Phoenix theophrastii

[Borosbobo]

Hey guys!

does anyone have experience with growing a Phoenix theophrastii?

can you tell me about its cold hardiness and stuff like that? (own experience) 

also your pictures would be appreciated

[gyuseppe]

Hello
do you live in Hungary?
the Phoenix theophrasti resists the cold only in southern Italy, in northern Italy it dies from the cold
at the botanical garden of Naples there are some Phoenix theophrasti

[Fusca]

Here is a photo of my Phoenix theophrasti from when I lived in San Antonio.  It grew very well but did not survive 9°F (-13°C) unprotected back in 2021.  No visible damage at 20°F (-7°C).  At this size it had already started suckering.

 

[Steve in Florida]

I had two over .80 meters tall and one or more nights at -8.33 Celcius with heavy frost killed them.  They had previously endured -10 C in the high tunnel with no damage.   A Phoenix sylvestris 'Robusta', my only Phoenix palm out of many tried that survived, is getting huge now

[kinzyjr]

The big issue I have with them here is leaf spot.  In a more Mediterranean climate, they don't appear to have the issue.  My solution has been to keep one in a pot, fill the top third of the pot with stones, keep it under an eave when it rains, and water it without wetting the fronds.

[Phoenikakias]

3 hours ago, kinzyjr said:

The big issue I have with them here is leaf spot.  In a more Mediterranean climate, they don't appear to have the issue.  My solution has been to keep one in a pot, fill the top third of the pot with stones, keep it under an eave when it rains, and water it without wetting the fronds.

Theophrasti does not like cool and very moist combination! It will die readily as a seedling exposed to such conditions.  I mean of course in my cold frame, where air moisture is very high and irrigation takes place through sprinklers.  Outdoors however is a different story because of fresh air,  more sun and draughts.  Hybrids theo x dacty and dacty x theo are definitely scoring better in such cold frame conditions but champ is a certain dacty cv the mazafati! Latter turned out completely bullet proof in cool, moist and super shady conditions all together!!! I did not lose a single seedling among a few dozens.

[Borosbobo]

14 hours ago, gyuseppe said:

Hello
do you live in Hungary?
the Phoenix theophrasti resists the cold only in southern Italy, in northern Italy it dies from the cold
at the botanical garden of Naples there are some Phoenix theophrasti

Hello yes but we would do winter protection. Heat is as well is needed. We have a Phoenix canarensis as well

[Borosbobo]

13 hours ago, Fusca said:

Here is a photo of my Phoenix theophrasti from when I lived in San Antonio.  It grew very well but did not survive 9°F (-13°C) unprotected back in 2021.  No visible damage at 20°F (-7°C).  At this size it had already started suckering.

 

Thank you!

[Borosbobo]

9 hours ago, Steve in Florida said:

I had two over .80 meters tall and one or more nights at -8.33 Celcius with heavy frost killed them.  They had previously endured -10 C in the high tunnel with no damage.   A Phoenix sylvestris 'Robusta', my only Phoenix palm out of many tried that survived, is getting huge now

Thank you! Do you maybe have pictures of them?

we have a sylvestris and a canarensis

[edbrown_III]

I gotta hunt up  more Photos --- been growing them since about 1990 --- probably has seen 19°F ,-7°. I have about 3 more around the yard -----good grower fer me .  got the seeds from Iraklion Crete

[Borosbobo]

On 1/12/2025 at 2:20 AM, edbrown_III said:

I gotta hunt up  more Photos --- been growing them since about 1990 --- probably has seen 19°F ,-7°. I have about 3 more around the yard -----good grower fer me .  got the seeds from Iraklion Crete

oh wow beautiful!

 

[Arecaceus]

On 1/11/2025 at 8:04 AM, Phoenikakias said:

Theophrasti does not like cool and very moist combination! It will die readily as a seedling exposed to such conditions.  I mean of course in my cold frame, where air moisture is very high and irrigation takes place through sprinklers.  Outdoors however is a different story because of fresh air,  more sun and draughts.  Hybrids theo x dacty and dacty x theo are definitely scoring better in such cold frame conditions but champ is a certain dacty cv the mazafati! Latter turned out completely bullet proof in cool, moist and super shady conditions all together!!! I did not lose a single seedling among a few dozens.

Interesting what you say about Mazafati because I've sown some seeds from supermarket dates of Mazafati and they're still in a community pot with no drainage! And they're going through the second winter. The wet container has even been exposed to temps of -5°C last year and most of them still look fine. That's why I started to think about planting one out in a good spot. Before I was hesitant with P. dactylifera in our cool/cold wet winters.

[Phoenikakias]

26 minutes ago, Arecaceus said:

Interesting what you say about Mazafati because I've sown some seeds from supermarket dates of Mazafati and they're still in a community pot with no drainage! And they're going through the second winter. The wet container has even been exposed to temps of -5°C last year and most of them still look fine. That's why I started to think about planting one out in a good spot. Before I was hesitant with P. dactylifera in our cool/cold wet winters.

Have you compared it with P theophrasti under same conditions? R your mozafati seedlings blue?

[Arecaceus]

35 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Have you compared it with P theophrasti under same conditions? R your mozafati seedlings blue?

I'm currently growing a small Theophrastii in my garden at a different spot. It's going through it's 2. or 3. winter not sure anymore. Had fleece cover protection during the last winter cold snap. No I don't think they are blue. I think they look like P. canariensis but stiffer.

[Phoenikakias]

Obtained as seeds or as whole dates?

[Arecaceus]

5 minutes ago, Phoenikakias said:

Obtained as seeds or as whole dates?

