Windmill palm fronds curling and opening early

[Dpalms]

Hello all. This is my first post on PT. I live in Albuquerque and am an avid palm lover. I have two mature windmills in my backyard by my pool. They both face south and were planted in April of 2022. This is the first year that one of them is looking frail and much slower growing than the palm to its east.  The spears are much smaller in size when they emerge and they are opening up early as you can see from the photo. The tips are very brown and curled up (very crunchy like).  The center spear is not pulling which is a good sign but need some advice if this is an underwatering issue? Nematodes?  Just yesterday I dug down and pulled some of the rock away from the trunk and checked for whitish looking roots.  It has been near 100 degrees and lows in the mid 60’s at night. I have been watering each of the palms twice a week with a garden hose for 5-10 min per soak.  I use Carl Pool palm food twice per year.  I know they are planted too close to the cinder block wall.  It looks butchered but I’ve been good about waiting until the fronds are almost brown before removing. Thanks for any advice!

And here is how they looked last summer. 
 

 

[jwitt]

I say more water. That said, my established Trachy has roots out over six foot away from the trunk.  It gets it water from my lawn which is watered  25-30 minutes near daily this time of year. 

Let that dribble for a day or two, nonstop. 

Weekly.

My suggestion 

[Dpalms]

Thank you for your reply Jim. I’ll give that a try!  I have always watered right near the trunk but good to know it is probably absorbing water from a further area. 

[jwitt]

@Dpalms Usually takes about 3 full seasons for a transplanted palm to fully acclimate.  That said, they "almost" stop growing now til September.  But roots will continue.  I was surprised how far my roots had spread.  Just keep it well watered during our growing season. 

Nice palms!

Trachy growing season(leaf/spear production) in my yard is about late March til June, then September til early November.  

The leaves will be a bit more compact here(due to our sun).   But leaves should hold for multiple years(2+), unless we get whacked.

[Dpalms]

That’s really good info Jim.

Do you ever use any sea kelp or fish fertilizer in addition to granular fertilizer?

[jwitt]

I don't fertilize. 

I did in the past and actually killed palms by applying too late in the season. They were growing when our "cold" hit. 

I do put spent coffee grounds at the base of my trachy. That's it. 

In fact I do not even fertilize my lawn anymore because my dog would most likely eat the pellets. 

I don't advise against fertilizer, I just don't use it. 

I do use fish emulsion on some vegetables and such.

And a side note, fish emulsion will put red streaks on my filifera.  I do not fertilize them with it because of that(acidity?).  Fish emulsion would probably be great for a Trachy tho.

I do somewhat amend my soil overtime.  I have been known to add kitty litter(clean) to my sand, and use grass/leaf mulch. 

 

 

[SailorBold]

I agree with what jwitt has stated.. I don't have any trachies yet but I'd also suspect reflected heat can be part of the issue..and likely the lye from being near the cinder block base and pool decking..perhaps the roots are getting some of that as they grow beneath the deck. That lye can have a ph over 10..  not all plants are affected by it..

It's prolly a combo of several things....

With that stated it's difficult to change soil ph in our area.. 

I'd suggest adding a rain barrel if possible.. Strictly diverting rainwater to those trees.. I'd change to acid loving fertilizer and perhaps some ironite.. which has Sulphur in it...should help..

[Dpalms]

Thank you both for your help! It is greatly appreciated and will keep you posted. 

[Las Palmas Norte]

I had that same thing happen with a Windmill some years ago. Over the course of 3 years it died. I still can't find an explanation. It's neighbor 10' away was unscathed. I hope yours comes around.

[SailorBold]

48 minutes ago, Dpalms said:

Thank you both for your help! It is greatly appreciated and will keep you posted. 

Np..  fyi ill use miracle grow camelia rhododendron fertilizer... and ironite..regularly any other fertilizer occasionally.. just as long as the primary is made for acid loving plants.. this will at least part of the time bring the ph down so the palm can uptake the nutrients... If I remember correct our water out of the tap is about 7.8-8.2 as well... so.. on top of that soil etc etc.. is alkaline..  I think one of the reasons jwitts trachy looks so good.. is the frequent water and with the grass there is a biological process buffering the high pH..

