Magnolia virginiana (Sweet Bay Magnolia)

[Than]

Since most of the folk here are from the US I bet some will have experience with this tree. I wonder how fast it grows; I only found one in a Dutch nursery, which is 2.5 feet tall. I am wondering if it is worth investing on it to create a canopy over my garden. Will I get this canopy in a reasonable amount of time? Thanks in advance!

[Silas_Sancona]

2 minutes ago, Than said:

Since most of the folk here are from the US I bet some will have experience with this tree. I wonder how fast it grows; I only found one in a Dutch nursery, which is 2.5 feet tall. I am wondering if it is worth investing on it to create a canopy over my garden. Will I get this canopy in a reasonable amount of time? Thanks in advance!

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/magnolia-virginiana/

[Than]

1 hour ago, Silas_Sancona said:

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/magnolia-virginiana/

Τhank you! What a detailed description. It says "rapid" growth rate; the seller on the other hand said it can grow up to 20 inches per year, which I find not very rapid at all. I also wonder if it can take heat well.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

All the magnolia species around here take our summer heat waves in stride. In Maryland, we've had a particularly dry summer as well. Drought conditions in some parts of the state and abnormally dry in the rest of it. That being said, I don't know how common these are the further south you go, compared to other magnolias. 

For a hardwood tree, 20 inches growth in height per year seems fairly reasonable to me. You have to figure it's growing about 20 inches wider as well each year. 

[Manalto]

I've grown Magnolia virginiana in Connecticut and would call its growth rate robust. There are certainly faster-growing trees but, unfortunately, not as beautiful. I think it's a good choice for your purpose.

[Than]

Thank you everyone. 

@PalmsInBaltimore if they grow equally wide then I'm happy.

I will buy it and plant it in the ground in autumn, after the heat and drought have passed. Our winters are mild, with only few nights around freezing and many days with 60 F. So I believe planting it in October in the ground won't be a bad idea, will it?

[Silas_Sancona]

6 hours ago, Than said:

Τhank you! What a detailed description. It says "rapid" growth rate; the seller on the other hand said it can grow up to 20 inches per year, which I find not very rapid at all. I also wonder if it can take heat well.

Tough to say..

Would see them occasionally in FL, more so north of Tampa.  Don't recall ever seeing any in or outside nurseries anywhere i lived or traveled in California..

Definitely not something you'd see here.

[PalmsInBaltimore]

7 minutes ago, Than said:

I will buy it and plant it in the ground in autumn, after the heat and drought have passed. Our winters are mild, with only few nights around freezing and many days with 60 F. So I believe planting it in October in the ground won't be a bad idea, will it?

I think you should be fine. It will likely need the usual protection a younger tree needs when it's first planted, but if your winters rarely go below freezing then the only thing you will need to worry about is watering. For the last 5-10 years we don't get much snow in the winter, but we do get nasty polar vortexes that make it sub-freezing for days and days at a time. I've never seen a magnolia die from them. Right now some trees are defoliating from our lack of rain but not the magnolias! Here they grow full shade to full sun year round. I was walking on a trail the other day and noticed some species of magnolia creeping along the ground under a dark canopy of oaks, poplars, and ash trees. Its main trunk had been cut off or broken off and the new growth was radiating out from the ground. October should be fine if the ground isn't going to freeze.

[Than]

4 hours ago, PalmsInBaltimore said:

I think you should be fine. It will likely need the usual protection a younger tree needs when it's first planted, but if your winters rarely go below freezing then the only thing you will need to worry about is watering. For the last 5-10 years we don't get much snow in the winter, but we do get nasty polar vortexes that make it sub-freezing for days and days at a time. I've never seen a magnolia die from them. Right now some trees are defoliating from our lack of rain but not the magnolias! Here they grow full shade to full sun year round. I was walking on a trail the other day and noticed some species of magnolia creeping along the ground under a dark canopy of oaks, poplars, and ash trees. Its main trunk had been cut off or broken off and the new growth was radiating out from the ground. October should be fine if the ground isn't going to freeze.

Thank you for the advice and the encouragement! No the ground doesn't freeze here. We get one very cold winter every 20-25 years but nothing a Magnolia cannot take.

