Polar Vortex Jan 2025 - Are you preparing your palms?

[mthteh1916]

1 minute ago, Subtropical LIS said:

Tonight should be the bottom...the forecast low is 11 - 13 F...for maybe 3 hrs.  Should be back into the 50's F by the weekend.

 

I'm not sure what zone Houston is compared to north Florida...but driving up and down the Florida coast over the years, I have seen some of the north Florida Washingtonia get damaged once or twice a decade, and most seem to come back ok.  In 2003, Jacksonville, FL went down to 19 F for a few hrs, and most of the Washingtonia's came back. So hopfully some will make it. 

the bel air mall on airport blvd in Mobile is forecast to go to 15F. it has loads of beautiful washies. does an ice day and 15F with snow kill washies? I hope not cause they are beautiful but I think they will be killed. 

[ahosey01]

@DAVEinMB what about your neck of the woods

[UK_Palms]

18 minutes ago, mthteh1916 said:

really sad. I heard this air crossed over from Siberia. Those are usually the worst cold outbreaks. damn shame loads of palms will be dead all along the alabama coast and panhandle of florida. 

Will the duration really be that long though to wipe them out? What palms  are we talking about? It's not like they've got coconuts and ultra exotics planted in the panhandle is it. A lot of the stuff there will take a night of 20F and maybe 24 hours below freezing at worst. Then back to 70's F by the weekend, so recovery can begin before January is even out. Not a huge deal.

Unlike say a 20F night here at 51N during a proper cold spell with months before any proper warmup for recovery.

[Xenon]

2 minutes ago, mthteh1916 said:

yeah but I think if the NAO which is staying around -2 is the reason for the not as cold.  when the NAO hits -4 or -5 that is when it gets severely cold in the SE. This is still very bad. there is no snow in the rio grand valley and the forecast is low to mid 20'sF down there. that is bad for grapefruits still on the trees. the coldest areas will be the rural areas. 

NWS doesn't have any of the inhabited or citrus grove areas of the RGV below 26F tonight. An hour or two below 30F is not going to ruin any fruit. Not super damaging to any of the tropical vegetation that made it through prior freezes either, it'll probably just be a cosmetic event for some more tender stuff. RGV +/- dodged the event 

[ahosey01]

1 minute ago, UK_Palms said:

Will the duration really be that long though to wipe them out? What palms  are we talking about? It's not like they've got coconuts and ultra exotics planted in the panhandle is it. A lot of the stuff there will take a night of 20F and maybe 24 hours below freezing at worst. Then back to 70's F by the weekend, so recovery can begin before January is even out. Not a huge deal.

Unlike say a 20F night here at 51N during a proper cold spell with months before any proper warmup for recovery.

All of the Cyrtostachys on the gulf coast will be gone...

just kidding nobody is doing that lol

[mthteh1916]

3 minutes ago, Subtropical LIS said:

Tonight should be the bottom...the forecast low is 11 - 13 F...for maybe 3 hrs.  Should be back into the 50's F by the weekend.

 

I'm not sure what zone Houston is compared to north Florida...but driving up and down the Florida coast over the years, I have seen some of the north Florida Washingtonia get damaged once or twice a decade, and most seem to come back ok.  In 2003, Jacksonville, FL went down to 19 F for a few hrs, and most of the Washingtonia's came back. So hopfully some will make it. 

I'm in fort lauderdale. I was in cocoa beach in 1975. saw one coconut palm loaded with coconuts but it was only 15' tall. today they are everywhere in cocoa beach. 

[mthteh1916]

2 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Will the duration really be that long though to wipe them out? What palms  are we talking about? It's not like they've got coconuts and ultra exotics planted in the panhandle is it. A lot of the stuff there will take a night of 20F and maybe 24 hours below freezing at worst. Then back to 70's F by the weekend, so recovery can begin before January is even out. Not a huge deal.

Unlike say a 20F night here at 51N during a proper cold spell with months before any proper warmup for recovery.

like I said with the deep snow cover they have NOLA not going above 32F until thursday. NOLA has loads of 9b stuff or at least did until the last few brutal years. 

