1 of 2 Mule palms sudden brown out. Not fusarium wilt.

[sonoranfans]

  On 10/23/2024 at 11:51 PM, t76turbo said:

I only did that AFTER the issue.  Was letting it barely run out and slowly wet the soil.  (because I am on mostly sand) I did not water that way previously.  The water is barely coming out of the hose.  Like a pencil sized steam.  And it goes almost straight down to the ground.  

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1) I have loads of moles, never an issue 15 years.  2) watering in sand isnot very effective with a trickle, sprinklers would be much better as it covers the entire root zone.  IN sand a trickle has low sideways capillary action.  MY yard is all spray sprinklers now, too much root zone for a trickle hose.  Palms really need a lot of water in sand.  I added top mulch and Turface MVP(sintered clay used on golf courses) to help my sandy soil hold onto water longer.   Not sure what winds you saw but I saw 110mph here in ellenton (2 mi south).  Some of my palms leaves did get frazzled leaf damage and are turning brown.   But this did not happen with IAN in 2022 which was  about a 20mph weaker wind.  My money is on the 95% sand, very few palms can tolerate that, especially with our inconsistent rains the last 3 years.  I use sprinklers and run them 3x a week in summer when it hasn't rained.  Even then I add in manual watering as well for palms planted within a couple years as they don't have the larger root systems yet.  I thought that when I moved from Arizona that water would not be a problem in Florida, but with really sandy soils it can be a huge issue when the rain is scarce in the spring and summer hot season.   

[t76turbo]

Thanks for all the input. I do have a regular sprinkler system and this palm as well as the others in my yard all have great coverage by regular sprinklers. I was just adding some extra water allowing it to hit some of the remaining parts of very old fronds at the bottom of the tree and spreading out around the base. But I have added another hose end sprinkler head that covers all around the base of the tree and have been adding extra water using that. Good point and I will make sure I use it plus the regular system going forward. 

[t76turbo]

Sell, looks like the front that was green is now dying. I am very sad that I’m apparently going to lose this palm. I started to trim the old fronds off today. Everything looked normal. 
 

I did see a few little flies around one or two of the cut bases. I don’t see any damage in there and no mushy or rot evidence from what I can tell. I took a few pics of the flies just in case they are something I should do something about either for this and it’s final chance to live or for the other mule or other palms I have. Looked online and didn’t find these flies online. 
 

May just be a common house fly baby  

[Merlyn]

@t76turbo I'm no entomologist, but it looks like a common fly or fruit fly of some sort. 

When you cut off the old fronds, make sure to check the appearance of the cut ends right after the cut.  If they are completely dry/dessicated then they'll just be sort of tan/brown.  If they are still alive and in good shape they will be white.  Random splotches in the cut end can mean an infection like Thielaviopsis, Ganoderma or Fusarium.  You have to look immediately after cutting, because literally within 20-30 seconds it'll start discoloring, even on a healthy frond.  If you end up cutting it down and removing it, check the cut trunk in the upper section and in sections going down towards the base. 

• Trunk discoloration near the top/crown/heart is usually Thielaviopsis.  This isn't considered transmissable through the ground, so replanting a new palm in the same spot is ok.  This happened to a Queen in my yard, the top 5 feet or so were splotchy discolored inside, but totally clean white for the bottom 5-7 feet or so.
• Trunk discoloration near the bottom 1-3 feet is usually Ganoderma.  This is considered ground-transmissable, and planting another palm there may just give the disease to the new palm.
• Trunk discoloration all the way top to bottom (or close to it) but in only one "zone" of the trunk may be Fusarium.  Even if the fronds didn't have the visible one-sided death it's possible that it died from Fusarium.  Mules are 50% Butia and at least partially resistant to Fusarium, so the visible symptoms might be different.  I haven't personally seen one with Fusarium, so I don't really know.

Regardless of the cause of death, I'd cut and bag all the pieces up and collect as much of the sawdust as possible, including the mulch around it and as much of the root ball as is feasible.  Put it all out for pickup.  You don't want to accidentally spread the disease around, whatever it happens to be.  And be sure to sanitize your pruning tools between palms.  I use rubbing alcohol on my loppers/clippers/shears and drop my reciprocating blades in a glass jar of rubbing alcohol between each palm.

I think I'd rule out LB as the cause.  Typically the crown starts looking "stressed" on the lower fronds at about the same time the spear leaf dies or stops growing.  In your case the spear is the last thing to die, which doesn't normally happen with LB.

[Bkue]

  On 10/23/2024 at 7:09 PM, Butch said:

I don’t mean to answer for Bkue, but I used a mix with quite a bit of sand in it… For the weight… Theses things can get top heavy, and the more weight you have at the bottom the better..

 I’m no expert on soil mixes, I used a “planters mix” (and not a potting mix) from a local fertilizer/ landscape supply business, and had them add some extra sand to it…

Butch

 

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Not saying this is the cause, but I know of many plants / palms browning right now after the storm. Didn’t think this was a thing but research is saying plausible. Apparently these storms pick up and dump salt. I thought they were evap only. 🤷. Would think that one wouldnt be overly sensitive but who knows. 

