Why is Sabal Palmetto never discussed in conversation of best cold hardy trunking palms?

[OriolesRock100]

Sabal palmettos are surprisingly cold hardy but never seem to be in conversations of cold hardy trunking palms - hardy to about 10°F which is only a couple degrees higher than the gold standard cold hardy trachycarpus fortunei. Is there a reason for this? I suspect it could be because of the slow growth rate or because of the requirement of hot humid summers for growth (which isn’t common in many places people are growing cold hardy palms). However, for the east coast of the US, I think sabal palmettos that are grown in and accustomed to the cold environment (not imported from Florida) would do well almost as far north as trachycarpus fortunei due to the hot humid summers we receive. I’m in zone 7A, and none of some extra seedlings I left out in plastic pots unprotected through 6°F have spear pulled yet, a full week after, and they are still mostly green (hopefully I haven’t jinxed it I know I’m not out of the woods yet haha). I think more people in similar climates should try zone pushing with trunking Sabal varieties if you can get past the slow growth rate.

[PalmatierMeg]

No snark intended but most people new to palms consider pinnate/feather palms to be the only palms worthy of their attention. When I joined PT back in 2008 many people on here claimed they hated Sabal palms and expressed hope that they would be destroyed wherever they grew. I never expected such vitriol aimed at the elimination of a native SE US palm. At that time PalmTalk was the "Dypsis, Dypsis, Dypsis" palm forum 24/7.  I find it ironic that the Dypsis genus has been gutted in favor of Chrysalidocarpus.

Things have changed in the past 10-15 years and the stock of palmate and cold hardy palms has risen. I'm glad to see it. Still, Sabals and other palmate palms get scant respect outside of colder climates even though, in general, palmate palms are tougher and more resilient than almost all pinnate palms. Would it surprise me to learn there are still people who hope all Sabal palmettos are chopped into oblivion wherever they grow? Not at bit.

[SeanK]

1 hour ago, OriolesRock100 said:

Sabal palmettos are surprisingly cold hardy but never seem to be in conversations of cold hardy trunking palms - hardy to about 10°F which is only a couple degrees higher than the gold standard cold hardy trachycarpus fortunei. Is there a reason for this? I suspect it could be because of the slow growth rate or because of the requirement of hot humid summers for growth (which isn’t common in many places people are growing cold hardy palms). However, for the east coast of the US, I think sabal palmettos that are grown in and accustomed to the cold environment (not imported from Florida) would do well almost as far north as trachycarpus fortunei due to the hot humid summers we receive. I’m in zone 7A, and none of some extra seedlings I left out in plastic pots unprotected through 6°F have spear pulled yet, a full week after, and they are still mostly green (hopefully I haven’t jinxed it I know I’m not out of the woods yet haha). I think more people in similar climates should try zone pushing with trunking Sabal varieties if you can get past the slow growth rate.

Actually, there's a trio of palmettos near me pirate-planted in the spring of 2014. At 5°, a little bronzing but just as good as the average T.fortunei.  I like them alot for the casual, bushy look. I think folks don't like to wait and h/c palmettos may take 5+ years to gain back that cold-hardiness.

[late edit] The 5°F was Dec 2022

[SeanK]

6 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

No snark intended but most people new to palms consider pinnate/feather palms to be the only palms worthy of their attention. When I joined PT back in 2008 many people on here claimed they hated Sabal palms and expressed hope that they would be destroyed wherever they grew. I never expected such vitriol aimed at the elimination of a native SE US palm. At that time PalmTalk was the "Dypsis, Dypsis, Dypsis" palm forum 24/7.  I find it ironic that the Dypsis genus has been gutted in favor of Chrysalidocarpus.

Things have changed in the past 10-15 years and the stock of palmate and cold hardy palms has risen. I'm glad to see it. Still, Sabals and other palmate palms get scant respect outside of colder climates even though, in general, palmate palms are tougher and more resilient than almost all pinnate palms. Would it surprise me to learn there are still people who hope all Sabal palmettos are chopped into oblivion wherever they grow? Not at bit.

How true. Everyone wants crownshaft palms when they get started. If you point out that Thrinax radiata or Cocothrinax crinata are tropical, folks turn their noses up.

