TOP 10 Most Popular Hardy Palms (THE LIST)

[sonoranfans]

On 11/23/2024 at 11:51 PM, jwitt said:

Some of the palm temperatures seem off from what is known for lethality. 

CIDP for example. 20f

yeah CIDP is also more cold tolerant than the mexican fan palm.  California fan palms(washingtonia Filifera) have survived long term in Las vegas nevada to 10F.  Some may die at 10 F.   Cold tolerance is dependent on the type of weather(desert, mediterranean, humid subtropical).  Desert palms like the california fan palm are more cold tolerant in the desert where they evolved.  They dont like wet roots in winter.  Most palms are more cold tolerant in the desert as overnight cold fades rapidly with the sun.   Duration of cold we have discuss several times.  Ive seen roystonea regia survive 18Fj totally defoliated but survived to grow back its crown.  That same day it was 18F it was 55F by noon.  I think the order is good except for the DCIDP which should be good to 15F and filifera to 12-14F. 

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, CascadiaPalms said:

I really think the continuous stretches of damp, cloudy, drizzle, and cold rain from November to February....really do a factor. 

 

The problem with this is that you are literally describing London and the UK here, not just Portland. Do you think London is dry and warm in winter? No, it's usually pouring with rain, very cloudy, with hardly any sun due to such short days at 51N and storms that roll in off the Atlantic and there's a lot of cool-wet weather for months on end. There are often a few cold blasts mixed in as well, much like Portland. Ave max and min are almost identical for both cities in winter. Temperatures are only very marginally warmer in London on average during winter due to the sheer size of the UHI.

But it really isn't much different and that is a fact. There is no logical reason why CIDP's would thrive in London, but have zero success in Portland. Heck there are even CIDP's in coastal parts of northern England that are definitely a bit cooler and wetter than Portland in winter! So the argument that Portland is too cool/wet in winter can be dismissed. The rain isn't the problem in a cool winter climate, especially with a warm/dry summer. It's either going to be the extent of the freezes, when they do happen, or the water table there (unlikely) or maybe something to do with the soil as well.

[CascadiaPalms]

37 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

yeah CIDP is also more cold tolerant than the mexican fan palm.  California fan palms(washingtonia Filifera) have survived long term in Las vegas nevada to 10F.  Some may die at 10 F.   Cold tolerance is dependent on the type of weather(desert, mediterranean, humid subtropical).  Desert palms like the california fan palm are more cold tolerant in the desert where they evolved.  They dont like wet roots in winter.  Most palms are more cold tolerant in the desert as overnight cold fades rapidly with the sun.   Duration of cold we have discuss several times.  Ive seen roystonea regia survive 18Fj totally defoliated but survived to grow back its crown.  That same day it was 18F it was 55F by noon.  I think the order is good except for the DCIDP which should be good to 15F and filifera to 12-14F. 

I agree.  Local weather conditions can either support a lower cold hardy temperature or not.  Especially if a record cold night is followed by a day time temp that is respectable and allowing of the palm to rebound.  I think moisture needs to always be considered FWIW.  I couldn't imagine taking that same test to a wet, chilly and damp area.  Hence why filifera, robusta, and CIDP are very questionable here in Portland.  Our winter weather chokes the palms with the above description.  We usually get one cold snap a year, but it's preceded by a wet and soggy event.  So now the ambient temp of the palm goes down around 20-25F and with a very moist soil that is not allowed to dry out.  Filifera, robusta, and CIDP are dry climate palms...on the flipside T. fortunei actually perfer rain and damp-ish soil.  Hence why they THRIVE like weeds here in PNW.  If I wore a tin-foiled hat and had no idea where fortunei is native, I would be convinced otherwise it would be the PNW.  They just do that phenomenal here.  It is literally and will always be the palm tree for Western Cascadia.

 

To solve this, I will next make a temperature survival zone video....😄

[UK_Palms]

44 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

yeah CIDP is also more cold tolerant than the mexican fan palm.  California fan palms(washingtonia Filifera) have survived long term in Las vegas nevada to 10F.  Some may die at 10 F.   Cold tolerance is dependent on the type of weather(desert, mediterranean, humid subtropical).  Desert palms like the california fan palm are more cold tolerant in the desert where they evolved.  They dont like wet roots in winter.  Most palms are more cold tolerant in the desert as overnight cold fades rapidly with the sun.   Duration of cold we have discuss several times.  Ive seen roystonea regia survive 18Fj totally defoliated but survived to grow back its crown.  That same day it was 18F it was 55F by noon.  I think the order is good except for the DCIDP which should be good to 15F and filifera to 12-14F. 

You should see my stump of a CIDP growing here. Sure, it comes back after each freeze, but it does not grow properly, has a tiny crown and will never look good or put on any size for me. The 2022/23 winter was the worst here since the 2010/11 event and I had a few nights go down to about 17F here in the countryside with no UHI, about 30 miles southwest of London.