[SailorBold]

Just to add a little further.. adding organic matter ammendment is great.. but here on the Westside and likely where you are..you wouldn't be able to dig a hole big enough where roots would just grow out of it any way.. where I'm at its just sand..so I dont ammend.. think of it as the water as the vehicle to carry the nutrients they need..and ph (at least temporarily/momentarily)

I'm going to do an experiment  just as a test to try and grow gardenias using rainwater and ac condensate.. when I do it.. I'll post on this thread..

[jwitt]

They handle reflected sun ok in our area once acclimated

[SeanK]

@jwitt always gives good advice out your way.

Is there a reason those look hurricane cut? One thing I don't understand is why folks with scorching hot summers plant in front of walls. Hopefully it faces north. Definitely more water.

Also, grab some soil about 30" away and dissolve in distilled water. Then check the pH. 

[SailorBold]

8 hours ago, SeanK said:

@jwitt always gives good advice out your way.

Is there a reason those look hurricane cut? One thing I don't understand is why folks with scorching hot summers plant in front of walls. Hopefully it faces north. Definitely more water.

Also, grab some soil about 30" away and dissolve in distilled water. Then check the pH. 

I think what we are seeing is nitrogen deficiency.. and others for reasons stated above..and seen in the graphic..would also explain premature opening of fronds... plants can take alot of heat but even jwitts photo..that palm is nutrient starved..and definitely not watered enough. I've seen trachies planted on north sides and winter shade..they do better.. despite the thinking they wouldn't survive on that locale..(perhaps protection a couple times in winter)... but these wouldn't lose as much water due to lower transportation rate..and better replacement of.

[SailorBold]

Heres a trachy on a blazing west wall.. right under canale..  good spot... and here's a north facing trachy near house with roof run-off...also good spot..

[SailorBold]

This all might sound bad.. but if fertilized correctly and not to extremes you can give the trees basically every nutrient they need here..

[SailorBold]

Ok.. so decided to get this experiment going.. Picked up a cheap Gardenia from the big box last night and planted it today..  it may be a plant murder but want to see if it can be done. This area on my side yard is not landscaped..but there is a roof canale that drains onto the aluminum patio cover and into the gutter and downspout. This is where I plan to add my 300 gallon ibc tote.  additionally off that canale is where my ac condensate is pumped off as well...so periodically the ac will pump the condensate out and onto the patio cover.. it's pretty constant but moreso during "humid" periods..   in the winter the furnace does the same thing and generates constant water.  This area when finished if it's feasible I'm going to try and plant some gardenias and a tree fern in the shade and perhaps some shade loving plants I'd be unable to grow otherwise due to moisture and or ph requirements..(maybe azalias?) and sun protection... 

For right now I have a HD bucket with drilled holes aimed toward the gardenia which will serve as the catchment for the time being...  I amended the soil..so all direct contact of the gardenias roots will not be shocked by the alkaline soil..and watered it in with rainwater collected from my other tanks..  I'm never going to water this plant with tap water.. and just see what happens as is..

[jwitt]

@SailorBold good luck on the gardenia.  Your water from your furnace(assuming nat gas/ultra high efficiency) will be acidic.  Your a/c water at worst most likely will be neutral. 

A surprising choice for true shade would be fatsia japonica.  I have had it survive 2011, and entire block of years w/o any supplemental water.  If you want a big green leaf  thru ought winter kind of thing. 

I did water this one in early June. So it has been watered this year. Believe it or not. 

 

[jwitt]

Going back to the OP's @Dpalms issues and some discussion about nutrient deficiency, the OP stated the palm(s) had been fertilized. So I personally am not totally sold on this argument. Although it definitely could be a part. 

That said, @SailorBold pics with the beautiful desert trachies,  one can see a lawn setting very close.  

