Palm ID?

[NC_Palms]

Anyone know what this is? I feel like I should but I have no idea lol 

 

[John2468]

Howea Fostriana maybe?

[idontknowhatnametuse]

Mule palm

[Jim in Los Altos]

3 minutes ago, John2468 said:

Howea Fostriana maybe?

John, definitely not a Howea. It’s got Syagrus in it and it may be a hybrid. 

[JLM]

Mule palm. It’s got the twisted fronds of a Butia and deep green of a queen. Also super skinny trunk like a queen but leaf bases more likened to a Butia. Definitely a nice palm there, just wish it wasn’t over trimmed.

[MJSanDiego]

@JLM this is what I cane up with researching Mule because I thought at first look it was not a Mule. Is this info inaccurate?

[JLM]

1 minute ago, MJSanDiego said:

@JLM this is what I cane up with researching Mule because I thought at first look it was not a Mule. Is this info inaccurate?

Not all mule palms are the same. They are hybrids, so not all mules will fit into the average description. But, if you think it’s not a mule, I’m curious to hear what else it could be.

[MJSanDiego]

Just now, JLM said:

Not all mule palms are the same. They are hybrids, so not all mules will fit into the average description. But, if you think it’s not a mule, I’m curious to hear what else it could be.

I actually have no idea what it could be other than I believe it does not look like a Mule palm based on the trunk and the fronds. I think its some other hybrid with Syagrus. I really wish I knew as it's pretty!! 😍

[PalmatierMeg]

Mule palm in a SC winter? Maybe. Syagrus sp in a SC winter? I don't think so. I believe cold hardiness in the Syagrus genus is vastly overrated.

[NC_Palms]

6 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Mule palm in a SC winter? Maybe. Syagrus sp in a SC winter? I don't think so. I believe cold hardiness in the Syagrus genus is vastly overrated.

Mules are now being planted in coastal NC. And syagrus is becoming more and more common in the SC lowcountry, with a good amount on Hilton Head and in nearby Savannah 

 

But the palm in question isn’t in the Carolina’s but in New Smyrna Beach

[NC_Palms]

1 hour ago, JLM said:

Mule palm. It’s got the twisted fronds of a Butia and deep green of a queen. Also super skinny trunk like a queen but leaf bases more likened to a Butia. Definitely a nice palm there, just wish it wasn’t over trimmed.

This is what I was kinda thinking. The fronds just scream butia to me, but I never saw a mule with such a skinny trunk and this tall before  

[MJSanDiego]

54 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Mule palm in a SC winter? Maybe. Syagrus sp in a SC winter? I don't think so. I believe cold hardiness in the Syagrus genus is vastly overrated.

I totally agree. 17 years ago Home Depot had 30F+ (Zone 10) on the info tags for Syragus Romanzoffiana and that is correct IMO. They all died at 27 degrees for me back then. Today the info tags at Home Depot show zone 9 (20 to 30F).  That's a pretty suspicious change for the same non hybrid Syragus Romanzoffiana!!

[Jim in Los Altos]

4 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

I totally agree. 17 years ago Home Depot had 30F+ (Zone 10) on the info tags for Syragus Romanzoffiana and that is correct IMO. They all died at 27 degrees for me back then. Today the info tags at Home Depot show zone 9 (20 to 30F).  That's a pretty suspicious change for the same non hybrid Syragus Romanzoffiana!!

During the catastrophic freeze of 1990 in CA, many adult queen palms survived temperatures down to 20°F and some below that temperature. 20s continued a few more nights with daytime highs in the 30s! That was the all time worst freeze here. The scarring of the trunks of those palms is very evident today. The surviving Queen palms were initially defoliated and needed a full summer to recuperate.  