I put a protective cover over my CIDP for the -8C / 17F nights and it still got completely defoliated with about 48 hours below freezing. All the fronds went crispy and the spear pulled right out come spring. In fact it hasn't fully grown out of that damage after 2 summers. The fronds are still quite small compared to when I planted it and it looks crap. I might rip it out in the spring. We'll see how it fares after this winter.

For small specimens in a cool/wet winter climate, 22-23F will almost certainly damage them and 20F will likely result in a defoliation. Although 25F will also defoliate smaller ones if the temperature doesn't really go above freezing for a week. Much bigger ones are looking at damage around 19-20F in a cool/wet climate and defoliation at around 17F. This isn't New Mexico where they may take a night of 15F with little to no damage whatsoever and probably escape total defoliation even from an odd 10F night during a dry freeze with strong solar heating/radiation the next day. Unfortunately I don't get that here, or in the PNW.

But you can get around the issues with coastal proximity or strong UHI influence. Then you grow them on to a big enough size that they can actually survive a freak, once a decade freeze event like we had in 2010 and 2018. Those two events even would have knocked out smaller ones across London and parts of the south coast. More so due to the cold/freeze duration than the absolute minimums, which was definitely the case in 2010. The freeze duration is much of an issue as the absolute minimum.

[jwitt]

Filifera and "wet roots" is not quite correct.

They naturally grow in swamps. In fact, the Corrales filifera that survived back to back nights of -11f(2/2011) unprotected sit in a water table of less than 5 feet.  They also saw zero again 12/2011. 

 

[jwitt]

9 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

You should see my stump of a CIDP growing here. Sure, it comes back after each freeze, but it does not grow properly, has a tiny crown and will never look good or put on any size for me. The 2022/23 winter was the worst here since the 2010/11 event and I had a few nights go down to about 17F here in the countryside with no UHI, about 30 miles southwest of London.

I put a protective cover over my CIDP for the -8C / 17F nights and it still got completely defoliated with about 48 hours below freezing. All the fronds went crispy and the spear pulled right out come spring. In fact it hasn't fully grown out of that damage after 2 summers. The fronds are still quite small compared to when I planted it and it looks crap. I might rip it out in the spring. We'll see how it fares after this winter.

For small sp winter climate, 22-23F will almost certainly damage them and 20F will likely result in a defoliation. Although 25F will also defoliate smaller ones if the temperature doesn't really go above freezing for a week. Much bigger ones are looking at damage around 19-20F in a cool/wet climate and defoliation at around 17F. This isn't New Mexico where they may take a night of 15F with little to no damage whatsoever and probably escape total defoliation even from an odd 10F night during a dry freeze with strong solar heating/radiation the next day. Unfortunately I don't get that here, or in the PNW.

But you can get around the issues with coastal proximity or strong UHI influence. Then you grow them on to a big enough size that they can actually survive a freak, once a decade freeze event like we had in 2010 and 2018. Those two events even would have knocked out smaller ones across London and parts of the south coast. More so due to the cold/freeze duration than the absolute minimums, which was definitely the case in 2010. The freeze duration is much of an issue as the absolute minimum.

 So we should judge the hardiness of a palm species on how they do in the city of London. Got it. 

Nevermind the many regions, multitude of cities, and different storms that beg to differ.

Or is it how they do in Portland?

[jwitt]

Or should we maybe look at Charleston where these seem to still be going after 10f

[UK_Palms]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

 So we should judge the hardiness of a palm species on how they do in the city of London. Got it. 

Nevermind the many regions, multitude of cities, and different storms that beg to differ.

Or is it how they do in Portland?

Firstly, I don’t live in London. I am pretty much zone 8b here as I am out in the sticks so to speak. I have zero UHI and I am surrounded by fields and forests and in a bit of a frost pocket. Central London is a solid zone 9b, so a full 2 hardiness zones higher than my location. I went down to 11F in February 2018 when central London only had 23F.

And yes it is relevant to talk about cool/wet winter locations, especially further north, since the limit for damage and lethality is going to be a lot less. Obviously CIDP’s have come back from -10F in New Mexico and maybe -5F in Texas. That wouldn’t be the case in Chicago, or NYC. It wouldn’t be the case in the PNW or England either. So hardiness is all very relative.

Portland hasn’t seen temperatures anywhere near as cold as Dallas did back in 2021, yet there are CIDP’s surviving in Dallas but not in Portland. My own observations show small CIDP getting damaged at 22F here, whereas they don’t really take damage until 15F in dry, sunny, arid climates with intermittent warmth in winter i.e. New Mexico & Arizona. The same temperatures and duration will not have the same effect in higher latitudes.