Full dates from the supermarket. It was just for fun. I think the Mazafatis I buy are all from Iran.

[Phoenikakias]

11 hours ago, Arecaceus said:

Interesting what you say about Mazafati because I've sown some seeds from supermarket dates of Mazafati and they're still in a community pot with no drainage! And they're going through the second winter. The wet container has even been exposed to temps of -5°C last year and most of them still look fine. That's why I started to think about planting one out in a good spot. Before I was hesitant with P. dactylifera in our cool/cold wet winters.

Is Duesseldorf in the "Koelner Bucht"? 

[Arecaceus]

1 hour ago, Phoenikakias said:

Is Duesseldorf in the "Koelner Bucht"? 

Yes

[UK_Palms]

Theophrastii is definitely more leaf hardy than Canariensis, which is evidenced by the one out near Heathrow airport in the far western suburbs of London. There is less UHI where this one is growing and being further inland the temperature in winter can get much lower. Heathrow had -8.4C during the 22/23 winter, which was its coldest temperature since the 1987 freeze. Yet this Theophrastii looks absolutely fine and has never been protected, even during the 2010 and 2018 events. The fact there aren’t any CIDP’s or Washingtonia as impressive looking as this in the far western London suburbs suggests that Theophrastii is much more leaf hardy and handles the cold better.

 

I would say mature Theophrastii is leaf hardy down to about -9C / 16F, compared to only -7C / 20F for CIDP. The latter is bud hardy down to about -20C / -5F in optimum conditions (it has come back from this in New Mexico and Texas), but it remains to be seen just how bud hardy Theophrastii actually is. I would have thought it would be fairly similar though. But it is certainly a bit more leaf hardy than CIDP in southern England. Of course the duration of a freeze is also going to be just as much of a factor as the absolute minimum as well though.

[Mishaq]

I was really keen to grow a theophrasti here in the UK. Mine spear pulled recently in its first winter. I chopped it down and plan to plant a trachycarpus wagnerianus x princeps instead to keep the blue theme going.

[fr8train]

Here's mine I've grown from seed sourced from RPS years ago. There's a thread about someone experimenting with one in central Texas here that mentions its hardiness:

 

[UK_Palms]

7 hours ago, Mishaq said:

I was really keen to grow a theophrasti here in the UK. Mine spear pulled recently in its first winter. I chopped it down and plan to plant a trachycarpus wagnerianus x princeps instead to keep the blue theme going.

You live in Sheffield. I don't even know of a single CIDP or Washingtonia that is successfully growing in Sheffield. So I doubt Theophrastii will survive there either for you. I know of that one CIDP right in the city centre of Leeds, which is arguably the most zone pushed CIDP in the world really. So unless you are right in the city centre of Sheffield, I doubt you benefit from enough UHI to grow Theophrastii, or much else besides Trachycarpus, Chamaerops Cerifera, Jubaea, Sabal Minor, Needles etc. Maybe Butia there. I would stick to these proper heady types.

Also mature flowering Theophrastii with say 2 metres of trunk are leaf hardy down to about -9C and probably bud hardy to about -15C to -18C here in the UK even, providing the freeze isn't any longer than a week or so and they are decent sized established palms. Not that it will even get as cold as that in areas where they can be more reliably grown with minimal protection early on. A little one however is going to defoliate/spear pull from about -7C and struggle to come back. -10C will kill a small one outright, or it will rot and decline from spear pulls, combined with slow growth rate and poor spring/summers up north.

So you really need to protect them during the first decade or so in more northern regions, to prevent any damage, until they attain more size and comeback ability. You need that thick trunk. But even then you would struggle in Sheffield outside of the city centre probably.

[Mishaq]

11 hours ago, UK_Palms said:

You live in Sheffield. I don't even know of a single CIDP or Washingtonia that is successfully growing in Sheffield. So I doubt Theophrastii will survive there either for you. I know of that one CIDP right in the city centre of Leeds, which is arguably the most zone pushed CIDP in the world really. So unless you are right in the city centre of Sheffield, I doubt you benefit from enough UHI to grow Theophrastii, or much else besides Trachycarpus, Chamaerops Cerifera, Jubaea, Sabal Minor, Needles etc. Maybe Butia there. I would stick to these proper heady types.

Also mature flowering Theophrastii with say 2 metres of trunk are leaf hardy down to about -9C and probably bud hardy to about -15C to -18C here in the UK even, providing the freeze isn't any longer than a week or so and they are decent sized established palms. Not that it will even get as cold as that in areas where they can be more reliably grown with minimal protection early on. A little one however is going to defoliate/spear pull from about -7C and struggle to come back. -10C will kill a small one outright, or it will rot and decline from spear pulls, combined with slow growth rate and poor spring/summers up north.

So you really need to protect them during the first decade or so in more northern regions, to prevent any damage, until they attain more size and comeback ability. You need that thick trunk. But even then you would struggle in Sheffield outside of the city centre probably.

My neighbour has a 3m tall clump of washintonia robustas which grows very rapidly. I've seen plenty of mature CIDPs around sheffield too, I'll get some photos if I remember.

 

The problem with my theophrastii was I didn't protect it at all, had it been coveted during the snow we faced recently I suspect it would've been fine. As have all my CIDPs and washis.

[Mishaq]

Here are a couple examples of palms thriving in sheffield. My neighbours washingtonia is now double the height than it is in this picture from 3 years ago. The CIDP is also far bigger this year. 

 

These are just two examples of these palms doing well in Yorkshire, I can think of many more.