Visit to Jim's garden, and cool-summer recommendations?

[Foggy Paul]

Hi all. On Saturday my wife and I visited @Jim in Los Altos's incomparable garden, about forty miles south of here. Jim's garden is absolutely amazing. His unusual/rare species are too numerous to mention (or photograph) and he is successfully growing species I could never dream of here. His winter lows are maybe a degree or two cooler than ours, but his summer highs are consistently 15°-20° higher, and he gets little fog. For example, his Rhapis excelsa looks terrific, while I just removed ours because it sulked for five years and the leaves wouldn't even go palmate. But there were a few plants in his collection which we discussed as being potentially adaptable to cool-summer climates which I would like to try. Among them are Chambeyronia macrocarpa and/or hookeri (of course) and Euterpe edulis (maybe orange crownshaft type). For reference, in addition to Rhapis, I have been unable to grow Prestoea montana and Cyphophoenix elegans which both croaked quickly, but Geonoma undata, C. onilahensis and all our Chamaedoreas are doing well. We have a small garden and can't accommodate species which get large. What do you all think? @Darold Petty?

[Darold Petty]

come on over, Paul, and I will give you a Chambeyronia hookeri !

[Foggy Paul]

11 minutes ago, Darold Petty said:

come on over, Paul, and I will give you a Chambeyronia hookeri !

Is ten minutes too soon?!?

[richnorm]

Try Prestoea acuminata.  Amazing palm that really should be grown more in cool areas.

[Jonathan]

1 hour ago, richnorm said:

Try Prestoea acuminata.  Amazing palm that really should be grown more in cool areas.

Send seed immediately please...I'll send you a courier pigeon!

[Jonathan]

1 hour ago, Darold Petty said:

come on over, Paul, and I will give you a Chambeyronia hookeri !

Do they grow ok for you Darold?

[Darold Petty]

Unclear, at this writing.  I failed twice before in a very shady area.  Third try, I have a better spot with morning sun and afternoon shade.  I bought a large plant last spring.  So far the spear has doubled in length, but not opened.  A friend with much warmer summer weather here in the Bay Area, (San Rafael) told me that he gets only one frond per year, but each one is markedly larger than the previous one.

Perhaps Jim can elaborate.   The one I gave Paul just now came from Floribunda and was inside my greenhouse.

[Jonathan]

Sounds a bit dubious then perhaps. Jim gets far more heat than me. I'm really trying to avoid the New Cal stuff, as I suspect it's  a road to ruin.

[Darold Petty]

So far, I never have had positive results with New Caledonian palms.   

[Jim in Los Altos]

12 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

Sounds a bit dubious then perhaps. Jim gets far more heat than me. I'm really trying to avoid the New Cal stuff, as I suspect it's  a road to ruin.

Paul, First off, it was a pleasure having you two to the garden! Perhaps try a Chambeyronia in a spot that receives some sun. Maybe adjacent to a south or west facing wall. The picture below is one of my young ones this past January opening a new leaf in the winter’s cool temperatures. Most of my twelve flamethrowers produce three new fronds per year. The slower ones, 1 and half to two. It’s worth a try. 
 

[Jonathan]

2 hours ago, richnorm said:

Try Prestoea acuminata.  Amazing palm that really should be grown more in cool areas.

On a more serious note Richard, is this P acuminata v acuminata the Andean subspecies? I tried and failed with v montana many years ago, but that one is from the Caribbean from memory and I suspect far less cool tolerant than v acuminata?? Do you know the provenance of your  palm? Cheers.

[Foggy Paul]

2 minutes ago, richnorm said:

Try Prestoea acuminata.  Amazing palm that really should be grown more in cool areas.

 

As mentioned, I failed with var. montana and am not eager to try again...I'd love to hear of people growing this in SF. Darold has a nice one but it is very protected, more so than we can provide.

[richnorm]

10 minutes ago, Jonathan said:

On a more serious note Richard, is this P acuminata v acuminata the Andean subspecies? I tried and failed with v montana many years ago, but that one is from the Caribbean from memory and I suspect far less cool tolerant than v acuminata?? Do you know the provenance of your  palm? Cheers.

Yeah, it's the highland form collected by Keith Boyer in the Andes. Prestoea acuminata var acuminata is what I have always known it as.  I can't grow var montana. It survives for years but it doesn't make progress due to lack of heat I think.   I sprouted a few var acuminata from NZ produced seed last year and they sailed through winter outside. There are a bunch of inflorescences coming so may have seed later next year but the rules now make it a bit hard to share.

