JUBAEA X BUTIA F3 SEEDS

[SailorBold]

Hello.. offering seeds from my Jubaea x Butia f3 hybrid. I have some extras to spare. For right now I'll be shipping in the US only as I've never done this before! 

~$1 ea + Shipping

Please DM me to place orders..

[Neoasis]

How hardy has the mother plant been?  I'd love to have a feather leaved palm but I'm in 7b and haven't had any luck.

[Deej]

Looks pretty hardy in the picture! Nice palm!

[SailorBold]

Ty.. it actually is!  Also quite leaf hardy !

[SailorBold]

2 hours ago, Neoasis said:

How hardy has the mother plant been?  I'd love to have a feather leaved palm but I'm in 7b and haven't had any luck.

Very hardy.. I'd say definitely z7.. leaf hardy to 9f.. depending on duration..

[Trustandi]

@SailorBold I received the seeds today. thank you.

[Scott W]

Did you sacrifice a few to check for embryos?

[SailorBold]

8 hours ago, Scott W said:

Did you sacrifice a few to check for embryos?

I didnt.. they are right off the tree.. they do sink however..

[amh]

My seeds arrived today, all sinkers.

[Laaz]

Sinkers do not mean they are viable. The local mules produce seeds, but they are solid with no embryo.

[Dwarf Fan]

On 9/19/2024 at 8:59 AM, Scott W said:

Did you sacrifice a few to check for embryos?

This would seem prudent at this point.

[SailorBold]

The tree does produce viable seeds... just to clarify..

[Drew N Carolina]

 Where is the mother tree growing?

[SailorBold]

On 9/28/2024 at 10:59 PM, Drew N Carolina said:

 Where is the mother tree growing?

In New Mexico.. a suburb of Albuquerque..

[CoconutGambler352]

Please post photos of the seed showing the embryo. 

Thank you 

[tarnado]

Hey yall and @SailorBold - this is my first and only attempt to find an embryo in a cocoid palm. Basically,, what the heck am I looking for?? A slightly whiter bundle of fibres near an 'eye?'

[SailorBold]

I don't know much about it.. but when the tree flowered and set seed the first time I did the same thing and started this thread..

 

 

 

[Bigfish]

On 11/23/2024 at 2:16 PM, tarnado said:

Hey yall and @SailorBold - this is my first and only attempt to find an embryo in a cocoid palm. Basically,, what the heck am I looking for?? A slightly whiter bundle of fibres near an 'eye?'

I don't see an obvious embryo in that seed, but it doesn't mean that there isn't one there somewhere.  It would be just under one of the "eyes".  Look at this post of my Butiagrus seeds and you can see clear embryos:

 

[tarnado]

On 11/25/2024 at 6:59 AM, Bigfish said:

Look at this post of my Butiagrus seeds and you can see clear embryos:

 

Hey, thanks - those are great close-up shots. I have recently reverted to an older phone that doesn't "do" close-ups very well. I also don't think I knew what I was looking for... anyhow, fingers crossed.

Those are great looking seeds!

[SailorBold]

Any updates?

[amh]

It has been too cold/cool for me to try germination, but I will begin this week.

[MobileBayGarden]

I would like to thank @SailorBold for offering these seeds. I have had great germination rates around 60%-70% so far. I started the seeds in December in three batches for a school project testing cocoid hybrid germination methods and my first flat is already pushing out their second leaves. These babies are fast! I hope everyone else is having good luck and looking forward to seeing your success!

Philippe

[SailorBold]

Awesome!

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

12 hours ago, MobileBayGarden said:

I would like to thank @SailorBold for offering these seeds. I have had great germination rates around 60%-70% so far. I started the seeds in December in three batches for a school project testing cocoid hybrid germination methods and my first flat is already pushing out their second leaves. These babies are fast! I hope everyone else is having good luck and looking forward to seeing your success!

Philippe

That's great! Please share temperatures, moisture, and medium type you used. Any special treatment before planting? Thanks!

[amh]

This is fantastic, I cant wait until mine germinate.

[SailorBold]

7 hours ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

That's great! Please share temperatures, moisture, and medium type you used. Any special treatment before planting? Thanks!

Yes!  I'm wondering if drilling thru them with a small drill bit would work..

[MobileBayGarden]

Ok... so for all 3 trial I used 75% perlite and 25% MG Sphagnum Peat Moss. Temps were consistent for all 3 trials. 82 to 84°F at 9 AM, 88 to 90°F at 1 PM, and 70 to 72°F at 6 PM. All seeds were cleaned and treated with 3% H2O2 and diluted fungicide for 24hrs then allowed to dry.
 

Trial one: 

This trial functioned as my control for the experiment. Seeds were soaked as is in deionized H2Owith diluted nutrient mixture for 48 hrs and then placed in germination box. Boxes were sprayed with diluted fungicide periodically as soil showed signs of surface drying. 
 

Trial two: 

Seeds were de-lidded and soaked in the deionized H2O with diluted nutrient mixture for 48 hrs and then placed in germination box. Boxes were sprayed with diluted fungicide periodically as soil showed signs of surface drying. 

Trial three: 

Seed was extracted from endocarp and operculum was removed using sterilized scalpel and magnifying glasses to promote imbibition and break embryo dormancy. Seeds were then soaked in the deionized H2O with diluted nutrient mixture and GA3 100PPM for 48 hrs and then placed in germination box. Boxes were sprayed with diluted fungicide periodically as soil showed signs of surface drying. 

Results at 30 days:

Trial one yielded 0% germination.

Trial two yielded 10% germination.

Trial three yielded 90% germination.

Results at 60 days:

Trial one yielded 5% germination.

Trial two yielded 30% germination.

Trial three yielded 90% germination. (No further germination occurred and remaining seed had succumb to fungal attack)

Results at 90 days:

Trial one yielded 5% germination.

Trial two yielded 55%  germination.

 

At this point remaining ungerminated seeds were removed and cleaned with H2O2. They were then allowed to dry for 3 days before removing endocarp. 60% of remaining seeds were still viable and 40% were in a state of decay. The remaining seeds were subjected to identical process of trial three and showed 100% emission of cotyledon petiole within 24hrs. 30% loss of seedlings occurred with this batch after emission of root and leaf primordium due to fungal/bacterial attack. 
 

I hope this is helpful. 

[Scott W]

Interesting results, thanks for sharing.  

What does your process of endocarp removal entail?

[SailorBold]

On 3/18/2025 at 9:03 PM, MobileBayGarden said:

Ok... so for all 3 trial I used 75% perlite and 25% MG Sphagnum Peat Moss. Temps were consistent for all 3 trials. 82 to 84°F at 9 AM, 88 to 90°F at 1 PM, and 70 to 72°F at 6 PM. All seeds were cleaned and treated with 3% H2O2 and diluted fungicide for 24hrs then allowed to dry.
 

Trial one: 

This trial functioned as my control for the experiment. Seeds were soaked as is in deionized H2Owith diluted nutrient mixture for 48 hrs and then placed in germination box. Boxes were sprayed with diluted fungicide periodically as soil showed signs of surface drying. 
 

Trial two: 

Seeds were de-lidded and soaked in the deionized H2O with diluted nutrient mixture for 48 hrs and then placed in germination box. Boxes were sprayed with diluted fungicide periodically as soil showed signs of surface drying. 

Trial three: 

Seed was extracted from endocarp and operculum was removed using sterilized scalpel and magnifying glasses to promote imbibition and break embryo dormancy. Seeds were then soaked in the deionized H2O with diluted nutrient mixture and GA3 100PPM for 48 hrs and then placed in germination box. Boxes were sprayed with diluted fungicide periodically as soil showed signs of surface drying. 

Results at 30 days:

Trial one yielded 0% germination.

Trial two yielded 10% germination.

Trial three yielded 90% germination.

Results at 60 days:

Trial one yielded 5% germination.

Trial two yielded 30% germination.

Trial three yielded 90% germination. (No further germination occurred and remaining seed had succumb to fungal attack)

Results at 90 days:

Trial one yielded 5% germination.

Trial two yielded 55%  germination.

 

At this point remaining ungerminated seeds were removed and cleaned with H2O2. They were then allowed to dry for 3 days before removing endocarp. 60% of remaining seeds were still viable and 40% were in a state of decay. The remaining seeds were subjected to identical process of trial three and showed 100% emission of cotyledon petiole within 24hrs. 30% loss of seedlings occurred with this batch after emission of root and leaf primordium due to fungal/bacterial attack. 
 

I hope this is helpful. 

This is outstanding...

[MobileBayGarden]

8 hours ago, Scott W said:

Interesting results, thanks for sharing.  

What does your process of endocarp removal entail?

Oh buddy, that is a loaded question and depends on the species entirely. I have removed endocarp on over 2000 Butyagrus F2 seeds for our project  since July last year and have almost got it down to a science with very little to no damage. If you want to DM me I can probably help you out. I have midterms this week so bear with me. 

[SailorBold]

You dont have to answer now...Is the operculum the "eye" of the seed? I'm also curious if the embryos were separated? Or the termed seeds.. did any produce doubles?

This is too cool..

[jimmyt]

That sounds like the “de-lidding” technique described on PT several years ago.  The post is in the PT archives. 🙂

[MobileBayGarden]

Two midterms down, and while I have a moment to breathe, I wanted to provide a quick overview of seed biology and the purpose of the three trials. The evolutionary goal of every plant is to reproduce most effectively within the environment in which it evolved. In my opinion, no seed should be impossible or even difficult to germinate, provided we understand its basic biological needs and the environmental factors in which it evolved.

 

Over the years, I’ve wasted many valuable seeds (which is always heartbreaking) and spent far too much money by treating every seed the same. My approach used to be as simple as soaking them, discarding the ones that floated, planting them in soil somewhere warm, and relying on the power of prayer. While this method may suffice for standard domesticated garden vegetables, ancient plants like cycads (280 million years old) and palms (80 million years old) evolved in vastly different conditions. Palms, in particular, evolved during the Cretaceous period, when the Earth was much warmer, and the world looked very different.

 

Over the last 80 million years, as the continents drifted apart and the Earth cycled through ice ages and warmer periods, palms evolved and adapted to their slowly changing environments, resulting in more than 2,500 species today.

 

The three primary physiological factors essential for the germination of any seed are: (a) imbibition of water, (b) cell elongation, and (c) an increase in cell number. Palms have evolved a variety of strategies to achieve these goals. As humans, our task is to understand the natural evolutionary challenges faced by these truly undomesticated plants and to find ways to maximize germination in the most efficient manner possible.

 

A bit of background on Cociods: The ancestor of all Butia, Syagrus (Lytocaryum), Jubaea, etc., likely evolved in what was once a tropical paradise. Over geological time, however, the Earth underwent significant changes, and palms adapted accordingly. Brazil, being the cradle of evolution for most Butia species, has undergone drastic transformations. Not only has it drifted further south and cooled substantially, but it has also experienced uplift, mountain building, changes in weather patterns, and variations in precipitation. As the ancestors of our favorite palms were subjected to these forces over millions of years, some species died out, while others adapted. Today, we have species that cover vast areas and have adapted to multiple environments, such as Queens, while other species occupy very specific pockets, such as a single mountain slope in Minas Gerais, Brazil.

 

Interesting side note: I recently came across a study from 2023 in which what was previously lumped into Butia archeri var. ‘archeri’ and var. ‘diamantinensis’ has now been reclassified into several distinct Butia and Syagrus subspecies. If you’ve been growing archeri since 1984, please reach out to me—I’d love to share the article and see what you’ve been working with. Several of the original pockets of subspecies that produced seeds are now completely urbanized and may be extinct in the wild.

 

That’s enough background for now. I need to get back to studying, but I will continue this discussion later, focusing on how to use this data to break dormancy in Cociods. Wish me luck!

 

[nduba]

Good luck in yr exams! Quite an educative piece you hv shared with us laymen, thank you

[MobileBayGarden]

35 minutes ago, nduba said:

Good luck in yr exams! Quite an educative piece you hv shared with us laymen, thank you

Sorry about being long winded. I've been teaching Intro Geology and Chem 2 the last couple of semesters as an SI and I'm stuck in teacher mode. Honestly though, It never hurts to understand the origin of something to truly appreciate why it behaves the way it does. 

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

I don't think you were long winded, you simply gave an excellent detailed description which is exactly what helps us all learn.  And you are greatly contributing knowledge to this platform that will help others for years to come. Keep up the good work.  And yes, Good Luck!

[Fusca]

Here's a couple of threads regarding de-lidding seeds for aiding germination:

 

 

[Bigfish]

12 hours ago, Fusca said:

Here's a couple of threads regarding de-lidding seeds for aiding germination:

 

 

Those are some great methods, but vastly different than removing the seed of a cocosoid palm from the endocarp.  Typically you need to dry it out for a couple of weeks so the seed rattles around inside, and find a method of gently breaking it without harming the seed inside.  There are many who have tried many different methods with some degree of success.  A nurseryman in NC uses a brick with a hollowed out space just large enough for a seed, and where the seed barely pokes above the horizon of the brick, then "gently" smashes it with another brick.  There are some casualties, but it's effective.

[MobileBayGarden]

@Bigfish Is correct that this is a very different situation due to the cell density of the endocarp. 
 

This is a cross section of a Butia odorata seed that has been cleaned and dried. The endocarp is very thick and inhibits imbibition of H2O. As I mention in my earlier post imbibition of water is the first physiological need of the embryo to break dormancy.
 

This fact is the sole reason why trial 2 was designed. De-lidding in the case of Cocoid seed is conceptually the same as the 2 articles  posted earlier but in this case only the eye of the pore opening is removed to allow immediate imbibition. (I can post a Cocoid specific tutorial if needed) This process in theory should break dormancy and minimize damage to the seed as well as minimizing fungal and bacterial contamination.  While it does promote higher and quicker germination rates there are some drawbacks backs to this method as well. 

Fresh seeds of most species respond best to this method and I prefer it for species that have a tendency to rot easily such as Jubaea. I also prefer to use this method if the seeds are only singles. The last advantage is that any seed that does not germinate can still be used in Trial 3 which I will discuss on my next post. 
 

 

[MobileBayGarden]

I have recently removed all the seeds from a batch of Butyagrus nabannondii x Syagrus romanzoffiana that did not germinate after a month. This hybridization was carried out last fall. I had de-lidded the seeds and followed the same process used in Trial #2, as described in my previous post, achieving a germination success rate of approximately 40%. Once the seeds are fully dried, I will compile a tutorial for Trial #3. I just need to figure out a way to take a photo with my phone without using my hands!