Likewise 18F will defoliate them here but it will probably take about 10-12F in Alamogordo. If you compared the damage after a 3 day freeze that went down to 11F like I had in 2028, I guarantee my CIDP will look a darn site worse a week later compared to one in Alamogordo. Daytime solar radiation being the biggest factor. Dryness and low water table being the next main factors. All relevant in the hardiness discussion.

[jwitt]

@UK_PalmsIt is ok. You don't have to lie about leaf hardiness. Your claim is false and misleading.

"Likewise 18F will defoliate them here but it will probably take about 10-12F in Alamogordo."

Do you not realize the entire upper gulf coast of the US has seen single digits and even zero all with prime examples of old CIDP survivors? 

I am sorry they can't grow in NYC, Chicago, Portland, or here. That does not change the species hardiness.  

A palm planted for less than three years(unestablished) should never be used for determining the species lethality hardiness. That is pure foolishness. 

 

[UK_Palms]

The size of this thing in Weston-Super-Mare on the north coast of Somerset in England. This thing gets just as much winter rain as Portland does and slightly cooler winter temperatures on average. So a bit more wet-cold overall. A lot less sun as well.

However I doubt it is ever really subjected to any kind of proper hard freeze during major events. You can see 15 years of growth on the street view from 2009, just before the infamous freeze of 2010/11, which appeared to stunt it back then.

I would guesstimate a low of 18F in December 2010, but probably nothing colder than 21-22F since then in Feb 2018 and Dec 2022. Pretty sure I could pull up some 10 inch winter rainfall months in recent years for this area. So very wet winters nowadays there. 

 

CIDP do not appear to be present in any areas over here that got colder than about -8C / 17F during the 2010 and 2018 events. At least when they were smaller back then anyway. I don't doubt that some of these big unit CIDP's over here nowadays would take a record breaking freeze at their size today. But small ones likely kicked the bucket from -7C / 19F back in 2010 in places. Google street view supports this in certain areas that reached that lethality range mentioned, at least for smaller specimens in cool/wet winter zones. The smaller ones in areas that got that cold died.

Also on a side note, does anyone know what the status is with that Tofino CIDP in BC? Is it still going and does it even grow there?

[jwitt]

This is a discussion about a specific species of cold hardy palms(CIDP), not comparing 2 places halfway around the world with near identical precipitation. One being on the coast and the other inland with a mountain range between it and the ocean. 

According to the video lethality temperature, your palm example should be dead. 

So no 40-50 year old CIDP's in London?

[UK_Palms]

7 hours ago, jwitt said:

This is a discussion about a specific species of cold hardy palms(CIDP), not comparing 2 places halfway around the world with near identical precipitation. One being on the coast and the other inland with a mountain range between it and the ocean. 

According to the video lethality temperature, your palm example should be dead. 

So no 40-50 year old CIDP's in London?

Yes and what I am mentioning is clearly relevant to the hardiness discussion. Saying that CIDP are hardy down to 0F to -10F in certain climates is not applicable to many other places like northwest Europe or the PNW. Even in areas of coastal Oregon where they can survive and grow, they will not come back from 0F and colder (if it ever got that cold), like they can in New Mexico or even Texas. It is important to stress this when discussing hardiness. CIDP and palms in general are hardier in certain climates that are drier and sunnier, and that is that.

Also looking at Charleston, South Carolina (lat 32) the record lows are either 10F or 6F depending on the source. So I suspect those CIDP’s were located in downtown and had some UHI protection, as well as already being a fairly big size when the major freeze hit, which helped them survive. I doubt they had anything colder than 6-10F. Plus they would have had intermittent winter warmth as well at that latitude and higher levels of sun, unlike in the PNW or northwest Europe. It is important to be transparent about this stuff. One boot does not fit all clearly. 

My previous post provided rather compelling evidence for CIDP hardiness in cool/wet winter climates. I have plenty of case studies to use as a reference. Regarding 50-60 year old CIDP’s on the UK mainland, they were either not being planted back then, or smaller ones were getting knocked out before they reached a big enough size to survive a hard freeze back then (unlike nowadays). Despite this there is at least one 70 year old specimen in Torquay that was one of the first planted on the mainland. The biggest one in London (River Gardens, Fulham) also survived the coldest temps on record in 1987. So they are clearly long term now that they have actually been planted properly and have got to decent sizes. And again, that is that fella.

[Banana Belt]

On 11/22/2024 at 10:33 PM, CascadiaPalms said:

Okay, I actually did extensive research into this....I think I have nailed it

You asked a trick question and the answer is also very tricky which your research required extensive.  So many variables besides Temperature such as wind, moisture and of course health of the palm all of which you know.  But this video and others you have done are good guides for putting a palm in the ground.  I have put palms in the ground that should have survived a cold spell but did not, and some that should not but did survive.  Your list is a good guide and should be used but luck will determine survival or not especially in climes of extraordinary events. 