[Bigfish]

Looks like LB to me.  It starts on the lower leaves and moves very quickly to the newer leaves.  Really the only way to know for sure is to send a sample in to your extension agent, which involves drilling holes in the trunk and collecting the trunk matter in a ziplock bag.  I have seen several Mules die from LB here in Gainesville.  Nowhere near as many as Sabal or Phoenix, but it can and does affect Butia and Butiagrus for sure.

[t76turbo]

  On 10/31/2024 at 2:43 AM, Bigfish said:

Looks like LB to me.  It starts on the lower leaves and moves very quickly to the newer leaves.  Really the only way to know for sure is to send a sample in to your extension agent, which involves drilling holes in the trunk and collecting the trunk matter in a ziplock bag.  I have seen several Mules die from LB here in Gainesville.  Nowhere near as many as Sabal or Phoenix, but it can and does affect Butia and Butiagrus for sure.

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Thank you for the recommendation.  I will try to do the testing just in case.  I read the UFL site and it said the death will occur over months.  Mine literally went from beautiful and green to dead (by looks at least) in about 2 weeks.  Does that timeline still track with what you have seen where you are?   Below is a link to what I read.

https://blogs.ifas.ufl.edu/lakeco/2024/07/17/navigating-lethal-bronzing-disease-in-florida-palms/

[Bigfish]

  On 10/31/2024 at 2:53 AM, t76turbo said:

Thank you for the recommendation.  I will try to do the testing just in case.  I read the UFL site and it said the death will occur over months.  Mine literally went from beautiful and green to dead (by looks at least) in about 2 weeks.  Does that timeline still track with what you have seen where you are?   Below is a link to what I read.

https://blogs.ifas.ufl.edu/lakeco/2024/07/17/navigating-lethal-bronzing-disease-in-florida-palms/

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It really varies from palm to palm.  I’ve seen some decline and die in a few months, and I’ve seen others go so quickly it’ll make your head spin.  I saw a Sabal palmetto go from looking healthy to completely dead in a few weeks, although I don’t remember the exact time frame.  
 

Is the spear still growing?

[Merlyn]

  On 10/31/2024 at 3:48 AM, Bigfish said:

It really varies from palm to palm.  I’ve seen some decline and die in a few months, and I’ve seen others go so quickly it’ll make your head spin.  I saw a Sabal palmetto go from looking healthy to completely dead in a few weeks, although I don’t remember the exact time frame. 

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Do you know if the rapid death ones were tested to be LB positive?  Almost all the Sylvestris I've seen have been in the consistent 2-5 month timeframe between first visible symptoms and death.  Some have hung around for over 6 months with no spear and a few half-dead upper fronds.  I had a Queen on the West side of the house that died seemingly overnight, but when I cut down the trunk it had Thielaviopsis-style discoloration in the upper 3-5 feet of trunk.  I'm just wondering if it was confirmed LB that killed the Sabal that fast, or if it could have been something else like Palmetto weevils, Thielaviopsis or Ganoderma.

[Bigfish]

  On 11/4/2024 at 2:40 PM, Merlyn said:

Do you know if the rapid death ones were tested to be LB positive?  Almost all the Sylvestris I've seen have been in the consistent 2-5 month timeframe between first visible symptoms and death.  Some have hung around for over 6 months with no spear and a few half-dead upper fronds.  I had a Queen on the West side of the house that died seemingly overnight, but when I cut down the trunk it had Thielaviopsis-style discoloration in the upper 3-5 feet of trunk.  I'm just wondering if it was confirmed LB that killed the Sabal that fast, or if it could have been something else like Palmetto weevils, Thielaviopsis or Ganoderma.

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I don’t have any confirmation of it, and my time frame could be off, honestly.  I know it was quick though.  I’m almost positive that it was LB just from seeing dozens of palms succumb to this disease locally.  Definitely not palm weevils though, as that damage starts from the spear first.  LB always starts with the lower leaves first and progresses upward.  I think how quickly it progresses could depend on the weather and time of year, but that’s just more guessing.  It was at a hotel that I used to drive past several times a week, so I saw it quite frequently.

The guy who researches LB for a living in Florida is Brian Bahder, and he recently told me that he has heard anecdotal reports of imidacloprid curing the disease…but I never followed up with him about that and he said he still had to follow up on those reports.  Nevertheless, he told me that if he had palms in his yard anywhere that LB was active, he would be treating them twice per year with imidacloprid.  

[t76turbo]

I put a call into Brian today to talk about my situation and maybe get testing done.  I may end up doing the injections as a preventative measure to the other 5 palms in my yard just in case. Hopefully he will call me back soon.

 

[Merlyn]

@Bigfish I guess control or "cure" of the disease probably depends on whether the palm has some innate defense mechanism:

1. Palm has no resistance to phytoplasma - once infected it would spread uncontrollably and be 100% fatal.
2. Palm has some biological or chemical reistance.  Mortality depends on the degree of infection and the degree of resistance.

Option 2 seems the most likely, in my observation.  There was a cluster of Sylvestris on 417.  8 were visibly infected around 2/21 through 6/22, all but one were basically dead by the summer of 2023.  One survived symptom-free until about a month ago, but is now fairly quickly dying.  Though I have no testing results, they look like all the other Sylvestris dying of LB.  I have to believe that all have been chomped on by the same group of leafhoppers.  So if a palm can be resistant, then it stands to reason that limiting the amount of infective matrial (number and duration of chomping) might allow a palm to recover.  It just depends on if there is any resistance to death once the palm is infected...