Which Livistona? Nasty Thorns

[Xerarch]

I acquired these Livistona as decora, and assumed that was what they were, but a friend called it into question because of how long and skinny these thorns are on the petiole. Thoughts please? I’ve had them in the ground for a year, they’ve grown nicely  

[DoomsDave]

Look more like saribus. 
 

 

[kinzyjr]

I'm with @DoomsDave.  The Livistona decora thorns are more like a sticky saw blade.  It's not good to get skin caught on them when you are moving around.  Those look more like Livistona saribus.  At that age, they poke you and break off so you have to dig it out.

[Harry’s Palms]

The Livistona I have are down on my hill due to the “teeth “ they have on their petiole . I have L. Chinensis and L. Australis , neither have thorns like the picture you posted. I would go with what the others have said. Beautiful palms but beware. Harry

[Albey]

No - Not Decora. I have decora - will post photos soon.

[Nico971]

Hi ! Here is my young decora, so quiet different 

 

[TropicsEnjoyer]

As others said, that looks very much like L. saribus teeth. Long and vicious

Beautiful palm either way. 

[DoomsDave]

@Xerarch great thread!

I say that because you got me to pay. attention to some beauties in my garden I'd been ignoring. 

Below is my L. saribus, which I've had in the ground for like 10-15 years, and it's about 8 feet tall overall, towering overhead, still no trunk, but pretty nevertheless. Not the sort of thing I'd want to stuff into my shorts. 

Cool and fascinating in its way; native to Southeast Asia, but also cold tolerant - maybe some interesting ancient history in there somewhere? - and eventually really tall to like 120 feet (40 M). https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Livistona_saribus

 

[Harry’s Palms]

@DoomsDave Ouch!!! If I were a rodent , I would look elsewhere for a snack. Harry

[Fusca]

1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

@Xerarch great thread!

I say that because you got me to pay. attention to some beauties in my garden I'd been ignoring. 

Below is my L. saribus, which I've had in the ground for like 10-15 years, and it's about 8 feet tall overall, towering overhead, still no trunk, but pretty nevertheless. Not the sort of thing I'd want to stuff into my shorts. 

Cool and fascinating in its way; native to Southeast Asia, but also cold tolerant - maybe some interesting ancient history in there somewhere? - and eventually really tall to like 120 feet (40 M). https://palmpedia.net/wiki/Livistona_saribus

 

That looks more like a Livistona chinensis - I don't think it's saribus.  Nice looking palm! Here's my young green-petiole saribus which is only about 3' overall height and already showing the characteristic thorns. 

[DoomsDave]

@Fusca you may be right. If so, I stand corrected. I recall that the spines used to be larger, or at least appeared so. It's not as droopy looking as the L. chinensis I've seen in pictures all over.

Maybe a hybrid?

[TropicsEnjoyer]

Question - do livistonas mind being transplanted or are they chill about it? I have a young seed grown chinensis and i’m debating about what to do with in next year, either keep in pot or put in ground somewhere. But before i ground it i’d like to know if it’s easy to move for future reference.

[Fusca]

1 minute ago, DoomsDave said:

@Fusca you may be right. If so, I stand corrected. I recall that the spines used to be larger, or at least appeared so. It's not as droopy looking as the L. chinensis I've seen in pictures all over.

Maybe a hybrid?

I had a juvenile chinensis with thorns very similar to yours (vicious!) but my mature chinensis has minimal to no petiole thorns. 

[DoomsDave]

So @Xerarch, knowing what we now do, I'll offer some further thoughts:

Your livistonas are thorny devils like mine, and others and those usually grow more slowly, at least trunk-wise than species like decora or drudei. Think maybe 5 - 10 feet over 20 years for the former, and 25 - 40 feet or more for the latter.  So instead of canopy, more like a decorative border. Or a barrier to invading nudists . . . 

I reiterate @TropicsEnjoyer's question about Livistonas taking transplant. I know they plant from pots easy, but curious to know if they can be dug and moved, like, say, Washies.

