Tree removal?

[Hawsie]

I just bought a house, (Henderson NV) and the property has 3 beautiful 20-25' California Fan Palms approx. 23 years old.

Unfortunately, 2 are fairly close together, one is very close to the house and the other to the casita. A home inspector and 2 local tree experts have told me they should be removed ASAP, as they will damage the slab foundation of the house, if they haven't begun to already. A nearby concrete flag is beginning to lift, and I was told the root systems on these grow out horizontally, unlike most palms.

Are they overreacting? I am from NY, and know nothing about palms, other than that I find these to be stately and beautiful. Advice appreciated!

[Harry’s Palms]

Not likely, I have many palms around my house and haven’t had any problems. Those palms are quite old and have been there for a while. Most times , lifting concrete is from water getting under the slab . I had a pool at my old house that had no palms or trees around . The deck was concrete and had that same lifting you show . The inspector told me that the seams need to be caulked or that’s what happens. Those are quite large for the area so you may not want them there but I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it . I don’t have any that variety , Washingtonia Felifera  , maybe someone who has them can help. Harry

[flplantguy]

They are trying to make money on the removal would be my guess. The soil there is pretty hard also so i dont think it moves easily, certainly not with a shovel as my childhood taught me.  It could be that im wrong though, but thats what experience has taught me.  See if the county has an extension agency and ask them, they will give you the facts and nothing else.

[Merlyn]

@Hawsie pretty much all palms grow roots out horizontally as well as downwards.  Palm roots are not like dicot (think oak, pine, etc) roots, in that they don't grow outwards and then expand in diameter.  Oak roots are very invasive in that respect, because they will find a tiny crack with some moisture, grow into it as a 1/8" root and then expand out to 2, 3, 4 inches in diameter or more.  The roots will, however, grow a looong distance from the palm.  One PTer here posted photos of coastline coconuts where a hurricane had washed away the sand, and roots covered a mass nearly 100' from the palms!  In general yours are probably fine, there are plenty with tighter planting spots like these:

[Jim in Los Altos]

Tree “experts?” They should be ashamed of themselves if they call themselves experts. Those Washingtonia filifera are extremely unlikely to cause the problems that they are ascribing to. Those palms are fine, as is your home’s foundation. 

[DoomsDave]

@Hawsie, welcome - to the wild Wild West and to Palm Talk! (I’m originally from Cleveland Ohio myself.)

I concur with everyone who says your palms are okay where they are. (I wouldn’t call those tree experts again; if you have to, find someone else.)

[SeanK]

Bienvenido.

I envy you. Those filiferas are gorgeous. I would leave them where they are for the next 100 years.

[sonoranfans]

I have yet to meet a "tree expert" that knows much about palms.  This is a classical misunderstanding, palms are not trees.  They are more closely related to grass than trees.  

https://www.arborday.org/programs/nationaltree/palm.cfm#:~:text=It is unique both for,trees in the United States.

[MJSanDiego]

2 hours ago, SeanK said:

Bienvenido.

I envy you. Those filiferas are gorgeous. I would leave them where they are for the next 100 years.

Is this sarcasm? I'm just asking out of pure curiosity. You dislike Syagrus Romanzoffiana and W. Robustas, so I am a bit shocked and also intrigued by this comment

[MJSanDiego]

Personally I would not want a Filifera that close to the house. I would not be comfortable with anything larger than a pygmy date palm in that location. I'm not saying it will necessarily cause the issues stated by your experts, but I do know that those are massive palms with significant root systems, far more robust than robusta, king or queen palms for example, so I would be quite anxious. Not just with the roots but falling debris and a difficult maintenance location

[Jonathan]

5 minutes ago, MJSanDiego said:

Is this sarcasm? I'm just asking out of pure curiosity. You dislike Syagrus Romanzoffiana and W. Robustas, so I am a bit shocked and also intrigued by this 

Aaaaaaaghghghh!!! This is getting very old. People can like or dislike whatever they like or don't like...you can choose not to engage if it bothers you, but you can't influence subjective personal taste. Let go of it mate.

[MJSanDiego]

12 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Aaaaaaaghghghh!!! This is getting very old. People can like or dislike whatever they like or don't like...you can choose not to engage if it bothers you, but you can't influence subjective personal taste. Let go of it mate.

Huh? I don't know who you are. My quote above was in reply to SeanK since we have a history talking about certain palms. I was intrigued by his comment is all

[Jonathan]

14 minutes ago, MJSanDiego said:

Huh? I don't know who you are. My quote above was in reply to SeanK since we have a history talking about certain palms. I was intrigued by his comment is all

I'm just another PT local who's bewildered by your single minded attention to Syagrus r. I'm sure Sean appreciates your interest.