[SeanK]

14 hours ago, Than said:

Since most of the folk here are from the US I bet some will have experience with this tree. I wonder how fast it grows; I only found one in a Dutch nursery, which is 2.5 feet tall. I am wondering if it is worth investing on it to create a canopy over my garden. Will I get this canopy in a reasonable amount of time? Thanks in advance!

I would say a moderate grower. These things grow by percentages, until they reach an adult height. I've never seen one as wide as tall. Maybe 16 foot spread and 40 foot height. It will also do well in a tighter space. As you get colder winters in z7, it goes from evergreen to partial deciduous. They do prefer more water than grandiflora. In z6 it is deciduous. I like it more than M.grandiflora. 

[Silas_Sancona]

1 hour ago, Than said:

Thank you for the advice and the encouragement! No the ground doesn't freeze here. We get one very cold winter every 20-25 years but nothing a Magnolia cannot take.

Winter cold / summer heat tolerance is one thing, " Will they grow, w/out constant nutrient issues  in my soil type " is another big thing to consider.. 

Like many Acid- loving plants, absence of these in California landscapes ..Cen and S. Cal. at least  is possibly tied to this species distain for Alkaline soil types, and dislike for drought- prone climates.   Hence why they'll often be found growing in / near swampy areas.

[Than]

8 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Winter cold / summer heat tolerance is one thing, " Will they grow, w/out constant nutrient issues  in my soil type " is another big thing to consider.. 

Like many Acid- loving plants, absence of these in California landscapes ..Cen and S. Cal. at least  is possibly tied to this species distain for Alkaline soil types, and dislike for drought- prone climates.   Hence why they'll often be found growing in / near swampy areas.

Uh oh. I didn't notice that. I assumed that not being tropical it would be tolerant of more soil types, just like M. grandiflora. 

You are right, this is a big issue. I don't know my soil's pH yet because soil will be added once my house is built in the plot.. Re irrigation I am happy to irrigate it the first years.

[Silas_Sancona]

21 minutes ago, Than said:

Uh oh. I didn't notice that. I assumed that not being tropical it would be tolerant of more soil types, just like M. grandiflora. 

You are right, this is a big issue. I don't know my soil's pH yet because soil will be added once my house is built in the plot.. Re irrigation I am happy to irrigate it the first years.

If you look at it's distribution map on iNaturalist, it's primary range is the S. Eastern U.S.  Soils east of roughly the Mississippi river are typically more on the acidic side than out here due to more evenly distributed / reliable rainfall..  

I'll see M. grandiflora specimens planted here occasionally, though none look happy -at all- 

Better looking ones back in CA..  Was a house i'd pass so often near downtown San Jose that had a massive specimen in their yard. Even at noon in the summer, anything under it's canopy was pretty dark. Nothing else grew under it. 

Others i grew up around were tall and a bit on the slender side..  Nothing compared to the other specimen i mentioned, or those i've seen growing in the southern U.S.  though.  Those can get HUGE  ..and the roots will tear up anything in their way.  Beautiful tree regardless..

[Than]

M grandiflora is very common here. It can tolerate any kind of acidity apparently. I haven't seen any huge ones but I assume it is because they are a late trend and also because people prune them.. Beautiful trees indeed but I am a bit blazé with trees that are so common.

Syagrus also loves acidic soil and it is omnipresent here, so maybe M. virginiana has a chance too.

[Than]

@Silas_Sancona wow, I just checked inaturalist and there is not a single specimen outside the east US! Darn, that says a lot. 

Regarding nothing growing underneath it, I guess that if I prune the lower branches, especially the ones on the east and south side, will allow for more light. 

[Silas_Sancona]

3 hours ago, Than said:

@Silas_Sancona wow, I just checked inaturalist and there is not a single specimen outside the east US! Darn, that says a lot. 

Regarding nothing growing underneath it, I guess that if I prune the lower branches, especially the ones on the east and south side, will allow for more light. 

That is for S. Magnolia ( M. grandiflora )..  Canopy of M. virginiana is typically  less dense / more light gets through, ( all the specimens i remember seeing at least ) so you shouldn't have issues w/  anything growing beneath it.