So my personal experience with this palm, it may(and probably does) prefer things toward the acidic side, but is very tolerant of alkaline conditions, but with a caveat, and that would be a consistent source of moisture.  

I also believe this is why they flourish in Atlanta as opposed to a bit drier DFW(comparing naturally irrigated specimens).  

Just my thoughts. 

[SailorBold]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

@SailorBold good luck on the gardenia.  Your water from your furnace(assuming nat gas/ultra high efficiency) will be acidic.  Your a/c water at worst most likely will be neutral. 

A surprising choice for true shade would be fatsia japonica.  I have had it survive 2011, and entire block of years w/o any supplemental water.  If you want a big green leaf  thru ought winter kind of thing. 

I did water this one in early June. So it has been watered this year. Believe it or not. 

 

Yeah we will see.. just gonna watch how it does.. perhaps at least neutral water will pull it through? I've killed prolly 10 of these plants...the furnace is Nat gas..ultra efficient..not really sure how it generates so much water tbh.. moreso than the ac unit..

Yup that fatsia is a winner.. I've never seen them anywhere around here..(they should plant those at the zoo)... Nice plant you have...definitely want one of those as well..

[SailorBold]

Hey Jwitt.. how's your giant Mediterranean doing??

[Dpalms]

On 7/9/2024 at 11:01 AM, SeanK said:

@jwitt always gives good advice out your way.

Is there a reason those look hurricane cut? One thing I don't understand is why folks with scorching hot summers plant in front of walls. Hopefully it faces north. Definitely more water.

Also, grab some soil about 30" away and dissolve in distilled water. Then check the pH. 

It faces south and is blazing hot. Lack of inexperience when I planted it a while ago. 
I’ll check the soil pH like you mentioned and post results back here in a few days. 

[jwitt]

4 hours ago, SailorBold said:

Hey Jwitt.. how's your giant Mediterranean doing??

I wish it would set seed. Just blooms. 

Yesterday's pic

[Dpalms]

On 7/9/2024 at 8:00 PM, SailorBold said:

I think what we are seeing is nitrogen deficiency.. and others for reasons stated above..and seen in the graphic..would also explain premature opening of fronds... plants can take alot of heat but even jwitts photo..that palm is nutrient starved..and definitely not watered enough. I've seen trachies planted on north sides and winter shade..they do better.. despite the thinking they wouldn't survive on that locale..(perhaps protection a couple times in winter)... but these wouldn't lose as much water due to lower transportation rate..and better replacement of.

Thanks Jimmy.  I’ll give it a boost of nitrogen and been giving it a lot of water to see if I can help it along during this heat. 

[Dpalms]

3 minutes ago, jwitt said:

I wish it would set seed. Just blooms. 

Yesterday's pic

Lookin really good! 

[jwitt]

1 minute ago, Dpalms said:

Lookin really good! 

Thanks.

It is a unprotected 2/2011 survivor(-10f) and zero in 12/2011.  It was on the north side of my house at that time! Due to the somewhat slow growth after those events, it now resides on my Southside.  

I would recommend med for Southside reflected in our climate. 

[Dpalms]

It’s hard to tell but is that a single or multi trunk?

[SeanK]

4 hours ago, jwitt said:

I wish it would set seed. Just blooms. 

Yesterday's pic

Damn, that's amazing. How tall?

[RFun]

10 hours ago, jwitt said:

Thanks.

It is a unprotected 2/2011 survivor(-10f) and zero in 12/2011.  It was on the north side of my house at that time! Due to the somewhat slow growth after those events, it now resides on my Southside.  

I would recommend med for Southside reflected in our climate. 

Yeah, the ones with the hardy genetics can take some short, cold snaps, no doubt.  People can be confused because they may have some that probably came from North Florida.

[RFun]

Just now, RFun said:

Yeah, the ones with the hardy genetics can take some short, cold snaps, no doubt.  People can be confused because they may have some that probably came from North Florida.