[Jim in Los Altos]

2 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

Personally I would not want a Filifera that close to the house. I would not be comfortable with anything larger than a pygmy date palm in that location. I'm not saying it will necessarily cause the issues stated by your experts, but I do know that those are massive palms with significant root systems, far more robust than robusta, king or queen palms for example, so I would be quite anxious. Not just with the roots but falling debris and a difficult maintenance location

Only comfortable with a Pygmy Date Palm near the house, Martin? I have nothing against Pygmies but that would be exceptionally boring IMO and those filifera are obviously groomed so I don’t see any reason to expect any debris “falling” out of them. I would personally hate my landscape if I didn’t have lots of mature palms “hugging” my home. 

[yachtingone]

Like Jim in Los Altos I too have large  mature palms next to my house foundation, driveway too! 

As I was informed 20+ years ago this would not and has been not a problem with concrete!

 

[Kim]

If you like the palms, keep them, they are pretty awesome.

[Phoenikakias]

I have recently planted two Phoenix atlantica juveniles in the spot of a dead Viburnum and near home's sewage pipeline in the hope that they will provide shade to nearby Chamaedorea clumps and groups. I had more fear of the Viburnum roots than of Phoenix.

[sonoranfans]

those are some nice filiferas!  The only thing I would do is not trim them up so much.  Ive seen hundreds of filiferas in arizona when I lived there for 10 years.  I never saw cracked concrete near them and there were plenty planted within 3' of concrete.  I have seen dicots crack lots of concrete and even home slabs.  Here in florida there are tons of palms planted near concrete in public places, some within inches of sidewalk, but I cant recall a single cracked sidewalk or drive.

[SeanK]

16 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

Is this sarcasm? I'm just asking out of pure curiosity. You dislike Syagrus Romanzoffiana and W. Robustas, so I am a bit shocked and also intrigued by this comment

Nope. They're beautiful.

My problem with Queens is that 90% aren't properly maintained. Widely planted, then forgotten.

My problem with robustas is that they don't fit residential architecture. I've seen nice ones in Phoenix, but they were in front of tall buildings. Plants and architecture should match. 

The photos of tall robustas on cliff sides look good.

[SeanK]

17 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I'm just another PT local who's bewildered by your single minded attention to Syagrus r. I'm sure Sean appreciates your interest.

I'm OK with it.

@MJSanDiego shared many pix of well cared-for Syagrus out his way. Too bad most (even in CA) are planted, then neglected. Heck, I've seen even ratty-looking Trachycarpus in LA.

[MJSanDiego]

19 hours ago, Jonathan said:

I'm just another PT local who's bewildered by your single minded attention to Syagrus r. I'm sure Sean appreciates your interest.

I think this whole debate really comes down to location.  Here in San Diego, CA, USA these palms are ubiquitous, everywhere you look is a Queen.  Residential, businesses, commercial, etc.  It is one of the main palms of choice here.  And most (not all) look healthy and lush, the same as the OPs, or better.  California spans 800 miles north to south with over 33 million people.  San Diego is just one city, the southernmost city, bordering Mexico with the mildest climate year-round.  But due to the abundance and availability of the Queen, many will see these palms in less-than-ideal climates, and they look tattered, withered, beat up, and struggling.  It's not the palm's fault, but rather the people.  Perhaps I should drive around some more and take more pics of the queens all over the place here, and post in a new thread so people can see why it's one of the choice palms here.  @SeanK already stated I have posted pics of nice-looking queens here. Should I post more?   @SeanK mentioned above that many neglect them, but most around here look nice, even the neglected ones

[DoomsDave]

@Hawsie see my PM (private message).

One cool thing about your new town is the palms you can raise there. If you have the room, you can plant more kinds if you want.

 

[tim_brissy_13]

4 hours ago, SeanK said:

Nope. They're beautiful.

My problem with Queens is that 90% aren't properly maintained. Widely planted, then forgotten.

My problem with robustas is that they don't fit residential architecture. I've seen nice ones in Phoenix, but they were in front of tall buildings. Plants and architecture should match. 

The photos of tall robustas on cliff sides look good.

Can you explain why? I know nothing about architecture and just wondering what makes W robusta a poor fit in your area? There’s many tall ones around here in Melbourne and to my eye they don’t look out of place.  How do they differ from an architectural fit perspective from say W filifera, Livistona sp or Sabal sp?
 

Honestly I don’t really understand the notion that plants should match surrounding architecture anyway, but maybe that’s because I’m a full blown palm addict. I’d tend to lean towards encouraging people to plant what is appealing to their eye and potentially cultivates their interest in plants long as it isn’t damaging to critical structures (e.g. certain Eucalyptus sp grown in residential areas here which naturally drop heavy branches in strong wind or rain - better suited to large public spaces imo). 

 

[MJSanDiego]

18 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Only comfortable with a Pygmy Date Palm near the house, Martin? I have nothing against Pygmies but that would be exceptionally boring IMO and those filifera are obviously groomed so I don’t see any reason to expect any debris “falling” out of them. I would personally hate my landscape if I didn’t have lots of mature palms “hugging” my home. 

