RPS Jubaea chilensis x Butia odorata F2 Blue Jubaea

[Joe NC]

A few years ago I bought, "Jubaea chilensis x Butia odorata F2  Blue Jubaea" seeds from RPS. About a year after I gave up on thinking I'd have any germinate, I had some come up. They were a little temperamental as seedlings, but now I have one in a 3gal pot.  Does it look pretty much indistinguishable from a straight butia at this size? Maybe? Does it match the photo on RPS? Sort of.  Am I optimistic that it will be a nice palm when it puts on some size? Sure!

[PalmatierMeg]

I have no idea but I love that mint green color. Sure I can't grow one in my swelter.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

I can see that it does not look like a typical Butia, if there is such a thing on the open market. The leaves do not look like they have a lot of recurve compared to most Butia and the whole look is more open and not compact. There is also a little color in the petiole that is only in a few Butia in the general market (around here). The leaf color, like Meg noticed, is not typical.  I do not see a lot of petiole spines. More pics at other angles might show more or different conclusions.  Also I have BXJ F1 and it is very similar. Having said all that hybrids are all over the map, with their characteristics, and they can change as they grow and so can a lot of market available Butia,  but I'm pretty sure you got the real deal. 

[Joe NC]

On 7/20/2024 at 11:47 AM, PalmatierMeg said:

I have no idea but I love that mint green color. Sure I can't grow one in my swelter.

After reading your comment and a quick Googleing... today I learned that even pure "pindo" palms don't like south Florida! So I guess even a relatively low % jub hybrid would probably not be happy.

4 hours ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

pretty sure you got the real deal. 

I didn't think that RPS sold me typical butia seed (they were reasonably bigger than what i have seen for a pindo) but more just wondering out loud if the effort to aquire the seed and struggle with keeping them happy when tiny was worth it. Now that it is a bit bigger happier and picking up speed, I'm good with it.  It does have some recurve, but is relatively stretched out and open.  Especially as it is growing in nearly full sun. 

[Harry’s Palms]

I have a Blue Oderata and it did not look like that when it was young. Yours is more loose , not as tightly held , as @Jeff zone 8 N.C. said. Mine didn’t get the blue coloring until it was a bit larger than yours , it was a darker green. Now it is very silver / blue . Yours will be interesting as it gets big. At about that size is when they start to gain speed . Harry

[Fusca]

On 7/20/2024 at 10:33 AM, Joe NC said:

A few years ago I bought, "Jubaea chilensis x Butia odorata F2  Blue Jubaea" seeds from RPS. About a year after I gave up on thinking I'd have any germinate, I had some come up. They were a little temperamental as seedlings, but now I have one in a 3gal pot.  Does it look pretty much indistinguishable from a straight butia at this size? Maybe? Does it match the photo on RPS? Sort of.  Am I optimistic that it will be a nice palm when it puts on some size? Sure!

How many germinations did you get?  I'm curious about the variation between seedlings.  From what I understand about F2 seedlings about half will resemble the parent palm, 1/4 will resemble Jubaea and 1/4 will resemble Butia.  I had an F2 BxJ that turned out to be Butia with no hybrid vigor.  I think you'll get at least one cool palm out of the group!

[Joe NC]

5 hours ago, Fusca said:

How many germinations did you get?  I'm curious about the variation between seedlings.  From what I understand about F2 seedlings about half will resemble the parent palm, 1/4 will resemble Jubaea and 1/4 will resemble Butia.  I had an F2 BxJ that turned out to be Butia with no hybrid vigor.  I think you'll get at least one cool palm out of the group!

So I had 3 seedlings from that small pack of seeds.  One was eaten to the roots by a giant grasshopper, and the other I gave away.  The one I gave away was apparently kind of fussy and didn't make it.

I was just told that JXB are not self fertile, so it needed to be back crossed with a non hybrid parent.  If this is an F2, it would be no more than 25%  jubaea, assuming back cross with a butia.

Judging from it's looks, it was back crossed with a butia.

I'm ok with this, as even the F3 (JxB)xB)xB) or greater hybrids are nice enough and look like a fat beefy butia.

Worst case, it's a plain old butia, and I'm ok with that too.

