Chrysalidocarpus no ID clumping species/hybrid

[Tracy]

I got this palm as Dypsis lancoenada in a nod to the Spanish "nada" or nothing.  While there are some features that resemble Chrysalidocarpus lanceolata, there are several distinct features that don't match.  I acquired the palm in 2012 or earlier (photo in pot).   After planting, I lost the growth point forgot about the palm and planted other things around it.  A new growth popped up a couple of years later and it now has two trunks, one larger with a single ring now and the small sprout. 

Leaflets are shorter than C lancolatus or pembanus.  It has a long petiole before the first leaflets emerge and is thinner in trunk than my skinniest form of C lanceolatus.  The color on the crownshaft and petiole after it pushes out can be seen in the photo.  I think that the leaflet count is probably much less than my C lanceolotus as well, but I haven't actually ever counted either.  Phil at Jungle Music in Encinitas was selling these around 2010-2013 as I recall, which is where this was acquired.  Any one else growing any of these and what are the thoughts on id?

[ruskinPalms]

Could be cabadae or something like pembanus x cabadae. I find those two difficult to tell apart and they really look similar at young/small sizes. Cabadae is quite variable already and probably has and does hybridize fairly easily. Anyway, I have something like what you have. It has been pretty slow for me and no where near as robust and vigorous as lutescens at least in my area. This was planted in 2015 at about 2 gallon size with 5 or 6 stems in it. Gets sunburned in the summer, yellows out some in the winter but survives. It should flower and seed eventually which might help with ID. Here are some pics, not sure if it is helpful for you or not.  Sorry the lightning is not good this evening. 

[ruskinPalms]

Oh and mine does have a couple small ramenta near the base of the leaflets. 

[Tracy]

14 hours ago, ruskinPalms said:

Could be cabadae or something like pembanus x cabadae. I find those two difficult to tell apart and they really look similar at young/small sizes. Cabadae is quite variable already and probably has and does hybridize fairly easily. Anyway, I have something like what you have. It has been pretty slow for me and no where near as robust and vigorous as lutescens at least in my area. This was planted in 2015 at about 2 gallon size with 5 or 6 stems in it. Gets sunburned in the summer, yellows out some in the winter but survives. It should flower and seed eventually which might help with ID. Here are some pics, not sure if it is helpful for you or not.  Sorry the lightning is not good this evening. 

Thanks for the thoughts and sharing your nice palm.  My palm in question has wider and shorter leaflets than my Chrysalidocarpus cabadae.  It is hard to see in the photos, but there is much less v in the terminal leaflet insertion or they are more relaxed so as not to create that v.  It is also a much skinnier trunk than Chrysalidocarpus cabadae,  more like a Chrysalidocarpus affinis in trunk diameter.

[ruskinPalms]

Yeah. I figured it was definitely a long shot we have the same palm. My suspicion is that your palm is some sort of one of a kind hybrid that you can name someday if it makes viable seeds that reproduce the same traits as your palm. I still find a lot of these green stemmed white crownshafted clumping Chrysalidocarpus palms are hard to tell apart, especially when young/small. 

[JD in the OC]

Tracy, i wanted to resurrect your post from last year to share some research I've been doing.

Here is what i just got identified by Dr. Don Hodel as "likely" Chrysalidocarpus lanceolatus 'Compact Form' aka. Chrysalidocarpus blackii:

 

And here is true Chrysalidocarpus lanceolatus according to Dr. William Baker habitat photos:

Both of these are distinct species and are growing in my yard in South FL zone 10b. 

The C. blackii is apparently being sold out of Hawaii and is common here in Florida while the C. lanceolatus is a bit more rare here in FL.  Could be the same case in CA.

JD

[Merlyn]

@JD in the OC interesting info, thanks!  I have a couple of Lanceolata from Floribunda and elsewhere, but none are more than 3 to 4 ft tall.  If I can get them to grow through the *almost* yearly frost damage they might be big enough to tell the real species.  So what are the visual differences, other than the crownshaft color?  And do you know if the Floribunda ones are Blackii or Lanceolata?

[tim_brissy_13]

16 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

@JD in the OC interesting info, thanks!  I have a couple of Lanceolata from Floribunda and elsewhere, but none are more than 3 to 4 ft tall.  If I can get them to grow through the *almost* yearly frost damage they might be big enough to tell the real species.  So what are the visual differences, other than the crownshaft color?  And do you know if the Floribunda ones are Blackii or Lanceolata?

This paper shows the critical characteristics of each on page 22. 
https://ucanr.edu/sites/HodelPalmsTrees/files/383978.pdf

my C lanceolatus keys out to be somewhere between the characteristics for blackii and lanceolatus so I think there’s a bit of a spectrum of characteristics between specimens and likely a significant climate/environmental influence. 

[JD in the OC]

Oooops, don't know how that picture that my 3-year-old drew made its way in there 😕

Merlyn,

Differences in the leaflet size and overlap, angle of the leaflets radiating from the rachis, inflorescence size and number of orders, overall growth speed, and interfoliar vs. infrafoliar inflorescense.  Yes, there is a chance the Floribunda ones could actually be C. blackii, but I don't want to make any definitive statements without more pictures and information.  My belief is that C. blackii is actually fairly ubiquitous here in Florida and the true C. lanceolatus is quite rare.

Tim,

Yes, that is the article I used to make a 4-page comparison which I sent to Dr. Hodel and he confirmed that my first palm does key out to C. blackii.  But, you are correct that environmental conditions and climate may create some differences in morphology, especially when juxtaposing CA vs. FL specimens.  Based on my comparison, the palm in the first picture above aligns with Hodel's C. blackii (taking into consideration the climactic differences between Fountain Valley, CA and Fort Myers, FL) and the second one aligns with Dr. Baker's C. lanceolatus habitat photos.

[JD in the OC]

C. lanceolatus:

 

C. blackii:

 

C. lanceolatus frond:

 

C. blackii frond:

 

C. lanceolatus inflorescense 

 

C. blackii inflorescense 

 

[Tracy]

18 hours ago, JD in the OC said:

C. lanceolatus:

 

C. blackii:

 

C. lanceolatus frond:

 

C. blackii frond:

 

C. lanceolatus inflorescense 

 

C. blackii inflorescense 

 

Yes, I need to look at the article and in particular,  compare the inflorescence to the key on my two mature specimens.   The palm I started this post with is a few years away from producing an inflorescence.  I will have to wait on it.  The years when it was just a dormant ball of roots with no trunk really set it back.