[OriolesRock100]

29 minutes ago, PalmatierMeg said:

No snark intended but most people new to palms consider pinnate/feather palms to be the only palms worthy of their attention. When I joined PT back in 2008 many people on here claimed they hated Sabal palms and expressed hope that they would be destroyed wherever they grew. I never expected such vitriol aimed at the elimination of a native SE US palm. At that time PalmTalk was the "Dypsis, Dypsis, Dypsis" palm forum 24/7.  I find it ironic that the Dypsis genus has been gutted in favor of Chrysalidocarpus.

Things have changed in the past 10-15 years and the stock of palmate and cold hardy palms has risen. I'm glad to see it. Still, Sabals and other palmate palms get scant respect outside of colder climates even though, in general, palmate palms are tougher and more resilient than almost all pinnate palms. Would it surprise me to learn there are still people who hope all Sabal palmettos are chopped into oblivion wherever they grow? Not at bit.

I find that interesting - I love pinnate palms too (Christmas palm is probably my favorite palm of them all), but imo the Sabal palmetto is one of the best looking palms period and is very unique looking among palmate palms. Thank you for your insight

[Allen]

1 hour ago, OriolesRock100 said:

Sabal palmettos are surprisingly cold hardy but never seem to be in conversations of cold hardy trunking palms - hardy to about 10°F which is only a couple degrees higher than the gold standard cold hardy trachycarpus fortunei. Is there a reason for this? I suspect it could be because of the slow growth rate or because of the requirement of hot humid summers for growth (which isn’t common in many places people are growing cold hardy palms). However, for the east coast of the US, I think sabal palmettos that are grown in and accustomed to the cold environment (not imported from Florida) would do well almost as far north as trachycarpus fortunei due to the hot humid summers we receive. I’m in zone 7A, and none of some extra seedlings I left out in plastic pots unprotected through 6°F have spear pulled yet, a full week after, and they are still mostly green (hopefully I haven’t jinxed it I know I’m not out of the woods yet haha). I think more people in similar climates should try zone pushing with trunking Sabal varieties if you can get past the slow growth rate.

This is pretty much the answer.  fortunei are much more tolerant of longer/colder/cooler temps.  In Northern areas it is very hard to get a large palmetto and a fortunei can get large relatively fast from 5 gallon size.  Also if you were to transplant 2 palms lets say with 10 foot of trunk in a cooler area, the palmetto would struggle and the fortunei would do fine.  The transplanted palmetto in even FL take a couple years to do well

[OriolesRock100]

26 minutes ago, SeanK said:

Actually, there's a trio of palmettos near me pirate-planted in the spring of 2014. At 5°, a little bronzing but just as good as the average T.fortunei.  I like them alot for the casual, bushy look. I think folks don't like to wait and h/c palmettos may take 5+ years to gain back that cold-hardiness.

I left most of my seedlings out unprotected in plastic pots through sustained 16 hours single digit temps (low 6°F) because I was away from home and already had moved a couple to the garage so wasn’t too worried if I lost some. I was surprised to see that all of them are still 80%+ green with firm spears that don’t show signs of rot even though it warmed up to the mid 60s today. Very impressive toughness from 8 month old seedlings (from any palm species for that matter) to even have chances of surviving that unprotected if you ask me

[OriolesRock100]

4 minutes ago, Allen said:

This is pretty much the answer.  fortunei are much more tolerant of longer/colder/cooler temps.  In Northern areas it is very hard to get a large palmetto and a fortunei can get large relatively fast from 5 gallon size

That makes sense and was the most probable reason I thought of - taking time waiting for them to grow with a chance they could kick the bucket at any point, wasting all the time you spent growing it, when a trachy could be double the size in same time period. Thanks for the reply! Love your videos by the way! Part of my inspiration to start growing some palms for fun

[Zone7Bpalmguy]

1 hour ago, OriolesRock100 said:

Sabal palmettos are surprisingly cold hardy but never seem to be in conversations of cold hardy trunking palms - hardy to about 10°F which is only a couple degrees higher than the gold standard cold hardy trachycarpus fortunei. Is there a reason for this? I suspect it could be because of the slow growth rate or because of the requirement of hot humid summers for growth (which isn’t common in many places people are growing cold hardy palms). However, for the east coast of the US, I think sabal palmettos that are grown in and accustomed to the cold environment (not imported from Florida) would do well almost as far north as trachycarpus fortunei due to the hot humid summers we receive. I’m in zone 7A, and none of some extra seedlings I left out in plastic pots unprotected through 6°F have spear pulled yet, a full week after, and they are still mostly green (hopefully I haven’t jinxed it I know I’m not out of the woods yet haha). I think more people in similar climates should try zone pushing with trunking Sabal varieties if you can get past the slow growth rate.

