Lethal Bronzing in situ

[ahosey01]

Can anyone provide to me an known, verified, proven example of a palm that contracted lethal bronzing in situ, and was not transplanted at any point during its life other than during the seedling stage?

[ruskinPalms]

LB takes out native Sabal palms that grew through natural processes here though I do think it has slowed down a little thankfully 

[ruskinPalms]

Large pure unhybridized Phoenix species are pretty much instant death around here now. Feral Phoenix hybrids seem unaffected most likely because they have Pygmy date genes in them. Pygmy dates seem to be more resistant to LB

[RainforestCafe]

Exactly what @ruskinPalms said... in our area of Florida, you can see examples of 100% natural-grown Sabal Palmettos in the wild with the disease. I've seen them along the Manatee River infected. In my area and observations though, the Sabals don't seem nearly as vulnerable as Phoenix palms. You'll see a stand of countless Sabal Palmettos and maybe a couple will have the disease here and there. And the new installs of Sabal Palmettos in neighborhoods seem to have very high rates of survival.

But I don't know why they're still installing Phoenix palms in new neighborhoods. They die before the houses even get fully built.

[Jeff zone 8 N.C.]

9 minutes ago, RainforestCafe said:

And the new installs of Sabal Palmettos in neighborhoods seem to have very high rates of survival.

Any ideas on why this observation happens? Wild dug Florida S. palmetto have been shipped up to the N.C. coastal areas by the thousands (maybe thousands each year) for over 50 years and I worry that LB could be brought here.

[Hurricanepalms]

Hi @Jeff zone 8 N.C., From what I read in a few articles from the University of Florida, the primary insect vector for LB does not live in North Carolina. Here are two articles on the subject. 
 

LB Article: https://gardeningsolutions.ifas.ufl.edu/care/pests-and-diseases/diseases/lethal-bronzing-disease/

 

Article on the insect that spreads it: https://gardeningsolutions.ifas.ufl.edu/care/pests-and-diseases/diseases/lethal-bronzing-disease/

[ahosey01]

13 hours ago, RainforestCafe said:

Exactly what @ruskinPalms said... in our area of Florida, you can see examples of 100% natural-grown Sabal Palmettos in the wild with the disease. I've seen them along the Manatee River infected. In my area and observations though, the Sabals don't seem nearly as vulnerable as Phoenix palms. You'll see a stand of countless Sabal Palmettos and maybe a couple will have the disease here and there. And the new installs of Sabal Palmettos in neighborhoods seem to have very high rates of survival.

But I don't know why they're still installing Phoenix palms in new neighborhoods. They die before the houses even get fully built.

Around here, the feral Phoenix along the resacas etc. appear to be relatively disease free, as do pygmies and reclinatas.

[CascadiaPalms]

such a nasty disease I have to say...ouch! 😐

[Merlyn]

48 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Around here, the feral Phoenix along the resacas etc. appear to be relatively disease free, as do pygmies and reclinatas.

I haven't seen any Pygmy or Reclinata with visible signs of LB...and there are TONS of pygmy dates here in the Orlando area.  I've been keeping an eye on some bigger Reclinata plantings too.  Even in areas with lots of Sylvestris deaths, there aren't many (if any) deaths of Queens, Pygmy dates, or even Sabals with visible signs of LB. 

I see a lot of Sabals with badly yellowed tips, typical of Magnesium deficiencies.  Initially when LB made its way into the northern Orlando area I was concerned about the giant forests of them around here.  There were areas with very orange-ish color on the old leaves that I thought could be LB.  But year after year they just keep churning out new leaves as the old leaves die off.  To be honest, I haven't seen a single Sabal here that died in a typical-looking LB fashion.  This is the three-month progression of the disease in a confirmed case, from the UFL/IFAS page.  It seems to be more Lethal Browning in Sabals instead of Bronzing:

[TropicsEnjoyer]

8 hours ago, Merlyn said:

I haven't seen any Pygmy or Reclinata with visible signs of LB...and there are TONS of pygmy dates here in the Orlando area.  I've been keeping an eye on some bigger Reclinata plantings too.  Even in areas with lots of Sylvestris deaths, there aren't many (if any) deaths of Queens, Pygmy dates, or even Sabals with visible signs of LB. 