[Joe NC]

11 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

I have a Blue Oderata and it did not look like that when it was young. Yours is more loose , not as tightly held , as @Jeff zone 8 N.C. said. Mine didn’t get the blue coloring until it was a bit larger than yours , it was a darker green. Now it is very silver / blue . Yours will be interesting as it gets big. At about that size is when they start to gain speed . Harry

I had a beautiful blue butia that I scored out of a sea of normal pindos in blue pots lined up in a home depot parking lot.  I saw it while driving by, and knew I must have it.  I was dumb and didn't protect it enough before the awful cold snap in 2018 that took out 3/4 of my "pindos".  I am still mad at myself for loosing that palm, so hopefully this one gets some more color.

RIP you beautiful bastard

[Harry’s Palms]

That already has quite a nice color . Mine was still green at that age . That will be very blue as it ages. Harry

[Joe NC]

12 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

That already has quite a nice color . Mine was still green at that age . That will be very blue as it ages. Harry

Sorry, I was confusing.  Pic of the awesome one above is the one that died. 💀

[Harry’s Palms]

I see now the RIP below the pic. Sorry for your loss. Harry

[swolf]

That sure had a vivid and beautiful color Joe!  An unusual amount of color for a palm that small too.  Sometimes Phil at Junglemusic gets in some super-blue butia, and he’s willing to ship all over the country.  
 

Of course adult form is just as important as color… I see some Butias around town with remarkable silver/blue color but ‘meh’ in form.  I’ve been liking one of the JxB F1 I got years ago from Patrick since it increasingly shows top and bottom leaf glaucousness with nice form and wing-span.  Still an immature palm but seems to be catching a growth spurt:

[Scott W]

On 7/25/2024 at 4:40 PM, Joe NC said:

I was just told that JXB are not self fertile, so it needed to be back crossed with a non hybrid parent.  If this is an F2, it would be no more than 25%  jubaea, assuming back cross with a butia.

Curious what is your source of this info, as I know of one Jubaea x Butia that is producing fertile seed and several others that are producing seed with no pure Butia nearby.

Below pics are recently harvested fruit and seeds from Jubaea x butia hybrids produced by Patrick Schaefer. 

Jubaea x butia seed compared to pure Butia seeds

[Joe NC]

11 hours ago, Scott W said:

Curious what is your source of this info

Sorry, I was actually told bxj are not self fertile. 

Not sure if that makes a difference.  Regarding jxb

Also after seeing my butia absolutely covered in pollinators, I wouldn't be surprised if they could carry butia pollen for miles.

[Scott W]

7 hours ago, Joe NC said:

Sorry, I was actually told bxj are not self fertile. 

Not sure if that makes a difference.  Regarding jxb

Also after seeing my butia absolutely covered in pollinators, I wouldn't be surprised if they could carry butia pollen for miles.

No worries,  I was really just wondering the source (guess I'll have to dig around).

I agree thought that pollinators can travel miles and miles, so it's possible, but the odds still favor self pollination over cross pollination.  Otherwise one would expect to see more natural hybridization, especially in areas that are heavily planted with say Queens and Pindos.

[Fusca]

7 hours ago, Joe NC said:

Sorry, I was actually told bxj are not self fertile. 

Not sure if that makes a difference.  Regarding jxb

Texas Cold Hardy Palms had BxJ F2 seedlings for sale several years ago and that's where mine came from.  I can't guarantee that they weren't back crossed with Butia but Joseph collected the seeds from a BxJ F1 hybrid from a customer in Louisiana.  He was pretty sure that they weren't back crossed and I've read on this site a couple of times over the years that BxJ do produce viable seeds for what that's worth.  Haven't heard the same regarding JxB though.

[swolf]

Personally I don’t think dogmatic statements about fertility hold true in every case but I did find an old thread where experienced growers shared their conclusions.   Here’s a Sept. 2008 post from Merrill Wilcox.  In same thread Dick Douglas shared that his BxJ F1 was self-sterile (zero seed set when Patrick attempted) but readily responded to other compatible pollens.

”Fellow palm lovers:

XButyagrus shows fertility so rarely one shouldn't expect to find fertile plants except in exceedingly small numbers. In my experience, only about 3 have turned up. If XButyagrus were not so sterile, we'd have its queen backcross in profusion. They are plumose, but much more densely foliaged than F1 XButyagrus, or OTOH queen itself, making them a big improvement over XButyagrus F1. Here is a photo of the F1, with Charlie Rauleron, its proud Papa:

http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-onlin...rticulture5.htm

In JXB hybrids, it is only the ([JXB]XB)XB generation that begins to be self-fertile.

Hi, Tala: My apologies, but I don't remember distributing seeds so recently. You might post a photo when it grows up a little.

Best Wishes,

merrill”