[Merlyn]

@DoomsDave your palm looks like it could be one of the "other Livistona" or closely related species.  Take a look at pictures of Saribus Rotundifolia or Robinsoniana, Livistona Speciosa or Jenkinsiana.  Those are just the first names that popped into my head.  Here's some small ones in my yard, Saribus on the left and Speciosa/Jenkinsiana on the right.  These had hurricane winds a couple of months ago, so the droopiness might not be normal:

And the thorns on the Livistona Speciosa/Jenkinsiana:

And the ridiculous stabbiness of Saribus Rotundifolia/Robinsoniana:

I have noticed that my bigger Livistona Chinensis have lost most of the thorns.  They were ridiculously thorny when younger, but only maybe 3-5 big thorns now that they are older.  There's a bad joke in there somewhere...

[Jim in Los Altos]

3 hours ago, Fusca said:

That looks more like a Livistona chinensis - I don't think it's saribus.  Nice looking palm! Here's my young green-petiole saribus which is only about 3' overall height and already showing the characteristic thorns. 

I have five maturing L. chinensis and three have completely smooth petioles. The other two have VERY small teeth. Saribus, on the other hand, are viscous! 
 

[Xerarch]

2 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

So @Xerarch, knowing what we now do, I'll offer some further thoughts:

Your livistonas are thorny devils like mine, and others and those usually grow more slowly, at least trunk-wise than species like decora or drudei. Think maybe 5 - 10 feet over 20 years for the former, and 25 - 40 feet or more for the latter.  So instead of canopy, more like a decorative border. Or a barrier to invading nudists . . . 

I reiterate @TropicsEnjoyer's question about Livistonas taking transplant. I know they plant from pots easy, but curious to know if they can be dug and moved, like, say, Washies.

And of course I went and planted these right next to the sidewalk, at the time of planting they were tiny and I wasn't too concerned about the then small thorns.  Now they're a different story.  They've grown a ton in a year though, I hope they're not so darn slow.  I was hoping to keep them trimmed off the sidewalk for a few years until they got some trunk to keep that canopy up higher. 

[DoomsDave]

A spirited argument  over OP ID appears to have ensued! 

 

[DoomsDave]

3 minutes ago, Xerarch said:

And of course I went and planted these right next to the sidewalk, at the time of planting they were tiny and I wasn't too concerned about the then small thorns.  Now they're a different story.  They've grown a ton in a year though, I hope they're not so darn slow.  I was hoping to keep them trimmed off the sidewalk for a few years until they got some trunk to keep that canopy up higher. 

Livistonas do vary in growth rate by species, that I can say for sure. Getting a positive ID can be tricky sometimes. Perhaps they'll grow faster in your much longer warm season for you than they do for me. 

If push comes to shove, it might be worth considering a dig and move operation, and reiterate @TropicsEnjoyer's question about ease of transplantation.

[kinzyjr]

36 minutes ago, DoomsDave said:

A spirited argument  over OP ID appears to have ensued! 

At this point, it could be either.  I also have some Livistona chinensis that have epic thorns:

Livistona chinensis #1 - near the door to the patio

Livistona chinensis #2 - near the banana bed

We'll know for sure in a few years.

[DoomsDave]

Maybe our good friend @Phoenikakias can provide his sage, learned thoughts!

[Merlyn]

1 hour ago, DoomsDave said:

If push comes to shove, it might be worth considering a dig and move operation, and reiterate @TropicsEnjoyer's question about ease of transplantation.

I had no problems separating big overgrown pots of seedlings, and no problems transplanting small ones about 1' tall.  But when I moved some 2-3' tall ones I had about 50/50 success.  @TropicsEnjoyer it all depends on how replaceable it is...Chinensis are cheap and readily available so I'd say plant it and hope to not move it.  I've lost Mariae, Saribus, and Speciosa by trying to transplant them.

[DoomsDave]

4 minutes ago, Merlyn said:

I had no problems separating big overgrown pots of seedlings, and no problems transplanting small ones about 1' tall.  But when I moved some 2-3' tall ones I had about 50/50 success.  @TropicsEnjoyer it all depends on how replaceable it is...Chinensis are cheap and readily available so I'd say plant it and hope to not move it.  I've lost Mariae, Saribus, and Speciosa by trying to transplant them.

Maybe try some tricks to improve the odds:

1. Dig and put in a pot, in good potting soil mixed with native dirt, out of the wind and sun;

2. Keep well-watered but well-drained; 

3. Hit with Miracle-Gro or the like which will push root growth.

4. Nudge the base periodically and check to see if it's pushing new growth before planting in the ground.

Moving from one spot in the ground to another can work, but it's tough. 

[Harry’s Palms]

The L. Chinensis of mine is very slow growing. , even slower than Brahea Armata. This is about 23 years from a 10” pot I got for $10 . Harry

It is just beginning to get a nice sized trunk . The teeth are not at all like the OP ‘s Livistona but very brutal when I try to cut dead fronds. Interesting that @Jim in Los Altos has three with no teeth at all . Perhaps environmental? This one is full sun south facing slope. 

[kinzyjr]

@TropicsEnjoyer I've moved just about all of them around here at one point or another.  The one that liked it the least was Livistona saribus.  For me, they are all easy to replace since there are so many seeding specimens around, so swing for the fence.  I just moved one of the Livistona chinensis (smaller than the one I photographed to show spines) and it is actually growing faster in its new spot.

[Xerarch]

39 minutes ago, kinzyjr said:

@TropicsEnjoyer I've moved just about all of them around here at one point or another.  The one that liked it the least was Livistona saribus.  For me, they are all easy to replace since there are so many seeding specimens around, so swing for the fence.  I just moved one of the Livistona chinensis (smaller than the one I photographed to show spines) and it is actually growing faster in its new spot.

Unfortunately in these parts L chinensis is the only Livistona that is commonly seen at all, any other member of the genus here are nearly absent unless you know an oddball that has one in their yard.  And none are for sale at all, there is really a lack of imagination in the variety of palms for sale, I've scarcely ever seen a livistona for sale, and that's maybe only trunking chinensis, so whatever it is I have, is not easily replaceable locally.   

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

Interesting that @Jim in Los Altos has three with no teeth at all . Perhaps environmental?

I think @Jim in Los Altos is right about the variation in L. chinensis as he said in another thread.  My mature palm has smooth petioles as does this seedling I grew from its seeds.  It's fully palmate and I think the petioles will continue to stay smooth.  Seems to be an inherited trait.

[Fusca]

2 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

@TropicsEnjoyer I've moved just about all of them around here at one point or another.  The one that liked it the least was Livistona saribus.  For me, they are all easy to replace since there are so many seeding specimens around, so swing for the fence.  I just moved one of the Livistona chinensis (smaller than the one I photographed to show spines) and it is actually growing faster in its new spot.

I've only moved three juvenile Livistonas and all three did not make it, although all three moves were not timed well (summer during drought).  The three were muellerii, decora and saribus.

[Phoenikakias]

9 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

The L. Chinensis of mine is very slow growing. , even slower than Brahea Armata. This is about 23 years from a 10” pot I got for $10 . Harry

It is just beginning to get a nice sized trunk . The teeth are not at all like the OP ‘s Livistona but very brutal when I try to cut dead fronds. Interesting that @Jim in Los Altos has three with no teeth at all . Perhaps environmental? This one is full sun south facing slope. 

It grows in a slope, does it have a bowl around base and how often is it irrigated? I found mine as moderate grower but it gets a lot of water, if not in frequency surely in quantity (very deep bowl like planter)

[Harry’s Palms]

@Phoenikakias I just dug a hole and planted it . When it was very young it had river rocks around it and I mixed garden soil with the dirt to create easy water drainage to the root ball. It is towards the bottom of a large slope so the ground is moist . I water every week , frequency depends on time of year and climate . I do not fertilize on the hill. During the summer , I water twice a week with intermittent sprinklers for 20 minutes or so . A couple of years ago I went down there to plant my 5 gallon L. Australis and I dug a pretty large hole . The soil was rich looking and moist , I hadn’t watered in almost a week . I have a lot of medium to large rocks , ,like @happypalms , in my soil which I use as border around planter beds or newly planted palms on the slope. Harry

[Harry’s Palms]

12 hours ago, Fusca said:

I think @Jim in Los Altos is right about the variation in L. chinensis as he said in another thread.  My mature palm has smooth petioles as does this seedling I grew from its seeds.  It's fully palmate and I think the petioles will continue to stay smooth.  Seems to be an inherited trait.

‘That is about the size mine was when I planted it . Mine had much shorter petioles , I think it was sun grown. I can’t remember if it had teeth at that stage , I’m thinking it did . That’s why I planted it down the hill. Another curious feature of this genus is its ability to continue growing after a gopher attack! Both of mine have been snacks for dubious gophers . My gardener is good at trapping the varmints.  Harry

[Phoenikakias]

4 hours ago, Harry’s Palms said:

@Phoenikakias I just dug a hole and planted it . When it was very young it had river rocks around it and I mixed garden soil with the dirt to create easy water drainage to the root ball. It is towards the bottom of a large slope so the ground is moist . I water every week , frequency depends on time of year and climate . I do not fertilize on the hill. During the summer , I water twice a week with intermittent sprinklers for 20 minutes or so . A couple of years ago I went down there to plant my 5 gallon L. Australis and I dug a pretty large hole . The soil was rich looking and moist , I hadn’t watered in almost a week . I have a lot of medium to large rocks , ,like @happypalms , in my soil which I use as border around planter beds or newly planted palms on the slope. Harry

Then your soil must be quite sandy! I can not find any other more convincing explanation, provided that both our plants are genuine L chinensis

Crown from first floor and ground level

[Phoenikakias]

I have pictures of the fallen dry leaves of my mature L decora and of a trunking juvenile one as well for display of the spines. In such stage of growth level  decora leaves have a very pronounced costa and an even more impressive hastula! Last picture shows spines of a trunking but still juvenile L australis for comparison!

a

[TropicsEnjoyer]

Thanks @DoomsDavefor pushing my question haha, and @Merlyn& @kinzyjrfor the input. 

Very interesting discussion as well.

[happypalms]

22 hours ago, DoomsDave said:

Maybe try some tricks to improve the odds:

1. Dig and put in a pot, in good potting soil mixed with native dirt, out of the wind and sun;

2. Keep well-watered but well-drained; 

3. Hit with Miracle-Gro or the like which will push root growth.

4. Nudge the base periodically and check to see if it's pushing new growth before planting in the ground.

Moving from one spot in the ground to another can work, but it's tough. 

Now @DoomsDave I would not use a salt based fertiliser like miracle grow on transplants. If anything i would use seaweed extract for a vitamin B stress relief in a weak solution. There has been many a great debate on palm talk about miracle grow. 

[ahosey01]

On 12/30/2024 at 8:36 PM, Xerarch said:

I acquired these Livistona as decora, and assumed that was what they were, but a friend called it into question because of how long and skinny these thorns are on the petiole. Thoughts please? I’ve had them in the ground for a year, they’ve grown nicely  

The deeply palmate character of these makes them almost certainly saribus hybrids.  They're at least partly saribus unquestionably, but I don't think they're pure because saribus leaves are not so deeply palmate.

Do you have any more because I just had a livistona die that I need replace and this would be a good contender, lol

[Xerarch]

22 hours ago, ahosey01 said:

The deeply palmate character of these makes them almost certainly saribus hybrids.  They're at least partly saribus unquestionably, but I don't think they're pure because saribus leaves are not so deeply palmate.

Do you have any more because I just had a livistona die that I need replace and this would be a good contender, lol

Unfortunately I just have these two, stay tuned in to the Palm Society of South Texas and you will find members with a variety of Livistona, perhaps a member may have some nice seedlings or something.

[sonoranfans]

The thorns on my saribus(8' trunk) are thick and look like a medieval weapon.  Everything I see here are slender thorns, mine are 1/5 to 1/4 of an inch thick at the petiole close to the trunk and 1.5+ inches long.  They get smaller away from the trunk.  I dont remember what they looked like as a 5 gallon palm, not especially notable vs some other palms.  These days it looks like copernicia alba thorns on steriods, thick nasty and blackish.  

[Fusca]

On 12/31/2024 at 2:41 PM, Merlyn said:

And the thorns on the Livistona Speciosa/Jenkinsiana:

And the ridiculous stabbiness of Saribus Rotundifolia/Robinsoniana:

Probably can't tell from this photo, but the thorns on my Livistona nitida are somewhere in between the speciosa and the rotundifolia as far as stabbiness but the color is closer to the rotundifolia.