 

[sonoranfans]

15 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

You should see my stump of a CIDP growing here. Sure, it comes back after each freeze, but it does not grow properly, has a tiny crown and will never look good or put on any size for me. The 2022/23 winter was the worst here since the 2010/11 event and I had a few nights go down to about 17F here in the countryside with no UHI, about 30 miles southwest of London.

I put a protective cover over my CIDP for the -8C / 17F nights and it still got completely defoliated with about 48 hours below freezing. All the fronds went crispy and the spear pulled right out come spring. In fact it hasn't fully grown out of that damage after 2 summers. The fronds are still quite small compared to when I planted it and it looks crap. I might rip it out in the spring. We'll see how it fares after this winter.

For small specimens in a cool/wet winter climate, 22-23F will almost certainly damage them and 20F will likely result in a defoliation. Although 25F will also defoliate smaller ones if the temperature doesn't really go above freezing for a week. Much bigger ones are looking at damage around 19-20F in a cool/wet climate and defoliation at around 17F. This isn't New Mexico where they may take a night of 15F with little to no damage whatsoever and probably escape total defoliation even from an odd 10F night during a dry freeze with strong solar heating/radiation the next day. Unfortunately I don't get that here, or in the PNW.

But you can get around the issues with coastal proximity or strong UHI influence. Then you grow them on to a big enough size that they can actually survive a freak, once a decade freeze event like we had in 2010 and 2018. Those two events even would have knocked out smaller ones across London and parts of the south coast. More so due to the cold/freeze duration than the absolute minimums, which was definitely the case in 2010. The freeze duration is much of an issue as the absolute minimum.

UK is one of those areas with longer cold spells so cold tolerance will be less.  CIDP wont survive 12-14 in florida because it stays cold longer than in the drier climes.  The critical part of survival is bud temperature which will be notably warmer than the air for a number of hours as temps drop.   This is why Royals can survive the short temps in the desert.   Typical daytime ijnvolves a 30-40 degree F warmup.  The thicker the bud, the slower it cools.  The desert southwest and its dry climate cool and warm rapidly overnight and the next day, so the bud never gets to air temperature because air temp rises before the bud cools off to air temp.  We know that cold tolerance of most palms is better in the southwest due to the short duration of the cold in dry climates.  This is why cold tolerance numbers are only useful in local conditions.  In Oregon everything will have less cold tolerance than in inland californmia or arizona.  When arizona dropped to 18F, the CIDP's I saw had minimal visible damage while the mexican fan palms lost half their foliage.   Some palms hate wet roots in cool weather, they are susceptible to root rot(fungal), so I think than many desert palms will have less cold tolerance survival in Oregon.  If its wet roots that kill a palm is that really a cold tolerance issue?   

[CascadiaPalms]

3 hours ago, Banana Belt said:

You asked a trick question and the answer is also very tricky which your research required extensive.  So many variables besides Temperature such as wind, moisture and of course health of the palm all of which you know.  But this video and others you have done are good guides for putting a palm in the ground.  I have put palms in the ground that should have survived a cold spell but did not, and some that should not but did survive.  Your list is a good guide and should be used but luck will determine survival or not especially in climes of extraordinary events. 

 

Boom.  This.

Temperature is just one factor to sway the results that can determine the outcome.

[Xenon]

57 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

 CIDP wont survive 12-14 in florida 

All of the pre-1980s CIDP in North Florida/Georgia and along the Gulf Coast in Alabama and Mississippi survived mid-low single digits. 

[jwitt]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

All of the pre-1980s CIDP in North Florida/Georgia and along the Gulf Coast in Alabama and Mississippi survived mid-low single digits. 

Weird!

Must be dry there.

[Chester B]

In the PNW when the rainy season starts, everything gets wet and stays wet for 5 or 6 months.  Rarely do things every dry out, the grass is always wet, the soil is muddy, literally everything you touch is either wet or damp.  There are a ton of products sold to kill moss because it grows on everything, and I mean literally everything.  I've never been anywhere where moss grows on paved roads.  Around the corners you see it mostly where tires do not normally drive over.  CIDP's do not survive in Portland, and like I said it's not for lack of trying.  Salem which is 45 minutes south of Portland, is marginally drier and does not get the outflow winds, but they get colder temps in winter due to the position in the valley.  Washingtonia and CIDP's can hang on a few years there provided there isn't a particularly cold winter.  I don't see the point in rehashing that they should survive, the fact is they don't.  It doesn't matter how badly we want or hope that they'll make it, the plants will tell you if its suitable for them.  It just goes to show that even in very similar climates you may not get the same results due to a factor or factors that we may be unable to determine.