[ahosey01]

2 minutes ago, Xenon said:

NWS doesn't have any of the inhabited or citrus grove areas of the RGV below 26F tonight. An hour or two below 30F is not going to ruin any fruit. Not super damaging to any of the tropical vegetation that made it through prior freezes either, it'll probably just be a cosmetic event for some more tender stuff. RGV +/- dodged the event 

Tonight may be different but so far this is factually true down at my house.  My low was 33F and I've been at 37F for hours now.  NWS is saying 30F tonight and the GFS and NAM are saying 30F also so this shouldn't be terrible.  I haven't protected my Adonidia yet and it looks fine.

[mthteh1916]

3 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

All of the Cyrtostachys on the gulf coast will be gone...

just kidding nobody is doing that lol

I'm sad due to the death of washies. I've seen cidp take 14 and come back but usually a dry 14F not a 14F with snow or freezing rain.  I think the cidp will survive 14F but I saw loads of dead washies in Mobile AL in the spring of 2014. 

[Xenon]

6 minutes ago, Subtropical LIS said:

Tonight should be the bottom...the forecast low is 11 - 13 F...for maybe 3 hrs.  Should be back into the 50's F by the weekend.

 

I'm not sure what zone Houston is compared to north Florida

The post was about Louisiana along I-10/I-12.  They are getting nailed by this thing. This is all zone 9a/9b new map or 8b/9a old map. Along I-10/I-12 is pretty similar to the FL Panhandle with the exception of New Orleans which is more shielded from cold than anywhere on FL Panhandle. 

[Subtropical LIS]

3 minutes ago, mthteh1916 said:

I'm in fort lauderdale. I was in cocoa beach in 1975. saw one coconut palm loaded with coconuts but it was only 15' tall. today they are everywhere in cocoa beach. 

Yes, I'm up in the area too...and there are many coconuts in that area. It doesn't look like the cold gets to central Florida from what I can see - Melbourne low next few nights in the lower 40's F. 

[UK_Palms]

Just now, mthteh1916 said:

the bel air mall on airport blvd in Mobile is forecast to go to 15F. it has loads of beautiful washies. does an ice day and 15F with snow kill washies? I hope not cause they are beautiful but I think they will be killed. 

Well Robusta's will be defoliated completely by 15F and snow, but they should all come back from that tbh and push new growth in the spring. It's hardly devastating temps or overly prolonged. They've come back from far worse, providing they are a decent size and established anyway.

Filifera's (assuming there are even any planted there in coastal Alabama?) will probably only sustain 50% burn from 15F and a few inches of snow. I can't see them being completely defoliated from those conditions, but I wouldn't rule it out.

This Filifera was virtually unscathed (5% damage) during the February 2018 event here when it sustained about -9C to -10C / 14F to 16F, but that was a fairly dry freeze with little to no snow, which obviously would have helped. So it will be interesting to see how much of a difference the snow will make with Filifera damage.

[Subtropical LIS]

6 minutes ago, Xenon said:

The post was about Louisiana along I-10/I-12.  They are getting nailed by this thing. This is all zone 9a/9b new map or 8b/9a old map. Along I-10/I-12 is pretty similar to the FL Panhandle with the exception of New Orleans which is more shielded from cold than anywhere on FL Panhandle. 

You're right, I foregt that the Panhandle is a bit colder than the Atlantic coast near Jax.

Will be interesting to see the ultimate low in New Orleans.

[Subtropical LIS]

Yesterdays lows across the Gulf and lower East Coast:

 

Was a little shocked that coastal South Carolina and Gerogia stayed a bit warmer than north coastal Texas last night:

 

 

[mthteh1916]

3 minutes ago, Xenon said:

The post was about Louisiana along I-10/I-12.  They are getting nailed by this thing. This is all zone 9a/9b new map or 8b/9a old map. Along I-10/I-12 is pretty similar to the FL Panhandle with the exception of New Orleans which is more shielded from cold than anywhere on FL Panhandle. 

the lake protects them from the severe cold but sometimes it still gets quite cold there like 1989. 