[PlantMorePalms]

I planted a couple of 1g hookeris in full sun a couple of years ago, and they grow at a decent (for SF) pace, although they still sun burn pretty badly. The latest frond opened at the beginning of June and stayed burn free until the recent heat wave. The next spear was 1" then and almost 20" now.  I do give them a lot of water.

For other smaller palm ideas, Ravenea hildebrandtii has been easy in the shade for me and R. glauca similarly easy in full sun.

[Foggy Paul]

I picked up @Darold Petty's hookeri today. It's a lovely little plant, about 24" high and with a salmon new leaf:

11 minutes ago, PlantMorePalms said:

I planted a couple of 1g hookeris in full sun a couple of years ago, and they grow at a decent (for SF) pace, although they still sun burn pretty badly. The latest frond opened at the beginning of June and stayed burn free until the recent heat wave. The next spear was 1" then and almost 20" now.  I do give them a lot of water.

 

 

Thanks @PlantMorePalms, that is useful and may answer my next question. I have two potential locations for this palm. One gets morning shade and afternoon sun (I know the opposite would be ideal, but we don't have that). This would be right next to our Geonoma, Ceroxylon and Rhopalostylis (the Ceroxylon is hidden behind the little rhododendron). It also has overhead protection from the neighbor's cherry tree, which Darold noted might be good for this species.

The second is on the other side of the yard, open to the sky and with full sun until about 4pm. Honestly I am leaning toward this location, but don't want to fry the plant. (The Acacia on the neighbor's side is a root sport which we will remove for them if they don't do it.)

Any thoughts would be welcome. Also, as Darold noted, this was in his unheated greenhouse. How long do you think I should let it acclimate before planting it out? Thanks, you folks are the best!!

[PlantMorePalms]

If it were me I'd probably plant it in the second spot and throw a shade cloth over it. I wish I had used shade cloth in retrospect. I'm fairly confident that these will have no problem with full sun once they get more size though. 

[tim_brissy_13]

3 hours ago, Jonathan said:

Send seed immediately please...I'll send you a courier pigeon!

Join the queue! Richard’s P acuminata is just about my favourite palm posted on PT. Need to find a way around the phyto requirements!

Just to contribute to the thread - some good suggestions already Ceroxylon, G undata etc. There are heaps of Chamaedorea that would work if you can provide some shade. Parajubaea sp if you’ve got the space. Some of the highland Chrysalidocarpus should be ok too (baronii, onilahensis etc). Linospadix monostachyos, Laccospadix and Oraniopsis are underrated Aus natives that should love it there too. 

[Harry’s Palms]

My C. Macrocarpa , here in Southern California , is starting to open its third frond this year. Planted in full sun , it burns only a little now . It has almost 6’ of smooth trunk , over 20 years old.

Jim’s garden , from the pictures I have seen here, is fabulous.Harry

[Tassie_Troy1971]

10 hours ago, Darold Petty said:

So far, I never have had positive results with New Caledonian palms.   

Same here Darold in coastal Tasmania new Caledonia palms just don't grow 

[Foggy Paul]

18 hours ago, PlantMorePalms said:

If it were me I'd probably plant it in the second spot and throw a shade cloth over it. I wish I had used shade cloth in retrospect. I'm fairly confident that these will have no problem with full sun once they get more size though. 

That’s what I’ll do. I ordered a 3’x6’ 50% shade cloth that will arrive tomorrow and this palm will go in the ground underneath it. Of course I shouldn’t need to leave it up for long, until next spring rolls around. Thanks everyone and especially @Darold Petty and @PlantMorePalms!!

[Foggy Paul]

16 hours ago, tim_brissy_13 said:

Just to contribute to the thread - some good suggestions already Ceroxylon, G undata etc. There are heaps of Chamaedorea that would work if you can provide some shade. Parajubaea sp if you’ve got the space. Some of the highland Chrysalidocarpus should be ok too (baronii, onilahensis etc). Linospadix monostachyos, Laccospadix and Oraniopsis are underrated Aus natives that should love it there too. 

Of these we have C. parvifrons, G. undata, C. onilahensis, and 4 kinds of Chamaedorea (probably with more to come). I’d love to track down a few L. monostachyos as they are looking great at the Strybing, a mile or so from us. Laccospadix is an interesting suggestion that I may look into. Oraniopsis may be too slow even for me 🤣 Thanks @tim_brissy_13 for the suggestions.

[Foggy Paul]

Here it is in the ground, with and without the little shade structure I made for it. Hopefully this will keep it happy for a year or two, after which I hope it won't need it. Number of palm species in the garden is up to a dozen, not much I know but I'm working on it. Thanks again @Darold Petty and @Jim in Los Altos for the inspiration.