I agree it would be boring, but it looked like a pretty tight space that might be hard to maneuver for pruning as well.  I am on an oversized lot, for the city lot here anyway, at 1/4 acre.  I have my Queen, Foxtails and W. Robusta no closer than 14 feet from my house. I might be a bit overly cautious, but I am also mindful of the homeowners insurance companies with some pretty extreme requirements lately, so I am just trying to play it safe.  And during pruning or frond/sheath shed, I don't have to worry about debris falling onto the roof.  I would never want to remove an established palm, or a grand palm such as this filifera, don't get me wrong, so I take careful consideration of mature growth and the species before deciding on a location

[SeanK]

3 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

I agree it would be boring, but it looked like a pretty tight space that might be hard to maneuver for pruning as well.  I am on an oversized lot, for the city lot here anyway, at 1/4 acre.  I have my Queen, Foxtails and W. Robusta no closer than 14 feet from my house. I might be a bit overly cautious, but I am also mindful of the homeowners insurance companies with some pretty extreme requirements lately, so I am just trying to play it safe.  And during pruning or frond/sheath shed, I don't have to worry about debris falling onto the roof.  I would never want to remove an established palm, or a grand palm such as this filifera, don't get me wrong, so I take careful consideration of mature growth and the species before deciding on a location

Fortunately, once palms reach calibre, they get no thicker. We also see pine trees growing close to houses. Those get fatter every year AND southern pines typically grow to 100ft and act as lightning rods.

[Harry’s Palms]

4 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

I agree it would be boring, but it looked like a pretty tight space that might be hard to maneuver for pruning as well.  I am on an oversized lot, for the city lot here anyway, at 1/4 acre.  I have my Queen, Foxtails and W. Robusta no closer than 14 feet from my house. I might be a bit overly cautious, but I am also mindful of the homeowners insurance companies with some pretty extreme requirements lately, so I am just trying to play it safe.  And during pruning or frond/sheath shed, I don't have to worry about debris falling onto the roof.  I would never want to remove an established palm, or a grand palm such as this filifera, don't get me wrong, so I take careful consideration of mature growth and the species before deciding on a location

I have palms that I planted 27 years ago . I didn’t do much planning as I moved here in Fall so I had to get them in the ground fast . The East winds were blowing hard and my potted collection was getting hammered. The as the years went by I was planting cute little seedlings , not sure if they would even make it . With no overhead protection from our warm summers , I planted some close to the house for shade. As they got bigger , and the canopy formed I realized there was a better way to go about it. I now plant with a bit more of a plan . Honestly , at my age , there is no starting over . Harry

[SeanK]

4 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

I agree it would be boring, but it looked like a pretty tight space that might be hard to maneuver for pruning as well.  I am on an oversized lot, for the city lot here anyway, at 1/4 acre.  I have my Queen, Foxtails and W. Robusta no closer than 14 feet from my house. I might be a bit overly cautious, but I am also mindful of the homeowners insurance companies with some pretty extreme requirements lately, so I am just trying to play it safe.  And during pruning or frond/sheath shed, I don't have to worry about debris falling onto the roof.  I would never want to remove an established palm, or a grand palm such as this filifera, don't get me wrong, so I take careful consideration of mature growth and the species before deciding on a location

Wouldn't a Livistona or Brahea fit your lot size better than that Washie?

[Hawsie]

I am the new second owner of the property. I suspect the original owner didn’t understand what they were planting over 20 years ago, on a brand new lot next to a brand new house. I see lots of mature plants and trees here that were poorly placed. The HOA had a requirement that owners have 2 or more trees in the front yard, On these small lots, there are now tremendous and illogical trees of many unsuitable varieties, all creating lots of headaches for the next generation of owners. With these well established Washies, the decision forward is a tough one to make. I can’t treat them like a misplaced mesquite, sumac or jeffrey pine, as their presence is benign by comparison.

[MJSanDiego]

14 hours ago, SeanK said:

Wouldn't a Livistona or Brahea fit your lot size better than that Washie?

Livistonia would be ok too. But the application for Robusta is most feasible here because I live on a steep slope with a very tall house. Even the fast growibg robusta does not grow fast enough for me! The garage on the first level has 10.5 ft high ceilings and the living room above that has 14 ft high ceilings and you add the roof pitch above and you are looking at about a 35 ft tall house. And the robusta is planted down slope at about 15 feet below the garage level floor. So when the palm gets to about 40 ft tall the canopy will just be even with the top of the roof 

[SeanK]

2 hours ago, MJSanDiego said:

Livistonia would be ok too. But the application for Robusta is most feasible here because I live on a steep slope with a very tall house. Even the fast growibg robusta does not grow fast enough for me! The garage on the first level has 10.5 ft high ceilings and the living room above that has 14 ft high ceilings and you add the roof pitch above and you are looking at about a 35 ft tall house. And the robusta is planted down slope at about 15 feet below the garage level floor. So when the palm gets to about 40 ft tall the canopy will just be even with the top of the roof 

Got it. Seems like the robusta was a good choice for being planted below the 3-story house. It's a good fit.