[Xenon]

Well west Houston overperformed with the daytime heating today (actual high of 39F vs forecast of 34F).

Hopefully enough snow melted to keep it above 20F until sunrise. Fingers crossed 🤞

[Robbertico18]

8 minutes ago, Subtropical LIS said:

Yesterdays lows across the Gulf and lower East Coast:

 

Was a little shocked that coastal South Carolina and Gerogia stayed a bit warmer than north coastal Texas last night:

 

 

And I was relieved!

[UK_Palms]

7 minutes ago, mthteh1916 said:

like I said with the deep snow cover they have NOLA not going above 32F until thursday. NOLA has loads of 9b stuff or at least did until the last few brutal years. 

Remember I am a Brit, but I like to think I am fairly savvy with the lingo and I assume you are refferring to New Orleans (Louisiana) when you say NOLA, right...? Not that I have ever heard that term used before, ever.

A low of 20F and 72 hours below freezing isn't the end of the world either. All the Washingtonia and Phoenix will come through that, especially larger specimens. When you say "9b stuff" what are you talking about specifically? There aren't any Queens in New Orleans is there? And even still I would expect them to come through that still.

[mthteh1916]

4 minutes ago, Xenon said:

Well west Houston overperformed with the daytime heating today (actual high of 39F vs forecast of 34F).

Hopefully enough snow melted to keep it above 20F until sunrise. Fingers crossed 🤞

that is a good sign. honestly it looks like the worst of the snow and cold moved towards NOLA and Mobile and away from Lake Charles. 

[Xenon]

Just now, UK_Palms said:

 There aren't any Queens in New Orleans is there? And even still I would expect them to come through that still.

New Orleans is a queen palm jungle, thousands of 'em. The last bastion of queens along the western Gulf on I-10 after Houston got nuked in 2021. 

Their survival all depends on the overnight temp. How low will it go?? Nobody knows, forecasts all over the place. 

[mthteh1916]

2 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Remember I am a Brit, but I like to think I am fairly savvy with the lingo and I assume you are refferring to New Orleans (Louisiana) when you say NOLA, right...? Not that I have ever heard that term used before, ever.

A low of 20F and 72 hours below freezing isn't the end of the world either. All the Washingtonia and Phoenix will come through that, especially larger specimens. When you say "9b stuff" what are you talking about specifically? There aren't any Queens in New Orleans is there? And even still I would expect them to come through that still.

loads of queens in New Orleans when I was there a few years ago. Bird of paradise too. lots of citrus etc. 

[mthteh1916]

4 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Remember I am a Brit, but I like to think I am fairly savvy with the lingo and I assume you are refferring to New Orleans (Louisiana) when you say NOLA, right...? Not that I have ever heard that term used before, ever.

A low of 20F and 72 hours below freezing isn't the end of the world either. All the Washingtonia and Phoenix will come through that, especially larger specimens. When you say "9b stuff" what are you talking about specifically? There aren't any Queens in New Orleans is there? And even still I would expect them to come through that still.

the frustrating thing for american palm lovers is how variable our zones are. i've seen giant 9b stuff all over spain and france along the med coasts. that doesn't happen here on the gulf coast. we don't have stable winters at all here. 

[thyerr01]

Unfortunately I am getting nowhere near enough snow melt. We'll be going into tonight with a substantial amount of snow on the ground and covering everything I tried to protect.

Is there any consensus on whether to remove snow from:

- Plants covered with lights
- Plants covered, but no lights
- Plants uncovered

I assume for the first two it makes little difference given the covers are hopefully trapping in heat from the lights or ground. 

[Subtropical LIS]

16 minutes ago, Xenon said:

New Orleans is a queen palm jungle, thousands of 'em. The last bastion of queens along the western Gulf on I-10 after Houston got nuked in 2021. 

Their survival all depends on the overnight temp. How low will it go?? Nobody knows, forecasts all over the place. 