[Rivera]

Paul,

I have a Chambeyronia macrocarpa var flavopicta (much too young to see if it actually develops this trait as its parent plant did). It was growing around Howea speed in my covered atrium (where even Ptychosperma macarthurii grows), but really slowed to a crawl when I moved it outside into a cool morning sun position. Abysmally slow through even last year's very mild winter.

Though I keep it moist, it needs to go up a pot size and I suspect this has slowed it down further. I'll pot it up with a fresh mix in a bigger pot, but I don't plan to put it in the landscape as I just won't bother with any plants that seem to resent consistently cool weather.

Anyhow, I suspect it was a good idea on your part to just put it in the ground. Can anyone confirm Chambeyronia appreciates some space for its roots, even at a small size (first five years of life)?

Hope it grows well for you.

[Foggy Paul]

19 minutes ago, Rivera said:

Paul,

I have a Chambeyronia macrocarpa var flavopicta (much too young to see if it actually develops this trait as its parent plant did). It was growing around Howea speed in my covered atrium (where even Ptychosperma macarthurii grows), but really slowed to a crawl when I moved it outside into a cool morning sun position. Abysmally slow through even last year's very mild winter...Anyhow, I suspect it was a good idea on your part to just put it in the ground.

Thanks for the shared experience Chris. Yeah, I assume it will want as much heat as we can give it and I think this location is the best we can do. It was in a 1 gallon pot and the roots were just starting to circle. I failed with a Cyphophoenix elegans in the same spot but didn't provide any shelter for it...hopefully this fares better.  @Jim in Los Altos noted during my visit that he generally just throws palms in the ground when very young and sees what sticks. As long as we can keep the rats, gophers and slugs away, I'm inclined to do the same.

[Rivera]

25 minutes ago, Foggy Paul said:

Thanks for the shared experience Chris. Yeah, I assume it will want as much heat as we can give it and I think this location is the best we can do. It was in a 1 gallon pot and the roots were just starting to circle. I failed with a Cyphophoenix elegans in the same spot but didn't provide any shelter for it...hopefully this fares better.  @Jim in Los Altos noted during my visit that he generally just throws palms in the ground when very young and sees what sticks. As long as we can keep the rats, gophers and slugs away, I'm inclined to do the same.

Yes, so many urban varmints. A family of raccoons ate our abundant passion fruit crop in days and rats defoliated our Ravenea glauca for nesting material (Ravenea glauca has been slow but steady btw, seems to be a durable plant).

Since we're in the outer avenues and have limited leeward space, strong and salty winds are also a major consideration. 

[tim_brissy_13]

3 hours ago, Rivera said:

Paul,

I have a Chambeyronia macrocarpa var flavopicta (much too young to see if it actually develops this trait as its parent plant did). It was growing around Howea speed in my covered atrium (where even Ptychosperma macarthurii grows), but really slowed to a crawl when I moved it outside into a cool morning sun position. Abysmally slow through even last year's very mild winter.

Though I keep it moist, it needs to go up a pot size and I suspect this has slowed it down further. I'll pot it up with a fresh mix in a bigger pot, but I don't plan to put it in the landscape as I just won't bother with any plants that seem to resent consistently cool weather.

Anyhow, I suspect it was a good idea on your part to just put it in the ground. Can anyone confirm Chambeyronia appreciates some space for its roots, even at a small size (first five years of life)?

Hope it grows well for you.

For me, Chambeyronia put into the ground young outperform those kept in pots. I’m in Melbourne, Australia with similar average temperatures to certain parts of Northern California. 

[Foggy Paul]

Update: We just returned from a trip to SoCal and a visit to Jungle Music. We bought three palms: a 5g Chrysalidocarpus santelucei, a 2g Ravenea glauca and a 2g double Euterpe edulis. (A 1g Pavonia multiflora also came along for the ride.) All of these are probably marginal in our heat starved environment but I’m going to try anyway. The Euterpe has large roots growing out of the bottom of the pot, so it will go into the ground shortly. The others will acclimate over the winter. Wish me luck…

[MoPalm]

On 10/23/2024 at 5:07 PM, Foggy Paul said:

Here it is in the ground, with and without the little shade structure I made for it. Hopefully this will keep it happy for a year or two, after which I hope it won't need it. Number of palm species in the garden is up to a dozen, not much I know but I'm working on it. Thanks again @Darold Petty and @Jim in Los Altos for the inspiration.

I think you can install this shade cloth in the summer, but I doubt if you need it at all in San Francisco, especially now when the sun is very far angel. You have now until summer to acclimate the plant to sun slowly. I have one this size I bought from Jungle Music last July. I slowly acclimated it to full sun in-land now. I burned a few leaves but the new one is fully adopted to full sun. It went through October heat wave (reached 104 I think here) no problem.