You bring up a good point. There are some smaller ones in my region.  Palmettos probably get a bad reputation because a lot of people buy the trunked ones that are field dug and they are nowhere near as hardy. Here's a pic of mine from earlier this year. It's beginning to trunk. Mine has seen 3-5'F a few winters ago along with a high of only 14'F that day. Never completely defoliated but it had some rough looking fronds.

 

[Allen]

Here is our fortunei vs our palmetto.  the fortunei is about 1 year older

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z1Z1dIafCc

[MarcusH]

1 hour ago, PalmatierMeg said:

No snark intended but most people new to palms consider pinnate/feather palms to be the only palms worthy of their attention. When I joined PT back in 2008 many people on here claimed they hated Sabal palms and expressed hope that they would be destroyed wherever they grew. I never expected such vitriol aimed at the elimination of a native SE US palm. At that time PalmTalk was the "Dypsis, Dypsis, Dypsis" palm forum 24/7.  I find it ironic that the Dypsis genus has been gutted in favor of Chrysalidocarpus.

Things have changed in the past 10-15 years and the stock of palmate and cold hardy palms has risen. I'm glad to see it. Still, Sabals and other palmate palms get scant respect outside of colder climates even though, in general, palmate palms are tougher and more resilient than almost all pinnate palms. Would it surprise me to learn there are still people who hope all Sabal palmettos are chopped into oblivion wherever they grow? Not at bit.

Sabal palmettos are one of the toughest palm trees you see from the Southeast to Texas ( we don't know what region we belong to lol).  In my opinion it's a beautiful palm that withstand every artic blasts we get here in Texas.  I will add Sabal Mexicana to the list too.  I hope to see a lot more planted in my region ( San Antonio) .  They survived the 1980s freezes with temperatures of 5°F .  If winters continue to be cold or get even colder you can always count on Sabal Palmettos/Mexicana.  Bulletproof in zone 8 . 

[Las Palmas Norte]

Why is Sabal Palmetto never discussed in conversation of best cold hardy trunking palms?

That really depends on where one lives. Sabal palmetto are not reliably hardy in all regions of zone 8.

[OriolesRock100]

14 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Why is Sabal Palmetto never discussed in conversation of best cold hardy trunking palms?

That really depends on where one lives. Sabal palmetto are not reliably hardy in all regions of zone 8.

Yes that's true they wouldn't do well in cooler summer climates, even in a west coast zone 8. I was more referring to humid subtropical climates like on the east coast. I would argue trunking sabals are almost at the same hardiness as trachycarpus fortunei in these climates that have hot, humid summers. After this thread, though, I think my original thoughts were confirmed that it is probably mostly due to the slow growth rate as well as the fact that trachycarpus is ubiquitous in far more types of temperate climates.

[Harry’s Palms]

Sabal Palmetto are pretty big for most gardens . Until they reach overhead size , which takes many years , they can overwhelm a space. I planted mine down on my hill and I’m glad I did. I would’ve had to remove it if it were near my house . I am very pleased with the look and they are very easy to grow , as long as you are patient . I have recently been told mine may be “Riverside” due to the large trunk , but I can’t confirm that. Harry

About 25 years from seedling. 

[kristof p]

13 hours ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

Why is Sabal Palmetto never discussed in conversation of best cold hardy trunking palms?

That really depends on where one lives. Sabal palmetto are not reliably hardy in all regions of zone 8.

in my cool humid oceanic climate (Belguim z8b/9a) they are hardy but hardly grow... I planted a small seedling of S. palmetto some 18 years ago and it still is a seedling. I don't think they will form a stem in my climate. at least not in the first 50 years or so. 