Yes, hope all those queen palms do ok, they are what makes New Orleans so nice.

What I think will be interesting to watch (and I think it also plays a role here on the Atlantic Coast/East Coast as well)...is how much are SST (sea surface temps) helping/hurting one part of the Gulf compared to another.

Right now, SST are really cool off the North Texas coast (13 C/55 F)....while the warm(ish) for winter 18 C/68 F line is close to the FL Panhandle. It will be interesting to see if this impacts how many hrs the snow cover lasts as well as the ultimate lows:

 

[Dwarf Fan]

Corpus Christi is now up to 37F with small ice chunks still lingering in the shade but mostly all ice has melted. North Padre dipped to down to 31.8F ultimate low and we are looking at 33F tonight.

[Victor likes palms]

1 hour ago, Xenon said:

New Orleans is a queen palm jungle, thousands of 'em. The last bastion of queens along the western Gulf on I-10 after Houston got nuked in 2021. 

Their survival all depends on the overnight temp. How low will it go?? Nobody knows, forecasts all over the place. 

Realistically how low could they take?

[UK_Palms]

Ahhh hell no. All this cold has fired up the jet stream and it is causing knock on effects on this side of the pond. 944mb pressure before landfall on this monster ffs…

There’s no way we can be dealing with 175mph winds on Friday from this system. The models have to be wrong. That is the equivalent of a Category 4 hurricane making landfall. Directly linked to what is going on with the cold plunge across eastern half of USA. Eughhhh…

Also further proof of just how hard it is to get snow in London and southern England nowadays… has New Orleans actually reached 10 inches…? That’s ridiculous if true.

 

Pensacola Beach in Florida with more snow than anywhere on the south coast of England since god knows when. Going back at least until Feb 2018 I suspect… maybe even 2010…

[mthteh1916]

time to re up this great article from Dan Gill the New Orleans garden columnist. 

https://www.nola.com/entertainment_life/home_garden/repeated-freezes-are-tough-on-tropical-plants-but-new-orleans-gardens-have-been-through-worse/article_c8afe982-b5b4-569f-9ac7-4e038383f1f1.html

 

I began my horticultural career in 1980 when I was hired as an LSU AgCenter extension horticulturist in Orleans Parish. During the '80s, temperatures dipped down into the upper teens every few years in New Orleans. That chilly decade culminated in the catastrophic freeze of December 1989. Occurring just before Christmas that year, temperatures in New Orleans reached 11 degrees and stayed below freezing for three straight days.

In the midst of the freeze, I remember looking out a window at the snow and ice and actually shedding tears. I knew this freeze would destroy much of the unique beauty provided by our tropical plants, and it simply broke my heart.

And, indeed, the freezes were devastating to area landscapes. Golden rain trees (Koelreuteria bipinnata) and camphor trees (Cinnamomum camphora) were widely planted, and every single one was killed. I remember flying into New Orleans in June 1990 and seeing so many dead trees it almost looked like winter. Many people had to completely change their landscape plantings, as yards previously shaded by 30-year-old rain trees were drenched in sun.

In the midst of the freeze, I remember looking out a window at the snow and ice and actually shedding tears. I knew this freeze would destroy much of the unique beauty provided by our tropical plants, and it simply broke my heart.

And, indeed, the freezes were devastating to area landscapes. Golden rain trees (Koelreuteria bipinnata) and camphor trees (Cinnamomum camphora) were widely planted, and every single one was killed. I remember flying into New Orleans in June 1990 and seeing so many dead trees it almost looked like winter. Many people had to completely change their landscape plantings, as yards previously shaded by 30-year-old rain trees were drenched in sun.

There were dead palms everywhere. All but a few of the hardiest palms species were largely wiped out.