[DoomsDave]

9 minutes ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

During the catastrophic freeze of 1990 in CA, many adult queen palms survived temperatures down to 20°F and some below that temperature. 20s continued a few more nights with daytime highs in the 30s! That was the all time worst freeze here. The scarring of the trunks of those palms is very evident today. The surviving Queen palms were initially defoliated and needed a full summer to recuperate.  

Ohhhh yeah that 1990 freeze!

I’d just moved into my rented house up the hill from UCR and I was tired, rolled out on the screened in patio. 
 

I think we hit about 17 degrees at UCR; oleanders were frozen.

[Fusca]

Experienced similar conditions to what@Jim in Los Altos referenced here in Texas with a similar result.  Seems like the info tags at big box stores are usually pretty inaccurate.  I've seen tags say "not hardy below 30°F" on Ravenea rivularis and orange trees before.

[D Palm]

Mule, the campground near me has planted a ton. All have Butia thick trunks but the fronds vary widely which effects the trimmed boots. I really enjoy looking at the hybrid palms when visiting.

[PalmatierMeg]

13 hours ago, NC_Palms said:

Mules are now being planted in coastal NC. And syagrus is becoming more and more common in the SC lowcountry, with a good amount on Hilton Head and in nearby Savannah 

 

But the palm in question isn’t in the Carolina’s but in New Smyrna Beach

Ah, that’s why it looks so good - 250 miles further south makes a difference. All those Syagrus in SC/NC are short timers waiting for Armageddon. People can plant all the queens they want but they can’t stop an NAO or Siberian Express from nuking them into oblivion. Syagrus’ cold hardiness is vastly overrated.

[Darold Petty]

12 hours ago, Fusca said:

.  Seems like the info tags at big box stores are usually pretty inaccurate. .

The 'blue' big box store here in SF sells Hyophorbe,  Lantania,  and Wodyetia.

  Apparently the clueless customers will buy any pretty thing.    

[MJSanDiego]

5 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Ah, that’s why it looks so good - 250 miles further south makes a difference. All those Syagrus in SC/NC are short timers waiting for Armageddon. People can plant all the queens they want but they can’t stop an NAO or Siberian Express from nuking them into oblivion. Syagrus’ cold hardiness is vastly overrated.

Agree again. I think we can all also agree based on what @Jim in Los Altos stated that some healthy well established Queen palms can handle down to 20F or under with severe damage while others perish. But I think the whole point of the Zone is to inform you where you can successfully grow a healthy decades long plant without any risk of cosmetic cold damage, stunted growth, severe damage or death. The zone is further supported based on where they grow natively. Therefore, Syragus Romanzoffiana is a zone 10 palm (30F+)

[JLM]

40 minutes ago, MJSanDiego said:

Agree again. I think we can all also agree based on what @Jim in Los Altos stated that some healthy well established Queen palms can handle down to 20F or under with severe damage while others perish. But I think the whole point of the Zone is to inform you where you can successfully grow a healthy decades long plant without any risk of cosmetic cold damage, stunted growth, severe damage or death. The zone is further supported based on where they grow natively. Therefore, Syragus Romanzoffiana is a zone 10 palm (30F+)

Yea, its realistically a zone 10 palm as a seedling. As a mature palm? Solidly 9a.

[NC_Palms]

49 minutes ago, MJSanDiego said:

Agree again. I think we can all also agree based on what @Jim in Los Altos stated that some healthy well established Queen palms can handle down to 20F or under with severe damage while others perish. But I think the whole point of the Zone is to inform you where you can successfully grow a healthy decades long plant without any risk of cosmetic cold damage, stunted growth, severe damage or death. The zone is further supported based on where they grow natively. Therefore, Syragus Romanzoffiana is a zone 10 palm (30F+)

I wonder how I was able to get a young queen to survive unprotected in NC for several years that has seen below 18 numerous time. Either it’s a hella good microclimate (right against a brick wall) or a hybrid of some sorts? I’m trusting it’s not a hybrid bit just a basic palm I bought at home depot. 