S. minor is growing much better and faster up here. And one S. minor I planted together with the palmetto seedling also as a seedling is now starting to form a trunk.

18 year old S. palmetto 

[KPoff]

I’m new to palms, only been growing for about a year now. I appreciate and love any of them that will grow in my climate. I live in 8A west Texas. The sun really seems to fry Trachycarpus here so I’m planting more sabals. I’ve got minors, Brazoriensis and a palmetto planted. I planted the palmetto mid September which is probably too late in the year but I guess we will see. So far the winter has been mild and it was a 5 gallon when I planted it. It’s only seen 27 F so far but even the potted palmetto I’m waiting until spring to plant seems unfazed. I’ve also got a few Mediterranean fan palms planted on the south side of my house a few feet from brick so we’ll see how they do. Mid 20s next week for lows supposedly but still should be nothing to worry about yet.

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, kristof p said:

in my cool humid oceanic climate (Belguim z8b/9a) they are hardy but hardly grow... I planted a small seedling of S. palmetto some 18 years ago and it still is a seedling. I don't think they will form a stem in my climate. at least not in the first 50 years or so. 

S. minor is growing much better and faster up here. And one S. minor I planted together with the palmetto seedling also as a seedling is now starting to form a trunk.

18 year old S. palmetto 

A survivor not a thriver. I once planted a 7 gallon palmetto that, over the course of 3 years, died despite being in the hottest part of my garden. Not hot enough, long enough, with a shorter than preferable growing season. Other Sabal sp. as you've also found out, perform much better.

[kristof p]

26 minutes ago, Las Palmas Norte said:

A survivor not a thriver. I once planted a 7 gallon palmetto that, over the course of 3 years, died despite being in the hottest part of my garden. Not hot enough, long enough, with a shorter than preferable growing season. Other Sabal sp. as you've also found out, perform much better.

yes, to short of a growing season with not enough heat to get them going.

[Arecaceus]

I never hated them but I've never found them particularly interesting until recently. In Europe they are not that common compared to Trachies.
But I'm more interested in Sabals other than palmetto or minor. I love uresana. Especially the blue form is very beautiful. But I think I'm most in love with S. causiarum. They grow massive and they are fast growing for a Sabal. I got some seeds and I planted out a small seedling last year. In my experience it's growing faster than T. fortunei at seedling stage. Idk how it differs when Trachies get into their typical growth boost compared to S. causiarum at the same time. It's supposed to be quite cold hardy but not as cold hardy as a S. palmetto.
Uresana has proven to be very cold hardy as well even in my cool/cold and wet winter climate. I will definitely try S. palmetto someday and I have seedlings of the 'Lisa' form.

[Xenon]

Edit: wrong thread oops

[kinzyjr]

Sabal palmetto was the first trunking palm I saw on my way to Florida so long ago.  There was a planting in NC along I-95 somewhere around Lumberton.  After seeing those, that's when my interest in growing them began.

Nothing quite says welcome to the Southeast USA like a large lot with an antebellum mansion surrounded by large live oaks and pines setting the canopy in place for large Sabal palmetto at the second layer, with Sabal minor, Serenoa repens, and Rhapidophyllum hystrix at various growth stages in the understory layer.  One could have quite a landscape without much worry about cold damage using that arrangement. 

In @JasonD's book, Designing With Palms, he features Riverbanks Botanical Garden in Columbia, SC that uses a similar palm planting scheme with other plants mixed in.  The garden of Mary Alice Woodrum in North Augusta, SC is also featured in the book and planted with these species and other very cold hardy genera as well.  The Sabal palmetto looks great in that garden mixed with the others above.

[hbernstein]

On 12/29/2024 at 3:11 PM, OriolesRock100 said:

Sabal palmettos are surprisingly cold hardy but never seem to be in conversations of cold hardy trunking palms - hardy to about 10°F which is only a couple degrees higher than the gold standard cold hardy trachycarpus fortunei. Is there a reason for this? I suspect it could be because of the slow growth rate or because of the requirement of hot humid summers for growth (which isn’t common in many places people are growing cold hardy palms). However, for the east coast of the US, I think sabal palmettos that are grown in and accustomed to the cold environment (not imported from Florida) would do well almost as far north as trachycarpus fortunei due to the hot humid summers we receive. I’m in zone 7A, and none of some extra seedlings I left out in plastic pots unprotected through 6°F have spear pulled yet, a full week after, and they are still mostly green (hopefully I haven’t jinxed it I know I’m not out of the woods yet haha). I think more people in similar climates should try zone pushing with trunking Sabal varieties if you can get past the slow growth rate.