[jwitt]

1 minute ago, Chester B said:

In the PNW when the rainy season starts, everything gets wet and stays wet for 5 or 6 months.  Rarely do things every dry out, the grass is always wet, the soil is muddy, literally everything you touch is either wet or damp.  There are a ton of products sold to kill moss because it grows on everything, and I mean literally everything.  I've never been anywhere where moss grows on paved roads.  Around the corners you see it mostly where tires do not normally drive over.  CIDP's do not survive in Portland, and like I said it's not for lack of trying.  Salem which is 45 minutes south of Portland, is marginally drier and does not get the outflow winds, but they get colder temps in winter due to the position in the valley.  Washingtonia and CIDP's can hang on a few years there provided there isn't a particularly cold winter.  I don't see the point in rehashing that they should survive, the fact is they don't.  It doesn't matter how badly we want or hope that they'll make it, the plants will tell you if its suitable for them.  It just goes to show that even in very similar climates you may not get the same results due to a factor or factors that we may be unable to determine.

So the PNW determines a palm species cold hardiness lethality temperature?

So the CIDPs grown in the PNW really only exist along the southern Oregon coast, where all-time lows are not much below 20f. 

Multiple events in multiple regions in multiple years prove the cold hardiness lethality temperatures listed in the video as false. Regardless what happens in Portland or Eugene with no long-term CIDP's. 

That is exactly like Phoenix choosing the lethality temperature of a coconut. Foolishness. 

[jwitt]

Is the video only meant for PNW'ers and that sort of climate?

If so, it should be stated as such.

[UK_Palms]

10 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Weird!

Must be dry there.

You can chill on the sarcasm. Let’s keep things rational. Everyone’s own experiences of growing in their own environments are all relevant to the discussion and add valuable information regarding hardiness to draw up conclusions, depending on location. There is no need to be condescending about it.

As I previously mentioned, dryness is only one of the factors. Solar radiation during the daytime and intermittent warmth either side of the freeze are the other two factors that will impact hardiness and survivability. All 3 of those factors are pretty much absent once you go behind 40N in winter. Those things will impact the ability of a palm to survive certain temperatures i.e. single digits F, and come back from particularly hard freezes, which is why they come back in New Mexico, Texas, Florida etc. All of these places are below 40N.

So hardiness really does vary quite a bit depending on latitude and how dry the location is. Total snow/ice load also may also be an issue, which could be an explanation as to why CIDP’s and Washies struggle so much in the PNW. Over here a lot of the freezes are quite dry and we don’t have much snow at all. So less wet/cold and damage to the growing points maybe?

[Chester B]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

So the PNW determines a palm species cold hardiness lethality temperature?

No, not at all.  I was just referring to how seemingly similar winter climates like the UK and the PNW still aren't the same.  And wanted to put to bed that just because the UK CIDP's can survive in the UK doesn't mean they will in most of Oregon.

Cold hardiness of a palm is so variable based on climate., the conditions up to and immediately after the cold event, and the nature of the cold event itself  I don't like saying "Palm X is hardy to XX degrees".  There are some generalities to say these palms tend to the be the hardiest, but the top 3 or 5 palms that are hardiest to my area do not apply to everyone else.  

 

[CascadiaPalms]

I think some people have brought up some great examples with their own experiences.  If anything, hardiness is just a "baseline" gauge.  We've seen though that factors beyond just temperature can manipulate local weather conditions.  It's very possible that palms can extend (or lessen) their hardiness temperature based upon certain elements.  Just on my property alone (I have roughly .25 acre), I have four weather instruments (very precise FWIW) in different parts of the property.  The difference in data is stunning.  Some instruments are 5-10 degrees different and humidity is 10%-15% different.  Your property can almost be a microclimate.  These kind of conditions can either help/hinder plants and palms especially. 

[UK_Palms]

2 hours ago, jwitt said:

So the PNW determines a palm species cold hardiness lethality temperature?

Well yes it does to an extent... at least for those growing it in that particular area, or similar areas. How hardy CIDP is in New Mexico or Florida is completely irrelevant to someone in the PNW, or for me here. Again it's all relative.

Leaf hardiness and lethality vary depending on how dry a climate is, how much solar radiation it gets to mitigate damage and how much intermittent warmth exists either side of a freeze event to help with recovery. As I have previously said, an ultimate low of say 21F but having 2 weeks below freezing in the PNW or somewhere in northwest Europe is going to be enough to kill small CIDP and Washingtonia. Regardless of how bud hardy they are in drier climates with higher levels of solar output and more warmth either side of any freeze. That becomes irrelevant in wetter climates, with less sunshine and less warmth following a freeze.

 

16 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

 

I notice Washingtonia also growing in that area of Weston-Super-Mare near the border with Wales. This one just down the road from that CIDP I posted and it looks quite Filifera-ish, although probably a hybrid. It also needs a tidy up, but at least a skirt is forming!

 

Again the northeast coast of Somerset is an equally cool/wet winter area compared to Portland with temperatures that may be a bit cooler than Portland during winter on average. And some winters it will definitely be wetter there. So again the question is asked, why are they growing in these places over here, but not in say Portland?