 

Pic is from April of a few years back. I moved from this property so I have no idea if it’s still alive, but since it hasn’t dropped any colder than what it previous seen, It very well might be 

[NC_Palms]

 

Update: I never protected this palm at all, I thought I was but never did. Just a brick wall against the world 

[SeanK]

7 minutes ago, JLM said:

Yea, its realistically a zone 10 palm as a seedling. As a mature palm? Solidly 9a.

I'd say marginal in z9b. Going to see some leaf burn in a cold, humid winter. A frosty 22° with 17 hours below freezing? Smart money says total defoliation at least.

[SeanK]

6 minutes ago, NC_Palms said:

I wonder how I was able to get a young queen to survive unprotected in NC for several years that has seen below 18 numerous time. Either it’s a hella good microclimate (right against a brick wall) or a hybrid of some sorts? I’m trusting it’s not a hybrid bit just a basic palm I bought at home depot. 

 

Pic is from April of a few years back. I moved from this property so I have no idea if it’s still alive, but since it hasn’t dropped any colder than what it previous seen, It very well might be 

Put a thermometer 1-ft away from your east-facing wall. Put another 10-ft away from the same wall. What is the difference?

[JLM]

1 minute ago, SeanK said:

I'd say marginal in z9b. Going to see some leaf burn in a cold, humid winter. A frosty 22° with 17 hours below freezing? Smart money says total defoliation at least.

We have different definitions here

If a palm dies at a certain temperature, thats the zone number i go with. So what if it gets burned, itll grow back if you give plenty of water and fertilizer. I know theres more factors than this, but this is the easiest way to think about it for myself. In the event of temperatures dropping 5 degrees within range of death, its likely getting some form of protection from me anyways.

For queens specifically, i know they can survive as low as 19F, but if the temperature is forecast to go below 22F im likely doing a trunk wrap. The fronds themselves are too big to protect, so i dont even worry about those. If they go, oh well, theyll do exactly what theyre doing now: growing back

[SeanK]

Just now, JLM said:

We have different definitions here

If a palm dies at a certain temperature, thats the zone number i go with. So what if it gets burned, itll grow back if you give plenty of water and fertilizer. I know theres more factors than this, but this is the easiest way to think about it for myself. In the event of temperatures dropping 5 degrees within range of death, its likely getting some form of protection from me anyways.

For queens specifically, i know they can survive as low as 19F, but if the temperature is forecast to go below 22F im likely doing a trunk wrap. The fronds themselves are too big to protect, so i dont even worry about those. If they go, oh well, theyll do exactly what theyre doing now: growing back

A nursery or landscaper looks at the zone statistics. He/She knows that if a plant will be replaced for free, then the plant is rated approx one-half zone before visible damage occurs.

That's why Queens were rated for z10a. Some damage begins in the upper 20s.

[MJSanDiego]

3 minutes ago, SeanK said:

A nursery or landscaper looks at the zone statistics. He/She knows that if a plant will be replaced for free, then the plant is rated approx one-half zone before visible damage occurs.

That's why Queens were rated for z10a. Some damage begins in the upper 20s.

@SeanK is correct in both of his posts. Again, if you truly want a NO FUSS NO WORRY decades long healthy growing specimen of all it can be with never a hint of even cosmetic damage, it's a zone 10 palm. But if you push the zones you are not planting the species in its natural habitat and then anything can happen even death when you get those pesky new record low temps once a decade

[SeanK]

2 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

@SeanK is correct in both of his posts. Again, if you truly want a NO FUSS NO WORRY decades long healthy growing specimen of all it can be with never a hint of even cosmetic damage, it's a zone 10 palm. But if you push the zones you are not planting the species in its natural habitat and then anything can happen even death when you get those pesky new record low temps once a decade

If I lived in z9b, I would grow Queens. I would accept that I would see foliar damage some winters, but I could mitigate it with a high canopy. 