For this Florida native, Sabal palmetto is one of my favorite palm species. I like S.minor and S. etonia, too!

[PalmatierMeg]

On 12/29/2024 at 7:28 PM, Las Palmas Norte said:

Why is Sabal Palmetto never discussed in conversation of best cold hardy trunking palms?

That really depends on where one lives. Sabal palmetto are not reliably hardy in all regions of zone 8.

Sabal  palmetto is a tropical/subtropical palmate palm that can survive occasional bouts of single digit and low teens during winter lows. To achieve that amazing feat they need the following most if the year: high summer temps (80-100F), high humidity (70%-100%) although they are quite drought tolerant, dawn to dusk blazing sunlight. If they don't have those, i.e., in the PNW, they won't achieve an adequate growth and may die.

Trachycarpus is a temperate palm. I can't grow it - I've tried. The longest I've had one survive my hot, sweltering climate was 18 months for a 1g that never grew, instead withered then died. Based on my early research I learned they cannot tolerate my 6-7 month stifling summers. I have since been told by other PTers that nematodes do them in. I now believe both play a part. I also believe that Trachies require colder winter temps than they get in SWFL because some growers achieve success with them in NFL.

RE Sabal  palmetto, absent the sun, heat, humidity trifecta 3/4 of the year they cannot thrive. Trachycarpus has the opposite problem.

I planted my lamented Sabal Row in 2008/09 from seed grown trunking Sabal species. Most of those palms reached 15'+ tall by last summer when they were dug up  to make way for the ugliest Early 21st Modern House in Cape Coral. So much for "slow growing" Sabals. Unless you are older than 65 or live in PNW you have the time, if not the patience, to grow Sabals.

[flplantguy]

They are numerous in my yard and the backbone of my landscape, but its Florida so they are common. People do not plant them as often here because of it, in fact my county doesnt even require permits to remove them, so here thats part of the issue. Also like others have said they dont have the crown shaft and pinnate fronds people love, but i like that the "boots" stay on for vines and epipyhtes to use.  My key planting areas are underneath mature ones and im planting them as a wind/view block in the harshest part of my yard. They are like my garden gaurdians that i can count on to be strong and care free while shielding the others i have. They should be grown more often, but those reasons above plus the climate needs mentioned (southern New Mexico can also grow them, so humidity is not AS critical as temps) keep them out of many gardens. Even southern Europe out of the hot spots is not warm enough i think, but thats Trachy country really.  Mine do ok growth rate wise, but slow way down and stop in winter chill, which i get more of than south florida.  In a marginal heat area i would say use a greenhouse then plant out when its a good size, at the right time, and hope it can establish. If it were a coconut that would be done already (and is) but sabals are more adapted to be tough for their harsh climate than be pretty so that doesnt happen. Mine that are fruiting size also seed like crazy and people complain about that (but not from a pinnate palm that does the same, looking at you queen palm🙄).  If you love it try it! If it fails at least you wont regret not ever trying.

[Las Palmas Norte]

2 hours ago, PalmatierMeg said:

Sabal  palmetto is a tropical/subtropical palmate palm that can survive occasional bouts of single digit and low teens during winter lows. To achieve that amazing feat they need the following most if the year: high summer temps (80-100F), high humidity (70%-100%) although they are quite drought tolerant, dawn to dusk blazing sunlight. If they don't have those, i.e., in the PNW, they won't achieve an adequate growth and may die.

Trachycarpus is a temperate palm. I can't grow it - I've tried. The longest I've had one survive my hot, sweltering climate was 18 months for a 1g that never grew, instead withered then died. Based on my early research I learned they cannot tolerate my 6-7 month stifling summers. I have since been told by other PTers that nematodes do them in. I now believe both play a part. I also believe that Trachies require colder winter temps than they get in SWFL because some growers achieve success with them in NFL.