I see a lot of Sabals with badly yellowed tips, typical of Magnesium deficiencies.  Initially when LB made its way into the northern Orlando area I was concerned about the giant forests of them around here.  There were areas with very orange-ish color on the old leaves that I thought could be LB.  But year after year they just keep churning out new leaves as the old leaves die off.  To be honest, I haven't seen a single Sabal here that died in a typical-looking LB fashion.  This is the three-month progression of the disease in a confirmed case, from the UFL/IFAS page.  It seems to be more Lethal Browning in Sabals instead of Bronzing:

I think pygmy’s and reclinatas are two of the most resistant Phoenix species in terms of LB. Haven’t heard of any dying from that. Pygmy is so common too, but most of them that die die from neglect. As for reclinata i don’t see many but all the ones ive seen are vigorous and healthy. Id love to have one.

[Jim in Los Altos]

On 12/5/2024 at 1:24 PM, ruskinPalms said:

Large pure unhybridized Phoenix species are pretty much instant death around here now. Feral Phoenix hybrids seem unaffected most likely because they have Pygmy date genes in them. Pygmy dates seem to be more resistant to LB

Bill, I witnessed huge group of Phoenix roebelenii all turn that telltale bronze color and die shortly after in the city of Cupertino, CA last year. It was a devastating death since the palms were an integral part of the shopping center’s landscape. A smaller group of them have survived so far. 

[RainforestCafe]

23 hours ago, Jeff zone 8 N.C. said:

Any ideas on why this observation happens? Wild dug Florida S. palmetto have been shipped up to the N.C. coastal areas by the thousands (maybe thousands each year) for over 50 years and I worry that LB could be brought here.

Not really sure, to be honest with you. I have a hypothesis though. 

I think it's because the sabals just don't really seem to be as vulnerable in general to the disease as the Phoenix palms are. And I think the other reason is that diseases always seem to hit the hardest on palms that are already struggling/acclimating, etc. Sabals are native to this region so they're not really trying to acclimate. They're perfectly suited for this area. They grow like weeds here. If I don't mow an area, I even have sabals popping up 😂 

Whereas many of the Phoenix palms tend to be from deserty, dry, arid areas and they're planted in humid wet Florida so my assumption is that also puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to fending off disease.

[RainforestCafe]

1 hour ago, Jim in Los Altos said:

Bill, I witnessed huge group of Phoenix roebelenii all turn that telltale bronze color and die shortly after in the city of Cupertino, CA last year. It was a devastating death since the palms were an integral part of the shopping center’s landscape. A smaller group of them have survived so far. 

That's terrible. I've seen similar situations right down the street from me. Brand new neighborhoods with beautiful landscaping, numerous palms, and then the big centerpiece Phoenix Dactylifera all die. It's a shame.

[idontknowhatnametuse]

9 hours ago, Merlyn said:

I haven't seen any Pygmy or Reclinata with visible signs of LB...and there are TONS of pygmy dates here in the Orlando area.  I've been keeping an eye on some bigger Reclinata plantings too.  Even in areas with lots of Sylvestris deaths, there aren't many (if any) deaths of Queens, Pygmy dates, or even Sabals with visible signs of LB. 

I see a lot of Sabals with badly yellowed tips, typical of Magnesium deficiencies.  Initially when LB made its way into the northern Orlando area I was concerned about the giant forests of them around here.  There were areas with very orange-ish color on the old leaves that I thought could be LB.  But year after year they just keep churning out new leaves as the old leaves die off.  To be honest, I haven't seen a single Sabal here that died in a typical-looking LB fashion.  This is the three-month progression of the disease in a confirmed case, from the UFL/IFAS page.  It seems to be more Lethal Browning in Sabals instead of Bronzing:

I noticed that LB doesn't get transmitted to adjacent palms of the infected one. My Acrocomia has some sort of phytoplasma disease that looks like LB and there's tons of Haplaxius crudus (Vector) in my yard. Susceptible palms around it like Syagrus romanzoffiana, Attalea butyracea and Cocos nucifera have shown no signs of having the disease despite having a lot of H. crudus in the grass around them.