I would grow W.robusta in z8b, because it recovers a full crown every year.

[Axel Amsterdam]

This similar butyagrus grows in the south of France

[Axel Amsterdam]

Better more recent picture (by Gimli)

[MJSanDiego]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

If I lived in z9b, I would grow Queens. I would accept that I would see foliar damage some winters, but I could mitigate it with a high canopy. 

I would grow W.robusta in z8b, because it recovers a full crown every year.

Agree on the Queens.  As far as Robusta, just for me personally, I would limit to zone 9b because I could not handle the crispy brown potato chip canopy every year at 22 degrees or under.  So, at that time, I switched to Filifera.  Whie not my favorite palm by far, it can easily tolerate down to zone 8a, with no foliar damage whatsoever! I concur that the Robusta always grew new spears with a new crown pretty quickly.  But it did stunt it's growth a bit, and it would never grow as tall and as fast as in zone 9b+

[SeanK]

2 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

Agree on the Queens.  As far as Robusta, just for me personally, I would limit to zone 9b because I could not handle the crispy brown potato chip canopy every year at 22 degrees or under.  So, at that time, I switched to Filifera.  Whie not my favorite palm by far, it can easily tolerate down to zone 8a, with no foliar damage whatsoever! I concur that the Robusta always grew new spears with a new crown pretty quickly.  But it did stunt it's growth a bit, and it would never grow as tall and as fast as in zone 9b+

Filifera is tricky in a wet winter climate. They're tough to get going even in our summers, with all the rain.

[MJSanDiego]

@SeanK you like Robustas. Check out my Robusta today. I will send pics this winter too as it is just as green and grows new spears throughout the winter just like the Queens.  No crispy canopies here!!  I will be skinning the palm trunk soon for a more tropical look but it's time consuming removing all the tightly wrapped boots and using a box cutter to remove the fibers properly and evenly. The thorns on the petioles must be respected so I don't mind pruning this beauty, and soon using a ladder!!! Being a mature established palm, I slow drip and super soak it for two days straight. Then I let it dry out for one whole month before watering again, it loves it. Clay soil. I never water it during our rainy season

[JLM]

7 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

@SeanK is correct in both of his posts. Again, if you truly want a NO FUSS NO WORRY decades long healthy growing specimen of all it can be with never a hint of even cosmetic damage, it's a zone 10 palm. But if you push the zones you are not planting the species in its natural habitat and then anything can happen even death when you get those pesky new record low temps once a decade

If we want to get technical, nowhere in North America is its “natural habitat”.
 

Regardless of what anybody tries to tell me on this forum, I will continue to enjoy my queens here in z9a and will continue to protect them as necessary for as long as I can. I will no longer entertain this, so have a great rest of your day.
 

And by the way, nice robusta.

[MJSanDiego]

1 hour ago, SeanK said:

Filifera is tricky in a wet winter climate. They're tough to get going even in our summers, with all the rain.

Yep, I was growing the Filifera in the CA High Desert at the time.  Super dry winters. Averaging barely 2 inches of rain during the entire 6 month rain season compared to 10 inches here

[MJSanDiego]

@JLM I'm actually quite pleased to know that you love the Syragus Romanzoffiana so much that you are willing to dedicate the time and energy in your zone. I adore this stately elegant graceful beauty as you all surely know by now. Being a plant lover, I just feel bad for any palm that has to endure cosmetic damage at the very least each year, and perhaps stunted growth patterns and other issues in zone 8b/9a, as one can only protect it so much especially if it grows bigger and taller. I am not a believer in zone pushing, and not just for palms. I think many agree. I believe that one should be happy with plants that are truly appropriate for your zone. There is a zone 11 palm that I totally adore but I am in zone 10b so I won't plant it. It's simply futile IMO. Maybe I should start a new topic for discussion on this subject, what do you think @SeanK and others?  Or is it too divisive to bother? I think it's a great discussion though