As i'd imagine you've seen there, leaves of S. Magnolia are very thick / take forever to break down ..which also helps keep the ground below its canopy free of other plants.  Big and really wide specimens at least.  Tall and narrow ones don't have that issue ..as much of an issue at least.

With the map, while it's data is pretty accurate, that doesn't mean there aren't any specimens being cultivated anywhere west of it's natural range either..  If you look at the distribution map for Southern Mag. you'll notice there aren't near as many observations of it in CA., even though it is a fairly common tree out there ...or in other states in the west. 

My guess is  if Sweet Bay is being cultivated on this side of the U.S., places like the  Pac. N.W. / mountain and coastal areas of CA, N. Cal esp ..specific spots in the northern part of the Central Valley / Sierra Nevada mtns  would be where you might come across one.  I'm sure if i were still out there, i'd probably have one tried myself..

There are other small-ish Magnolias also.  Sold both M. figo, AKA Banana Bush ( and yes, the flowers smell like ripe Bananas ) , Magnolia doltsopa,  a similar - sized sp. from China  ..And the winter deciduous " Saucer / Star " -type Magnolias of course.. 

Magnolia acuminata, ( Cucumber Tree ) is another. There's at least one specimen of it in a CA. Botanical Garden ( Huntington )

Magnolia X alba  has been grown in warmer parts of CA with pretty good success.

[Than]

2 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

That is for S. Magnolia ( M. grandiflora )..  Canopy of M. virginiana is typically  less dense / more light gets through, ( all the specimens i remember seeing at least ) so you shouldn't have issues w/  anything growing beneath it.

As i'd imagine you've seen there, leaves of S. Magnolia are very thick / take forever to break down ..which also helps keep the ground below its canopy free of other plants.  Big and really wide specimens at least.  Tall and narrow ones don't have that issue ..as much of an issue at least.

With the map, while it's data is pretty accurate, that doesn't mean there aren't any specimens being cultivated anywhere west of it's natural range either..  If you look at the distribution map for Southern Mag. you'll notice there aren't near as many observations of it in CA., even though it is a fairly common tree out there ...or in other states in the west. 

My guess is  if Sweet Bay is being cultivated on this side of the U.S., places like the  Pac. N.W. / mountain and coastal areas of CA, N. Cal esp ..specific spots in the northern part of the Central Valley / Sierra Nevada mtns  would be where you might come across one.  I'm sure if i were still out there, i'd probably have one tried myself..

There are other small-ish Magnolias also.  Sold both M. figo, AKA Banana Bush ( and yes, the flowers smell like ripe Bananas ) , Magnolia doltsopa,  a similar - sized sp. from China  ..And the winter deciduous " Saucer / Star " -type Magnolias of course.. 

Magnolia acuminata, ( Cucumber Tree ) is another. There's at least one specimen of it in a CA. Botanical Garden ( Huntington )

Magnolia X alba  has been grown in warmer parts of CA with pretty good success.

All these are nice species, especially doltsopa and X alba but virginiana still seems the most beautiful one to me! 

[Silas_Sancona]

54 minutes ago, Than said:

All these are nice species, especially doltsopa and X alba but virginiana still seems the most beautiful one to me! 

Absolute personal favorites in the Genus?  M. macrophylla, dealbata, nuevoleonensis, vovidesi, alejandrae, and M. ashei.. 

Big tropical looking leaves, Huge flowers. 14-18" across  ( possibly more, on M. dealbata. ) and rare / challenging to grow. 

Two rare sps in the Magnolia section of the family from the Sierra Madre Occidental /  'couple others from eastern Mexico in the same group also.

[Than]

10 hours ago, Silas_Sancona said:

Absolute personal favorites in the Genus?  M. macrophylla, dealbata, nuevoleonensis, vovidesi, alejandrae, and M. ashei.. 

Big tropical looking leaves, Huge flowers. 14-18" across  ( possibly more, on M. dealbata. ) and rare / challenging to grow. 

Two rare sps in the Magnolia section of the family from the Sierra Madre Occidental /  'couple others from eastern Mexico in the same group also.

Oh yeah macrophylla is obv a stunner. However I am looking for an evergreen tree.