RE Sabal  palmetto, absent the sun, heat, humidity trifecta 3/4 of the year they cannot thrive. Trachycarpus has the opposite problem.

I planted my lamented Sabal Row in 2008/09 from seed grown trunking Sabal species. Most of those palms reached 15'+ tall by last summer when they were dug up  to make way for the ugliest Early 21st Modern House in Cape Coral. So much for "slow growing" Sabals. Unless you are older than 65 or live in PNW you have the time, if not the patience, to grow Sabals.

   This is why so many new palm enthusiasts have problems. They're caught up in the "zone ratings" and neglect or don't explore much of the environmental conditions required for cultivation. I'm guilty of this having tried S. palmetto, hoping that a prime micro-climate may overcome the general PNW local climate. 3 years of languishing and then death. T. fortunei grows to near perfection here and is the go-to palm for the region. I appreciate the information from the FL perspective which confirms these palms success/failure rates from both ends of the spectrum.

[Allen]

Generally N of Atlanta Trachycarpus probably starts outperforming 

[palmnut-fry]

Sabal is the oldest palm in the fossil record and so is a strong survivor. I always loved them because the tree form (not minor and a couple others) species have the bi-twisted leaf that has feather leaf look as well as palmate! Best of both worlds and they are just bigger, stronger, more substantial than many other kinds 🥰As an aside, i named my small landscape company after the native S. minor to which stayed true to name i.e. small but tenacious! 

Happy hoping not as F'd as 24, Y'all!

[fr8train]

I think they might be the hardiest trunking palm period. I've seen plenty of dead trachycarpus that didn't make it through big freeze here in Texas. I don't think I've seen a single Sabal palm that didn't, even in really marginal areas. They're insanely tough. 

I think what makes Trachycarpus more popular as a cold hardy palm is that it grows well with cooler summers, it's compact, and it starts looking like a trunking palm much more quickly.

Sabals are huge, even palmettos which are some of the most compact. They're also kinda slow unless it's really hot out. So if you're trying to zone push in Europe, or somewhere else up north where there aren't months of 90F+ degree days, they take forever to do anything. 

[fr8train]

I forgot to add too, not only am I not aware of a single one dying from the big freeze, but their leaves don't even burn when those big freezes roll through. Every other palm that also survives, for the most part, Butia, CIDP, filifera etc, defoliates. Sabals don't, so they always look good. 

I know people don't like them as much as other palms for some reason, but I'd love to see them planted everywhere down here. I see so many people buy and plant other palms, only to watch them get burned during a cold snap, and that keeps them (palms) from gaining too much popularity, I think. 

[ChrisA]

I agree Tad, and Marcus Sabals here in central Texas are rock-solid. I never saw any damage on any of the sabals in my area following Feb. 2021.  If I were the OP in Pennsylvania I'd certainly try them out, and if I could get my hands on a Birmingham I would!  Of course you'll need to plant a seedling Birmingham when you're no older than 4, as they grow so damn slow.  I'm hoping mine in Albuquerque will put on some better growth in the next 10 years, but I'm not holding my breath.

[OriolesRock100]

38 minutes ago, ChrisA said:

I agree Tad, and Marcus Sabals here in central Texas are rock-solid. I never saw any damage on any of the sabals in my area following Feb. 2021.  If I were the OP in Pennsylvania I'd certainly try them out, and if I could get my hands on a Birmingham I would!  Of course you'll need to plant a seedling Birmingham when you're no older than 4, as they grow so damn slow.  I'm hoping mine in Albuquerque will put on some better growth in the next 10 years, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm far enough north that I would guess enough of the year has "cool" temps that would make the trachy more hardy, but sabals come pretty close imo. I believe if you go a bit south down to washington/richmond, sabals and trachys would be even closer to the same in terms of hardiness and would probably vary more by individual specimen than by the nature of it being a palmetto/trachy.

I'm going to try both - I have a trachy I bought as a "1 gallon" last spring, and palmettos I've grown from seed. I suspect we get just enough hot muggy days here in southeast PA to make sabal palmettos viable with a bit of protection.

I also have a sabal minor which I'm certain will do well - might buy some sabal Birmingham seeds/seedlings if I can find some this winter and try one of those too.