So anyway, it would be a helpful guide in knowing where the palms are originating from so you have the general background data.  You bring a palm up from Florida and it experiences a nasty cold snap it's first year in the ground in a more northern location----it may not be coming back.

[jwitt]

9 hours ago, Dpalms said:

It’s hard to tell but is that a single or multi trunk?

Multi

Tallest trunk almost 4'

[jwitt]

5 hours ago, SeanK said:

Damn, that's amazing. How tall?

About 7'

[jwitt]

18 minutes ago, RFun said:

Yeah, the ones with the hardy genetics can take some short, cold snaps, no doubt.  People can be confused because they may have some that probably came from North Florida.

My plant is seed sourced out of Las Cruces. 

Not sure I would call this event "short" with 3 consecutive nights of near zero or below. 

And wet

 

 

[jwitt]

This is shorter duration ten months later. 

[jwitt]

12 hours ago, Dpalms said:

Thanks Jimmy.  I’ll give it a boost of nitrogen and been giving it a lot of water to see if I can help it along during this heat. 

Fish emulsion is great for nitrogen. It also is fast(not slow release, and mild enough not to burn.

Some fertilizers(most granular) are slow release. If used now and a 3-6 month release may put one into what I consider the danger zone.  Meaning October is less than 3 months away, and I would not want a nitrogen boost at that time. 

Often overlooked is lawn winterizer.  Great for palm roots over the winter, and the nitrogen is not released til spring(slow release), right when you want it.  I have applied in the past in November with great results. Don't use now! It would be a mid to late fall application.

Be sure to check labels. 

Personally, I cutoff, or at least dial water way back about balloon fiesta time.  

I believe this setup helps with our cold, which will happen again.  I also believe an actively growing palm is less "hardy" as opposed to a somewhat dormant(drought induced is a tool here) and explains some of the lethality differences seen here as opposed to say central/north Texas. 

 

 

 

[RFun]

7 hours ago, jwitt said:

My plant is seed sourced out of Las Cruces. 

Not sure I would call this event "short" with 3 consecutive nights of near zero or below. 

And wet

 

 

Well, we'll call it short enough for these hardy beasts.

[SailorBold]

On 7/11/2024 at 11:31 AM, SailorBold said:

Ok.. so decided to get this experiment going.. Picked up a cheap Gardenia from the big box last night and planted it today..  it may be a plant murder but want to see if it can be done. This area on my side yard is not landscaped..but there is a roof canale that drains onto the aluminum patio cover and into the gutter and downspout. This is where I plan to add my 300 gallon ibc tote.  additionally off that canale is where my ac condensate is pumped off as well...so periodically the ac will pump the condensate out and onto the patio cover.. it's pretty constant but moreso during "humid" periods..   in the winter the furnace does the same thing and generates constant water.  This area when finished if it's feasible I'm going to try and plant some gardenias and a tree fern in the shade and perhaps some shade loving plants I'd be unable to grow otherwise due to moisture and or ph requirements..(maybe azalias?) and sun protection... 

For right now I have a HD bucket with drilled holes aimed toward the gardenia which will serve as the catchment for the time being...  I amended the soil..so all direct contact of the gardenias roots will not be shocked by the alkaline soil..and watered it in with rainwater collected from my other tanks..  I'm never going to water this plant with tap water.. and just see what happens as is..

Heres an update if interested..  haven't watered the gardenia at all...  some of the leaves burnt in the sun from transplanting.. I think..but it's growing back..

It's struggling a bit.. but was trampled by stucco contractors also.

I'm not sure they will take the cold weather here..ie length of overnight freezes may be a determination factor if they can make it or not..

[SailorBold]

Came across these yesterday..  cool!

[jwitt]

@SailorBoldthose new gardenia leaves look promising!

That's a lot of windmills! Nice. Hope they do well(watered enough). 

[Dpalms]

I wanted to give an update on this windmill. It spear pulled the other day.  I then decided to trunk cut about 7” off the top and there seems to be some live/white tissue. I doused it in copper fungicide and now will wait to see if any new growth pushes up.