[TropicsEnjoyer]

@RainforestCafe Very true point. Sabals are at home and generally the population is not suffering much. They’re not hard to please either and seem to do well wild in the forests. If anything they do worse in cultivation , at least commercially. Another thing too maybe the bugs have fine taste, preferring exotic/introduced plants over boring natives 😂.

[Rand]

We just discovered our beautiful Phoenix Canariensis has LB, we are devastated. I have been consulting UF-IFAS Plant Diagnostic Center. We are deciding on the best method of removal. Saw and grind or dig out with a crane.

What can we replace such a stately specimen canary with? I was thinking a Rostonia regia Royal Palm perhaps two being they are not in the Phoenix palm family. UF-IFAS says quote:

”As of now there are no palms resistant to the phytoplasma that causes LB”

They say treat new growth, and I assume new palms with imidicloprid insecticide to keep the insect from transmitting the phytoplasma to other palms.

I see in this thread a hybrid phoenix?

Thank you

Rand in Orlando

[kinzyjr]

Hello @Rand,

Welcome to PalmTalk!  We all wish it was under better circumstances.  As far as replacement palms, it will depend on a few criteria:

Roystonea regia: if you want the bulk and wide crown you had with the Phoenix canariensis. 

Livistona decora: Hard to beat in terms of combined Lethal Bronzing and Cold tolerance. 

With Phoenix species, they're all a risk, but the Phoenix reclinata mutts seem to fare better from anecdotal observations.

If you're inside of the Orlando UHI, you'll have a variety of other choices that might not fare as well once you get outside the FL-429 and FL-417 boundaries, choices begin to pare down a little. 

[Merlyn]

LB has killed a bunch of palms in my area, though I doubt any have been officially tested:

• A recent Sylvestris transplant died with LB symptoms about 3 years ago
• Several Dacty and Sylvestris at businesses a couple of miles both N and S of me, in place 10+ years
• My Sylvestris with rapid lower browning, in place for only ~2 years
• A neighbor's Queen in place 15+ years and 20+ feet tall with rapid lower frond death and no fusarium signs
• A neighbor's Sabal had rapid death of 2 ranks of lower fronds about 12 to 15 months ago, but seemed mostly ok over last summer.  I just noticed it lost another lowest rank, and the newest center set died along with the new spear.

I Trashed my three Sylvestris, one Canariensis, 7 Queens, and a few hybrid Phoenix.  I still have three ~6 foot trunk Roebellini and a big Reclinata cluster.  I figured that susceptible palms are just easy spreaders for more disease, and would all eventually die from it.  So why waste valuable planting space?

[ahosey01]

Down here Queens don't get LB that I'm aware of.  Canaries, dactylifera and sylvestris only.

@Rand if you want a big, beautiful, stately, palm that has basically no risk of lethal bronzing (don't listen to the "there are no palms resistant" hype - this might be literally true but isn't really true in practice), head down to the Loxahatchee or Homestead area and pick yourself up a big Copernicia fallaensis, Copernicia gigas, or Copernicia baileyana (fallaensis is my favorite).  You won't be disappointed and they'll do great in your area, and should live off your natural rainfall.

[Merlyn]

@ahosey01 I was skeptical on Queens initially.  But in areas where I have seen the occasional Sabal die, and the occasional Queen too, all with the same visible symptoms.  UFL confirms it is susceptible, and several PTers have said they had tested positive Queens removed in I think Louisiana and Texas.

[Merlyn]

Though this doesn't quite fit the criteria of "never transplanted," these Sylvestris were planted as ~6-10' trunk palms somewhere between 9/2015 and 5/2016 according to Google Maps.  About a year ago I noted two unhealthy ones, and two have been removed with LB symptoms.  I took this photo on 2/3/25, you can see the center one is getting ready to die with no new spears and dead lower crown.  On the right side one has a bunch of new fronds that are refusing to open normally.

My best guess is that a shopping center to the left about 1/2 mile away put in about 30 new Sylvesters 2-3 years ago...and half promptly died of LB.  That was probably the entry point for the disease into this particular area.

Down the street this is the Sabal that is dying of probable LB.  The oldest fronds quickly died over the past couple of weeks, and I noted that there are no new spears.  The crown started tilting a couple of weeks ago too.  We've had some big windstorms recently, so it's hard to guess why that is happening.  Lack of hydrostatic pressure?