It has to be the freeze events every few years being worse over there, with their ultimate lows being worse and much more snow/ice that f*cks up the growing points for them. I cannot think of what else it can be. But clearly CIDP and Washingtonia can grow well in a cool/wet 9a in coastal England, but they can't grow in a similarly cool/wet 9a in the PNW.

Also if hardiness can vary so much in similar wet-cool winter climates, it goes to show just how much the overall hardiness factor can vary altogether between cool/wet and mild/warm/dry climates. Hardiness cannot be placed into one category for any given palm. There are so many variables that influence the hardiness of that climate or location.

[jwitt]

Sorry. Got to disagree here and leave it at that.

Concerning CIDP, the data from multiple events, over different decades, in multiple regions say other than what is stated in the video.  Thousands upon thousands of palms say otherwise. 

Don't judge a saguaro hardiness on how well it does in Juneau! Bad data in, bad data out. 

Maybe 20f is a lethal temperature for CIDP's in Portland and London.  Thousands upon thousands of CIDP say otherwise. 

I'll stay with the data.  

Maybe the header should be changed to PNW or greater than 40° north and not be misleading like:

TOP 10 Most Popular Hardy Palms (THE LIST)

[jwitt]

No logical reason!

"There is no logical reason why CIDP's would thrive in London, but have zero success in Portland. Heck there are even CIDP's in coastal parts of northern England that are definitely a bit cooler and wetter than Portland in winter! So the argument that Portland is too cool/wet in winter can be dismissed. The rain isn't the problem in a cool winter climate, especially with a warm/dry summer. It's either going to be the extent of the freezes, when they do happen, or the water table there (unlikely) or maybe something to do with the soil as well."

[CascadiaPalms]

24 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Sorry. Got to disagree here and leave it at that.

Concerning CIDP, the data from multiple events, over different decades, in multiple regions say other than what is stated in the video.  Thousands upon thousands of palms say otherwise. 

Don't judge a saguaro hardiness on how well it does in Juneau! Bad data in, bad data out. 

Maybe 20f is a lethal temperature for CIDP's in Portland and London.  Thousands upon thousands of CIDP say otherwise. 

I'll stay with the data.  

Maybe the header should be changed to PNW or greater than 40° north and not be misleading like:

TOP 10 Most Popular Hardy Palms (THE LIST)

a hardiness temperature is just a "gauge"...almost a litmus test point.  By definition it means, the ability to endure difficult conditions.  It's the beginning stage to test the survivability of a palm.  Suggesting that the palm will instantly drop dead and die once it hits "20F" is just crazy.  No one is saying that.  I looked at the data just a bit ago that Chester mentioned.  It's literally all over the place.  Looked at data from FL to TX...some mature trees died in the low 20s while others were kicking just fine in the single digits but also seemed to take significant frond damage.  In every scenario by definition, that palm was tested with its survivability.  The 20F means that the palm is entering the stage where it becomes vulnerable.  If I took 20 random humans with similar demographics off the street, and told them all to immediately run five straight miles without stopping, not only will you get various performance results, but by the end (if someone does finish!) they are all probably going to be damn tired and vulnerable to some degree.  But one thing remains constant, the five miles was a equal litmus test for everyone.  What about running when humidity is higher vs lower?  It's the same task, but the conditions are now different.  I don't see why it wouldn't be the same with palms.  I believe there is a "point" aka hardiness temperature, where specific palms species begin to be vulnerable.  So, with it already being in the vulnerability zone... past, present and future local weather/soil conditions will also play a major part in its ability to pass that test.  Some will and some will not.

[jwitt]

So for a CIDP, frond lethality and palm lethality are nearly the same by your data(about 20f).  Got it. 

I'm just saying there is a lot of data suggesting otherwise on lethality.   A lot. Complete with photographic evidence. 

And some people do report a palm dead if all the palms are fried

Yes I understand climate, soil, etc play an important role. 

Bet you cannot point to a 20f or colder event where the majority of CIDP were killed. 

Photographic evidence does exist of the opposite though. Majority CIDP survival below 20f.  In all kinds of climates and events. 

Anyways thanks for the heads up and now pointing to a "vulnerability" temperature and not lethality.  Although I asked specifically about this early on.   Glad you pointed this out as not to mislead others. 

Plenty of 20f events and colder where these are grown. Photographic evidence strongly suggests a lower lethality temperature overall. 

Can you point to any event that wiped out a majority of CIDP's 20f or below? 

Easy with robusta and aome other palms, not really with CIDP that I am aware of. 

The "report" show a majority ( >80%) at ALL temperatures all the way down to -5f.  Again, data. 

 

 

 

 

[UK_Palms]

50 minutes ago, jwitt said:

Can you point to any event that wiped out a majority of CIDP's 20f or below? 