[DTS]

20 minutes ago, UK_Palms said:

Ahhh hell no. All this cold has fired up the jet stream and it is causing knock on effects on this side of the pond. 944mb pressure before landfall on this monster ffs…

There’s no way we can be dealing with 175mph winds on Friday from this system. The models have to be wrong. That is the equivalent of a Category 4 hurricane making landfall. Directly linked to what is going on with the cold plunge across eastern half of USA. Eughhhh…

Also further proof of just how hard it is to get snow in London and southern England nowadays… has New Orleans actually reached 10 inches…? That’s ridiculous if true.

 

Pensacola Beach in Florida with more snow than anywhere on the south coast of England since god knows when. Going back at least until Feb 2018 I suspect… maybe even 2010…

How does New Orelans have that much more snow than me-

[ahosey01]

Hot take but this is kind of what makes me enjoy Texas palm growing cause it builds some gardener character.

[NC_Palms]

3 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Hot take but this is kind of what makes me enjoy Texas palm growing cause it builds some gardener character.

Lol literally my take in NC. You can grow whatever you want if your'e creative enough lol 

[JeskiM]

2 hours ago, mthteh1916 said:

like I said with the deep snow cover they have NOLA not going above 32F until thursday. NOLA has loads of 9b stuff or at least did until the last few brutal years. 

Agreed.  No one is going above 32 with a foot of snow on the ground.  It will be hard to do that with full sun and high pressure until some of that snow can start melting.  On a clear night the temps will plummet. Teens are indeed possible.

-Matt

[JeskiM]

13 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

Hot take but this is kind of what makes me enjoy Texas palm growing cause it builds some gardener character.

LOL.   Indeed.    We are all characters here.  For sure we are a merry band of risk takers. 

Speaking only for myself;  I will always push zones a bit, both in pots and in ground. .... it's the only way I could enjoy a plant that otherwise I would never be able to see daily (99% of the time in a year).

You mourn the loss and move on.  A dead plant gives you the opportunity to try something new or re-try, etc 

That's my 2 cents.

-Matt

[Arecaceus]

1 hour ago, mthteh1916 said:

the frustrating thing for american palm lovers is how variable our zones are. i've seen giant 9b stuff all over spain and france along the med coasts. that doesn't happen here on the gulf coast. we don't have stable winters at all here. 

I think the main reason are the westerly winds on the northern hemisphere and how much coastline most of Europe has compared to landmass. Palm tree growing areas of Europe are more comparable to the west coast of North America. The Mediterranean is more comparable to most of California. Also the mountain ranges that protect the west coast like the Alps and other do for the Mediterranean.

[SailorBold]

5 hours ago, Tropicdoc said:

I thought I was planted for my zone……

 

Holy moly

[Swolte]

2 hours ago, thyerr01 said:

Unfortunately I am getting nowhere near enough snow melt. We'll be going into tonight with a substantial amount of snow on the ground and covering everything I tried to protect.

Is there any consensus on whether to remove snow from:

- Plants covered with lights
- Plants covered, but no lights
- Plants uncovered

I assume for the first two it makes little difference given the covers are hopefully trapping in heat from the lights or ground. 

Yes, if you need to exert effort, I would just remove snow from uncovered plants.  Good luck!

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

Hot take but this is kind of what makes me enjoy Texas palm growing cause it builds some gardener character.

I am about to reach a state of learned helplessness. 

[Keys6505]

1 hour ago, ahosey01 said:

Hot take but this is kind of what makes me enjoy Texas palm growing cause it builds some gardener character.

I have a Licuala Spinosa going in the ground as soon as the snow melts.

[ahosey01]

29 minutes ago, Keys6505 said:

I have a Licuala Spinosa going in the ground as soon as the snow melts.

A more Texas palm grower statement has never been written.

[DAVEinMB]

4 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

@DAVEinMB what about your neck of the woods

David is not happy. 

[Subtropical LIS]

16 minutes ago, ahosey01 said:

A more Texas palm grower statement has never been written.

Looking at the NWS F6 outputs tonight...I think for you guys in deep south Texas, from Brownsville/Mc Allen north along the Gulf to at least Corpus...the event is pretty much over.  A cold night tonight (lows near 30 F)...then then getting warmer each day. 70 F by this weekend: