Royals and Queens surviving 14f/-10 Celsius

[Palmfarmer]

Did a little searching to check out what survived the "palmageddon" in Durango 2011. To my surprise I find Queens and even a Royal that thrives today. (this was just a quick search.

This Climate fascinates me more and more of what you can get away with if the cold bursts are short enough and it warms up in the day. Looks as if the 14f lasted maybe only an hour, but still Amazing. 

here is the temperature readings: https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/MMDO/date/2011-2-2

 Royals and Queens in 2009 and 2014

[sonoranfans]

data in the link say 27F was the low not 14F.  I see 14F int he dewpoint there but dewpoints are low in drier climates.  I have no doubt both can survive 27F for such a short duration of 2 hrs.  They can go lower that that in the desert where the old is so brief.

[Jim in Los Altos]

TJ, As Tom mentioned above, you quoted the dew point of 14° rather than the actual low air temperature which was 27°F. The afternoon temperature recovered to 72°F. Queen palms and Royals can manage that quite well. 

[Palmfarmer]

2 hours ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

TJ, As Tom mentioned above, you quoted the dew point of 14° rather than the actual low air temperature which was 27°F. The afternoon temperature recovered to 72°F. Queen palms and Royals can manage that quite well. 

it was the wrong date. Look here. here it dips to 12f airtemprature https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/mx/durango/MMDO/date/2011-2-4

[Palmfarmer]

17 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

data in the link say 27F was the low not 14F.  I see 14F int he dewpoint there but dewpoints are low in drier climates.  I have no doubt both can survive 27F for such a short duration of 2 hrs.  They can go lower that that in the desert where the old is so brief.

Yes you are correct. The real Palmageddon here was on the 4th of Februrary, were the airtemprature actually was 12f for an hour or so. 

https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/mx/durango/MMDO/date/2011-2-4

[sonoranfans]

4 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Yes you are correct. The real Palmageddon here was on the 4th of Februrary, were the airtemprature actually was 12f for an hour or so. 

https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/mx/durango/MMDO/date/2011-2-4

So if I look back at what happened the day before looks like there may have been a sensor failure at 743pm to 9PM and no data collected from 12 midnight to 6AM.  It mIght be nothing, but it looks suspicious the way the temp fell 40 degrees in 2 hours(or less based on lack of data between 7:43 PM and 9:56PM) on the 3rd.  When I tracked agricultural readings of temp, moisture, humidity etc int he field, I found discontinuities were often associated with sensor failure or a software/connection problem.  You really need to follow temps continuously every half hour to strengthen the statistical  legitimacy of readings in a time window.  Maybe it did actually hit 14F but the disruption of readings for 6 hrs and the discontinuity observed on the 3rd from 7:43 to 9:56PM calls the accuracy of the data early on the 4th into question.  Is there another weather source nearby for a check?  

[Palmfarmer]

1 hour ago, sonoranfans said:

So if I look back at what happened the day before looks like there may have been a sensor failure at 743pm to 9PM and no data collected from 12 midnight to 6AM.  It mIght be nothing, but it looks suspicious the way the temp fell 40 degrees in 2 hours(or less based on lack of data between 7:43 PM and 9:56PM) on the 3rd.  When I tracked agricultural readings of temp, moisture, humidity etc int he field, I found discontinuities were often associated with sensor failure or a software/connection problem.  You really need to follow temps continuously every half hour to strengthen the statistical  legitimacy of readings in a time window.  Maybe it did actually hit 14F but the disruption of readings for 6 hrs and the discontinuity observed on the 3rd from 7:43 to 9:56PM calls the accuracy of the data early on the 4th into question.  Is there another weather source nearby for a check?  

yes I am almost 100% certain it is a correct reading. The time of the dip is also at the time its always the coldest here in the winter as well. I measured 24f 3 years ago at a similar time and my bottle survived although standing under a roof in a pot. 

Locals have also talked about this even where it got -10 and snow. I did not believe it before seeing the data.

I am having issues finding any other stations that measures correctly on WU some claim 60f that day which is just completely wrong. The airport one is the most reliable and the one I posted first. 

but I found some for the cities around Durango: 

Torreon which is 3 hours away and around 500m lower in elevation showed 18 °F. While Chihuahua had a brief dip to 0f for roughly and hour at the same time as well. 

That said it is recorded at the airport which is the cold side of the city and the microclimates here are very varying. 

After the 24f night and countless 32f nights my banana plant had to be cut in half due to frost burn. While another one around 200m away positioned in a slight slope had close to zero damage and had fruit on it. 

 

 

 

[Palmfarmer]

Here is a short article about the freeze in North Mexico that day in Spanish. it reached -15c in Ciudad Juarez. 

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/ultimas_noticias/2011/02/110204_ultnot_mexico_frio_lr

[Jim in Los Altos]

4 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Here is a short article about the freeze in North Mexico that day in Spanish. it reached -15c in Ciudad Juarez. 

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/ultimas_noticias/2011/02/110204_ultnot_mexico_frio_lr

The real savior in this is that by the following afternoon, the temperature was 66°F. It’s amazing how your area recovers from freezes in just a few hours.  

[Palmfarmer]

4 minutes ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

The real savior in this is that by the following afternoon, the temperature was 66°F. It’s amazing how your area recovers from freezes in just a few hours.  

Yes its due to being so far south. Yes its really fascinating. I guess technically Durango is 8A then lol? 

[Foxpalms]

12 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

it was the wrong date. Look here. here it dips to 12f airtemprature https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/mx/durango/MMDO/date/2011-2-4

It looks like the area where those palms are planted would have an urban heat island effect so it was likely a few degrees f warmer.

[Palmfarmer]

28 minutes ago, Foxpalms said:

It looks like the area where those palms are planted would have an urban heat island effect so it was likely a few degrees f warmer.

yes, The reading is done at the airport east right outside the city. so perhaps 14-15 in many places. I will look at the other royals with street view now. Wish I could find I bismarckia here. There is only one planted in a big pot in the Centro of the city so it will never get that big I think. 

[sonoranfans]

16 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

yes, The reading is done at the airport east right outside the city. so perhaps 14-15 in many places. I will look at the other royals with street view now. Wish I could find I bismarckia here. There is only one planted in a big pot in the Centro of the city so it will never get that big I think. 

Bismarckia will take more cold than a royal;  Dry areas tend to have massive heat island effects.  My place on gilbert AZ well within the heat island was 21F low in Jan15 2007.  Chandler was 18F just 3 miles away and casa grande just outside the heat island was 16F.  Radiative events have a fast drop and rise but wide variation.  This all says zones dont apply the same in your area as the temperature of the plant not the air is the critical factor.  Bigger plant means longer cooling time, also concrete walls and landscaping remain warm a lot longer than the air and radiate heat.  IF you really want to know your temps in  radiative events, a yard sensor is needed.  Canopy keeps the ground warm.  In 2007 I hasd 6 pygmy date clusters in my yard, 4 under (9) queen palms two in the open.  The ones under the queens didnt even burn at all while those in the open survived but were completely defoliated including spears.   That event taught me that in dry climates with low dew points you cant trust a sensor out in the open in your own yard to tell you what the temperature is close to the house or under canopy.  Actual 5-6 F variations are definitely possible at a single point in time.  And then fast recovery of temps means the palm never reaches air temp as well.  

[Palmfarmer]

5 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Bismarckia will take more cold than a royal;  Dry areas tend to have massive heat island effects.  My place on gilbert AZ well within the heat island was 21F low in Jan15 2007.  Chandler was 18F just 3 miles away and casa grande just outside the heat island was 16F.  Radiative events have a fast drop and rise but wide variation.  This all says zones dont apply the same in your area as the temperature of the plant not the air is the critical factor.  Bigger plant means longer cooling time, also concrete walls and landscaping remain warm a lot longer than the air and radiate heat.  IF you really want to know your temps in  radiative events, a yard sensor is needed.  Canopy keeps the ground warm.  In 2007 I hasd 6 pygmy date clusters in my yard, 4 under (9) queen palms two in the open.  The ones under the queens didnt even burn at all while those in the open survived but were completely defoliated including spears.   That event taught me that in dry climates with low dew points you cant trust a sensor out in the open in your own yard to tell you what the temperature is close to the house or under canopy.  Actual 5-6 F variations are definitely possible at a single point in time.  And then fast recovery of temps means the palm never reaches air temp as well.  

Yes Definitely Its just that I only know about 2 around the city, Mine and the one I mentioned. 

All this is great news and is making me want to experience with even more tropical plants and palms. I have had a Latan in a pot for 2 years now and it is finally starting to grow properly. I think a Coconut at a place with the perfect microclimate could be a fun experiment. They are really cheap as well. 

Will try Coconuts and Mango trees in the bed behind my house. just need a cross first lol 

[sonoranfans]

2 hours ago, Palmfarmer said:

Yes Definitely Its just that I only know about 2 around the city, Mine and the one I mentioned. 

All this is great news and is making me want to experience with even more tropical plants and palms. I have had a Latan in a pot for 2 years now and it is finally starting to grow properly. I think a Coconut at a place with the perfect microclimate could be a fun experiment. They are really cheap as well. 

Will try Coconuts and Mango trees in the bed behind my house. just need a cross first lol 

Latan is probably not the palm you want to try they are more cold sensitive.  Copernicia Hospita, baileyana couild work well with your rapid radiative events.l Perhaps bismarckia are not as widespread as royals in your area.  When I moved into my current neighborhood 12 years ago, there were just 2 bismarckias, now there are probably 1 in 5-6 homes with them.  What is available and what landscapers push can vary.  When I lived in phoenix area arizona, I could not get many palms that are now available there.   The only aspect where bismarckia might not be a fit is summer heat, its a little cool there but I would definitely try one.  Other than that they are well adapted to low 20's lows in a dry climate.

[Jim in Los Altos]

8 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Latan is probably not the palm you want to try they are more cold sensitive.  Copernicia Hospita, baileyana couild work well with your rapid radiative events.l Perhaps bismarckia are not as widespread as royals in your area.  When I moved into my current neighborhood 12 years ago, there were just 2 bismarckias, now there are probably 1 in 5-6 homes with them.  What is available and what landscapers push can vary.  When I lived in phoenix area arizona, I could not get many palms that are now available there.   The only aspect where bismarckia might not be a fit is summer heat, its a little cool there but I would definitely try one.  Other than that they are well adapted to low 20's lows in a dry climate.

Tom, I think Bismarkia can work well in his city. My summer high and low temperature averages are nearly identical to his and I’ve got a husky trunking Bismarkia that I planted as a small 5 gallon size.  
 

[Palmfarmer]

13 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

Latan is probably not the palm you want to try they are more cold sensitive.  Copernicia Hospita, baileyana couild work well with your rapid radiative events.l Perhaps bismarckia are not as widespread as royals in your area.  When I moved into my current neighborhood 12 years ago, there were just 2 bismarckias, now there are probably 1 in 5-6 homes with them.  What is available and what landscapers push can vary.  When I lived in phoenix area arizona, I could not get many palms that are now available there.   The only aspect where bismarckia might not be a fit is summer heat, its a little cool there but I would definitely try one.  Other than that they are well adapted to low 20's lows in a dry climate.

I already have a Bismarck thats been in the ground for around 4 years. It might grow slightly slower though.