yeah I was referring to the general conception of RPW = does not do washies

at the stage I spotted the damage it was already doomed anyway (we didnt plant the palm  ourselves and only get familiar with palms etc. as we go, we certainly had more pressing issues when we moved in than to read up on all possible pathogens for all the different plants in the garden :D)

 

I already notified the local officials and palmowners in hopes of spreading the word to prevent anyone else getting surprised by RPW eating their washingtona

Thanks for all the help guys, hope the next posts will be success stories (however we probably switch to Banana-Trees and inform ourselves on possible sicknesses of those beforehand :D)

I read some where, that Paysandisia may attack also bananas and strelitzias. Also a kind of rodent may chew on same plants,  I suppose also the tje purpose of finding water inside the tissues during the drier months.

[aegean]

Washingtonians, especially filifera, have a natural substance in their leafs and petioles that makes these parts resistant to the RPW ( https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-entomological-research/article/abs/susceptibility-and-possible-resistance-mechanisms-in-the-palm-species-phoenix-dactylifera-chamaerops-humilis-and-washingtonia-filifera-against-rhynchophorus-ferrugineus-olivier-1790-coleoptera-curculionidae/28DE2228CED90CFBC56D75C92030343E ).  However their trunks seem to be vulnerable. Two of my Washingtonias had been infested in their trunks. I injected emamectin benzoate into the trunks and it seems to have worked. I used "Affirm". It is much less concentrated than "Revive" that is recommended for this purpose. So I injected the 10 fold amount. Revive is not available for retail buyers. You can only buy the whole injection service from Syngenta certified professionals.

I would really like to know where I can still get imidacloprid as it has been absolutely the most effective substance against RPW and Paysandisia for me.

[Phoenikakias]

50 minutes ago, aegean said:

Washingtonians, especially filifera, have a natural substance in their leafs and petioles that makes these parts resistant to the RPW ( https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-entomological-research/article/abs/susceptibility-and-possible-resistance-mechanisms-in-the-palm-species-phoenix-dactylifera-chamaerops-humilis-and-washingtonia-filifera-against-rhynchophorus-ferrugineus-olivier-1790-coleoptera-curculionidae/28DE2228CED90CFBC56D75C92030343E ).  However their trunks seem to be vulnerable. Two of my Washingtonias had been infested in their trunks. I injected emamectin benzoate into the trunks and it seems to have worked. I used "Affirm". It is much less concentrated than "Revive" that is recommended for this purpose. So I injected the 10 fold amount. Revive is not available for retail buyers. You can only buy the whole injection service from Syngenta certified professionals.

I would really like to know where I can still get imidacloprid as it has been absolutely the most effective substance against RPW and Paysandisia for me.

Make a weekend trip to Srbja and buy there any quantity you need! Perhaps you will be able to find it also in NM and Kossovo. Most probably not under the brand name Confidor but rather as Sharimida.