 

Did you not listen to what Chester said earlier? CIDP's are knocked out in Portland by winters with 20-25F minimums even, way before they are capable of attaining any kind of proper size to maybe help them deal with the winter climate there. Over here, small ones are knocked out by 15-20F, or higher even. My small CIDP has even burned at 23F! So the lethality is clearly much, much higher in cooler and wetter climates.

The maximum possible bud hardiness of lets say -15F (in favourable climates that are dry, sunny and warm) is not applicable to the majority of us and certainly not any of us above 35N latitude. I don't understand what part of that you are having difficulty in understanding man. I have plenty of case studies in the UK for what I claim and the PNW guys have their own case studies. This is factual evidence.

Talking about 0F bud hardiness (never mind -15F bud hardiness) is irrelevant for most of us, except for those living in the most favourable areas that may get a freak freeze in a dry, arid climate, which is then followed by strong daytime sun and a strong temperature rebound to say 70's or 80's F a week or so later. In case you haven't noticed, this is the 'cold hardy palms' section and a lot of us don't live in New Mexico, Arizona, Texas or Florida. Like seriously man.

So it is clearly important to differentiate between what temperatures do what degree of damage, in each of our locations/climates, since it clearly varies quite a bit. AND THAT IS THAT! It is much bette to put together a comprehensive hardiness assessment based on various locations and climates, rather than use one broad assessment of their maximum temperature survival, which isn't even applicable to the majority of us. Your comments also come off arrogant and condescending, especially to the OP.

[Banana Belt]

4 hours ago, Chester B said:

climates like the UK and the PNW still aren't the same

What you said is so true, especially how moss grows on roads around Porltland.  Near Clackamas on paved roads in canyons that never see sunlight moss is the pavement nearly year around.  I just wonder if hours of sunlight is factor for survival of CIDP's.  Here in Brookings, Oregon, even in winter where we can get 60 inches of rain in 2 months and much more rain than Portland there is always a day when its sunny, whereas in the Willamette Valley and Portland there can be months when the sun never shines.  I believe CIDP's can grow along the entire Oregon Coast where the sun can sometimes shine.

Citrus are very particular about "hours of sunshine" and also "hours of temperature above 60".  Temperatures along the coastal rivers in southwest Oregon can at night get very cold, and yet some Citrus survive so long as they get enough sunshine during the day.  Perhaps Palms react in similar ways, just thinking.

[Xenon]

2 hours ago, CascadiaPalms said:

 Looked at data from FL to TX...some mature trees died in the low 20s while others were kicking just fine in the single digits but also seemed to take significant frond damage.  In every scenario by definition, that palm was tested with its survivability.  

Never seen or heard of CIDP in the Deep American South that died from low 20s. There is next to zero mortality rate for true CIDP in average to good health at 20F or even 15F (I'd argue a few degrees lower). 

Lethal bronzing kills CIDP,  not the cold. 

[CascadiaPalms]

1 hour ago, jwitt said:

So for a CIDP, frond lethality and palm lethality are nearly the same by your data(about 20f).  Got it. 

I'm just saying there is a lot of data suggesting otherwise on lethality.   A lot. Complete with photographic evidence. 

And some people do report a palm dead if all the palms are fried

Yes I understand climate, soil, etc play an important role. 

Bet you cannot point to a 20f or colder event where the majority of CIDP were killed. 

Photographic evidence does exist of the opposite though. Majority CIDP survival below 20f.  In all kinds of climates and events. 

Anyways thanks for the heads up and now pointing to a "vulnerability" temperature and not lethality.  Although I asked specifically about this early on.   Glad you pointed this out as not to mislead others. 

Plenty of 20f events and colder where these are grown. Photographic evidence strongly suggests a lower lethality temperature overall. 

Can you point to any event that wiped out a majority of CIDP's 20f or below? 

Easy with robusta and aome other palms, not really with CIDP that I am aware of. 

The "report" show a majority ( >80%) at ALL temperatures all the way down to -5f.  Again, data. 

 

 

 

 

I hear what you are saying, I really do.  But being vulnerable can be lethal.  It's not an "all but none" take here.  Therefore, CIDP enter the "lethal" zone at 20F  Does it mean all will die?  Absolutely not.  Have some died?  Yes.  We'll never know the exact "lethal" temperature for CIDP, but the fact that many still have died at the temp (or even higher)...you can't ignore that.  Just because a "decent" portion of them survive, doesn't mean we write off the others.  
As far as I know, no Douglas Fir trees have died at 20f.  Therefore, it's not the lethal zone.  CIDP have.  I certainly wouldn't feel "relaxed" with an unprotected CIDP at 20F, a Douglas Fir...not even the slightest thought.

[jwitt]

22 minutes ago, CascadiaPalms said:

I hear what you are saying, I really do.  But being vulnerable can be lethal.  It's not an "all but none" take here.  Therefore, CIDP enter the "lethal" zone at 20F  Does it mean all will die?  Absolutely not.  Have some died?  Yes.  We'll never know the exact "lethal" temperature for CIDP, but the fact that many still have died at the temp (or even higher)...you can't ignore that.  Just because a "decent" portion of them survive, doesn't mean we write off the others.  
As far as I know, no Douglas Fir trees have died at 20f.  Therefore, it's not the lethal zone.  CIDP have.  I certainly wouldn't feel "relaxed" with an unprotected CIDP at 20F, a Douglas Fir...not even the slightest thought.

1. I suggest you not use vulnerable palms to establish "your" lethal limits. 

Goes back to the saguaro in Juneau thing. 

The data suggests otherwise concerning this species.  

I agree @Banana Beltthat maybe it is sunlight, or a combination of things. Has an adult version of the palm ever been tried? 

Speaking to CIDP's. There are not many areas outside parts of the US that they are growing that are also susceptible to zero and below weather. That said, they have not been growing in these areas for very long(little over 100 years at the most).  But yet....survive they do. 

I've had filifera die with nothing below 50f. Had absolutely nothing to do with their cold hardiness. 

[jwitt]

@CascadiaPalms I like your video.  Do not misunderstand that.  

I just question the temperature listed with the palms.  Also the popular aspect, but each person has their own likes when it comes to palms. 

You list trachycarpus with a temperature of zero.  Can you enlighten where this data exists? Is there a place that a majority of these palms survived this temperature? Serious. 

I can do it with CIDP,  but not trachies. There always seem to be a somewhat high mortality with trachies at that temperature.  

Or is zero just the vulnerable zone?

[Banana Belt]

37 minutes ago, jwitt said:

I've had filifera die with nothing below 50f. Had absolutely nothing to do with their cold hardiness. 

I am no expert and the knowledge I have is what I learned from Palms I have grown.  From what I have read, and correct me if I am wrong, Palms are monocots that are continously growing and have no dormancy periods like Apples or conifers.  If that be true is it possible that Palms need whatever it is to continously grow and if they are starved of those necessities they whither and die.  Could it not be that light or sunlight is as much a factor for survival of a palm as other factors just so long as the Palm can continue to grow?

[Xenon]

1 hour ago, CascadiaPalms said:

 I certainly wouldn't feel "relaxed" with an unprotected CIDP at 20F

I'd be completely relaxed at 20F here, not a care or doubt in the world 😆 

I do like the video editing and hype soundtrack 😎

[jwitt]

37 minutes ago, Banana Belt said:

I am no expert and the knowledge I have is what I learned from Palms I have grown.  From what I have read, and correct me if I am wrong, Palms are monocots that are continously growing and have no dormancy periods like Apples or conifers.  If that be true is it possible that Palms need whatever it is to continously grow and if they are starved of those necessities they whither and die.  Could it not be that light or sunlight is as much a factor for survival of a palm as other factors just so long as the Palm can continue to grow?

I disagree. Spears are marked with a sharpie and no movement is noted every winter. 

Speaking to specifically to filifera,  I know of three things that can stop growth of the spear:

Drought, fire, cold. Regardless of leafage. 

It is my belief this is largely what can make this species "cold hardy".  It's ability to go dormant. 

Maybe true with other cold hardy palms.

Grasses are also monocots, mine stops growing in winter also. 

My thoughts

I did check sunlight hours between London/Portland.  More in Portland in winter.  Not much.  That said, combine those Arctic blasts with wind that Portland sees..........with that low sunlight.  

[Axel Amsterdam]

Could these minimum temperatures in downtown Portland be correct? If that’s the case it would explain why longer terms CIDP’s are absent like they are in Amsterdam.  These low’s are too low in a wet winterclimate without active growth for months (i must add that Amsterdam experiences very low daytemps after the occasional -5/-8C nights, hovering around 0C degrees, exacerbating the damage). 

The area of greater London is milder than these temperatures, in general lows stay within the -5c/23f range and these lows usually occur only once or twice at worst during winter. Some years in a row these lows of 23f don’t occur at all in the greater area of London which leaves the possibility for a CIDP to grow bigger and withstand the occasional lower temperature (<21f). Also daytemps usually are positive in the London area after a cold night.

[Las Palmas Norte]

On 11/24/2024 at 7:35 AM, jwitt said:

Filifera=15f

CIDP=20f

Temperatures are way off. Infact these  2 palms are grown in areas that see lower than your reported temperatures yearly(on average), long term, unprotected. 

 

Those would be a toast where I live at those temps. The winter season is too long and damp.

[jwitt]

@UK_Palms

"The biggest one in London (River Gardens, Fulham) also survived the coldest temps on record in 1987. So they are clearly long term now that they have actually been planted properly and have got to decent sizes. And again, that is that fella"

I believe parts of London saw temps approaching zero or at least single digits. Not familiar enough where this palm is or the actual temperature seen.  But apparently it survived. What temperature do you think it saw?